Just finished our first session of Rise of the Runelords using the Beta rules.
Overall, no major issues. We would prefer more clarification on Hand of the Apprentice from the Universalist school, but that was already mentioned.
However, as a DM, I had trouble adjudicating the Perception skill when used like Search. The Search skill implied that the character was touching objects in order to find things. Perception doesn't indicate that so I have to ask the player if they are doing so. Also, there is a skill/ability to searching that is different than sight-only based perception, so I was wondering whether or not the Elf Wizard's Sight bonus applied.
Any help or clarification on these issues would be great.
Thanks
Just finished our first session of Rise of the Runelords using the Beta rules.
Overall, no major issues. We would prefer more clarification on Hand of the Apprentice from the Universalist school, but that was already mentioned.
However, as a DM, I had trouble adjudicating the Perception skill when used like Search. The Search skill implied that the character was touching objects in order to find things. Perception doesn't indicate that so I have to ask the player if they are doing so. Also, there is a skill/ability to searching that is different than sight-only based perception, so I was wondering whether or not the Elf Wizard's Sight bonus applied.
Any help or clarification on these issues would be great.
Thanks
The tables listed for each sense are pretty specific. E.g., searching for secret doors and traps is listed under Sight, "searching" for people listening is listed under Sound, "searching" for perfume is listed under Smell, etc.
The tables listed for each sense are pretty specific. E.g., searching for secret doors and traps is listed under Sight, "searching" for people listening is listed under Sound, "searching" for perfume is listed under Smell, etc.Just finished our first session of Rise of the Runelords using the Beta rules.
Overall, no major issues. We would prefer more clarification on Hand of the Apprentice from the Universalist school, but that was already mentioned.
However, as a DM, I had trouble adjudicating the Perception skill when used like Search. The Search skill implied that the character was touching objects in order to find things. Perception doesn't indicate that so I have to ask the player if they are doing so. Also, there is a skill/ability to searching that is different than sight-only based perception, so I was wondering whether or not the Elf Wizard's Sight bonus applied.
Any help or clarification on these issues would be great.
Thanks
I definitely saw that, but Searching for secret doors, usually, involves more than sight. Is this a big change? Well, it's only a big change if your game is reliant on traps that could be triggered by touch.
Allowing secret doors to be found just by sight doesn't allow for the character to know definitively its a secret door until they've used the activating mechanism.
So in this instance, I would change the way Perception detects secret doors at least.
In other circumstances, you usually do have to touch things multiple times in different ways using Search.
-I search the desk. (sight, touch, maybe smell)
-I search the chest. (same)
I just felt like the perception skill was refined for search when search worked perfectly for these examples.
Found a previous discussion of this and I'd like to bring it to the attention of the designers again. That's all.
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However, as a DM, I had trouble adjudicating the Perception skill when used like Search. The Search skill implied that the character was touching objects in order to find things. Perception doesn't indicate that so I have to ask the player if they are doing so.
Now that three skills (Listen, Spot and Search) have been collapsed into the Perception skill it seems to be in the "Must Take" category.
Lets take a perception check on that oak chest the players have found. The way I'm handling it is the DM's common sense takes precedence unless the player specifically says "I'm only looking the chest over.". The GM decides what five senses applies to the Perception check. This should handle about 90% of the situations you would run into.
In this particular case, the perception check on that oak chest would imply touch.
HawkOfMay.
p.s.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Elf Wizard's Sight" bonus. Are you talking about an Elf' "Keen Senses" racial trait?
p.s.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Elf Wizard's Sight" bonus. Are you talking about an Elf' "Keen Senses" racial trait?
Correct.
Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 bonus on sight- and
sound-based Perception checks. They can make a
Perception check to spot a secret or concealed door if they
pass within 10 feet, regardless of whether or not they are
actively looking.
Here's the specific play scenario from Burnt Offerings that we ran into...
Anyway, I didn't mean to rehash all the same arguments, I just wanted to add my play experience to the previous request for changes with this.
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I must say, I would like Search broken out of Perception myself. Perception as an automatic detection skill, whether through sound, touch, sight or smell makes sense to me - but Search, to me, is a fundamentally different thing. It requires not only sense, but interaction with the item / area in question. Broken out on its own it doesn't measure up to Perception in immportance, though...so something might need to be changed (Investigate, like from d20 Modern? I dunno...).
I must say, I would like Search broken out of Perception myself. Perception as an automatic detection skill, whether through sound, touch, sight or smell makes sense to me - but Search, to me, is a fundamentally different thing. It requires not only sense, but interaction with the item / area in question. Broken out on its own it doesn't measure up to Perception in immportance, though...so something might need to be changed (Investigate, like from d20 Modern? I dunno...).
From my own experiences running RotRL using the Alpha and Beta rules I'd have to agree. IMO Perception should be automatic and passive whereas Search should be a deliberate action and active. Search could be changed into something akin to the skill Investigation that some game systems have, that is, actively looking for hidden doors, traps or clues. It could even include a sort of basic forensic ability.
Also, Perception is definitely a must-have skill now. Every character in my group has a pretty much maxed-out Perception, since its easily the skill that gets rolled most often.
perception had been a must have in my group (you do want to act in surprise round right?) Im trying to hedge that out a bit. one solution is to allow for one perception roll to act as the group perception roll (you dont let everyone roll diplomacy, and take the highest do you?) If one person notices the threat, all he has to do is use a FREE ACTION to make his allies aware. IMHO legolas was the only one of the ranks in perception (Strider did have good ranks in survival though)
perception should be a niche, much like diplomacy or disable device (or stealth for that matter) this is a party game isnt it?
ranger elf stops the party and quietly tells them that "it sounds like orcs ahead" the human fighter rights himself and hustles forward into the now blown ambush
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I like perception as a combination of spot/listen. I miss Search, as well. I agree that it 'feels off' when making a perception check to notice something (like a secret door) that probably should require some amount of touching.
Because Search seems to involve a combination of senses, I think it is best as a distinct skill from Perception. Perception is being aware of things, Search is applying that awareness to a particular purpose. This is particularly true when it becomes important to determine how something is found... I would think that since many secret doors are designed so as not to be seen, they should get a bonus against 'spot based perception' (essentially a Hide check). They may still be revealed if their materials are different, or knocking along the wall reveals the 'hollow' sound...
I like perception as a combination of spot/listen. I miss Search, as well. I agree that it 'feels off' when making a perception check to notice something (like a secret door) that probably should require some amount of touching.
Because Search seems to involve a combination of senses, I think it is best as a distinct skill from Perception. Perception is being aware of things, Search is applying that awareness to a particular purpose. This is particularly true when it becomes important to determine how something is found... I would think that since many secret doors are designed so as not to be seen, they should get a bonus against 'spot based perception' (essentially a Hide check). They may still be revealed if their materials are different, or knocking along the wall reveals the 'hollow' sound...
I agree, Search has remained a separate skill for me.
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I would like to see SEARCH back in the skill list. Perception is to notice, Search is to analyze. IMHO
This is totally a wild pitch, but maybe consider folding Search into Appraise? It makes some sense (noticing fine detail, assessing discrepancies), and makes taking Appraise more attractive for spellcasters and rogues alike.
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I would like to see SEARCH back in the skill list. Perception is to notice, Search is to analyze. IMHOThis is totally a wild pitch, but maybe consider folding Search into Appraise? It makes some sense (noticing fine detail, assessing discrepancies), and makes taking Appraise more attractive for spellcasters and rogues alike.
Appraise should already be attractive to anyone with detect magic now...using appraise to find out what the item is and any trigger words, etc.
I have no problem using Perception as an active search skill, as it is just to perceive through the senses...you can't taste passively.
A dwarf would try to search for a secret door by tapping on the wall, and looking for differences in the joints of the stone. While an elf might try to look for the hairline cracks in the surface, and run his hand slightly over the surface feeling for drafts...
again, no problem for me, taking 20 would mean using all 5 senses to search the object.
1. to become aware of, know, or identify by means of the senses: I perceived an object looming through the mist.
2. to recognize, discern, envision, or understand:
p.s.
I'm not sure what you mean by "Elf Wizard's Sight" bonus. Are you talking about an Elf' "Keen Senses" racial trait?
Correct.
Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 bonus on sight- and
sound-based Perception checks. They can make a
Perception check to spot a secret or concealed door if they
pass within 10 feet, regardless of whether or not they are
actively looking.Here's the specific play scenario from Burnt Offerings that we ran into...
** spoiler omitted **
Anyway, I didn't mean to rehash all the same arguments, I just wanted to add my play experience to the previous request for changes with this.
That's why it's just a +2 bonus. A false bottom in the coffin with a hidden chamber beneath might be noticed because the elf is able to pick up on the spatial disparity, or maybe notice a tiny seam or rubbing on the cloth/wood interior where the false door opens etc.
...maybe we should go back to that graveyard and check out that coffin again.... lol!
That's why it's just a +2 bonus. A false bottom in the coffin with a hidden chamber beneath might be noticed because the elf is able to pick up on the spatial disparity, or maybe notice a tiny seam or rubbing on the cloth/wood interior where the false door opens etc....maybe we should go back to that graveyard and check out that coffin again.... lol!
Calm down Fatman! There's absolutely nothing intriguing about that coffin! NOTHING! How can I more vehemently deny this and at the same time intrigue you all the more? :)
*He plays in my group* :)
Spot and Search are different because you can't necessarily spot something you could find while searching for.
If you will remember- assuming you saw it- the 2nd Indiana Jones movie, the room with the falling ceiling.
Spotting didn't help because the "release" was visusally obscured. It wasn't until they stuck hand into the "hole" that it was found.. and used.
That aside however I agree that the inclusion of "Perception" has only streamlined the character sheet. It has made game play itself alot more difficult because you have one skill with various modifiers to it depending on the situation such that it tends to slow game down rather than speed it up. Instead of asking "is that spot or search?" you now have to figure out what part of "perception" it is so you can apply (or not apply) whatever bonuses or penalties you may have to those rolls.
They need to either:
get rid of perception and break it up into the parts it used to be.
Or
Get rid of the parts and just make it perception. You don't need auditory taste touch vision. You need Perception. You either get a bonus or you don't.
-S
After thinking about this some more, I get the feeling that it can be left the way it is with Perception being the only skill given for use, but the implementation needs more explaining in the rules. For example:
The player encounters an unopened chest.
Player: I'd like to search the chest.
DM: Ok, by searching, you mean you are going to touch the chest?
Player: Ok, wait, I'll examine the chest first.
DM: Ok (rolls Perception, compares roll to DCs for sight and smell).
Ok here's where it gets difficult. Should it be one roll and compared to the separate DCs for sight and smell? Or two rolls, one for each DC?
If we assume the second... (sight rolls low, smell rolls high)
DM: You don't see anything unusual, but do detect a faint odor of arsenic (The chest being trapped)
Player: Ok, I'm going to feel the chest for a secret latch.
DM: Ok (rolls perception vs touch)
In my opinion, this is very explicit, but very involved. Am I interpreting the intention of the skills correctly? Comments?
This is a rough decision but an interesting discussion. I personally like the Perception skill. I declare what my players should be rolling, or more appropriately, they will declare what they are rolling - Spot, Listen, etc. There wasn't a Smell or Touch skill in 3.5, so combining Spot and Listen together is not a huge stretch. It does make it a little interesting on how to adjudicate though when a player is blinded or deafened. Is it a minus to the Perception? Is it only if you declare Spotting while blind? DM ruling - but that's what the DM is for.
As for Search, I can see the arguments for rolling it into perception, but I'd prefer it to be a separate skill. Perception to me is almost an instinctual thing. Searching isn't instinctual, it's very hands-on. I think it should be separate. Anyone can stop and look around and listen - with varying levels of success - but it's a different skill to know how to effectively and efficiently search.
I haven't made it a separate skill in my game, but I'm considering it. Classed for rogues and fighters, for sure, any others I'd have to think about.
All IMO.
I haven't made it a separate skill in my game, but I'm considering it. Classed for rogues and fighters, for sure, any others I'd have to think about.
Why Fighters out of curiosity?
I personally like the merge (and have used it in RotRL Alpha). I see very few situations which are "pure" Searching vs. "pure" Spotting. While you are conducting a search, something catches your eye or ear and that can point you in the right direction. Maybe the system is not totally smooth, but it is easier to house rule concrete situations (say, by allowing just 1/2 the racial bonus for a specific sense if it plays a mixed/marginal role) than to put up with 3.5, where a character could have 4+ ranks in Search and just the basic ability bonus in Spot (or vice-versa), quite a hard to explain phenomenon...
I like the merge, insofar as it simplifies bookkeeping, and consiolidates things that were almost never taken individually anyway.
What I dislike is that Perception is now the "super-skill." It is clearly and without question better (more useful) than any other skill. I would like the other skills to be either combined or upgraded (or both) to the point where they can compete with Perception on equal footing. For example, Spellcraft + Concentration + Knowledge (arcana) might come close. Or Bluff + Intimidate + Sense Motive. Yes, these are artifical groupings, but at least they're at the same level of usefulness as Perception. In the Beta, all other skills are minor scavengers for whatever skill points are left over after Perception gets maxed out.
I haven't made it a separate skill in my game, but I'm considering it. Classed for rogues and fighters, for sure, any others I'd have to think about.Why Fighters out of curiosity?
The typical rogue is usually conceived as either a thief (have to search to find what to steal) or a treasure-hunter (have to search to find treasure and traps).
The fighter often is the opposite - the soldier, the town guard, whoever it is that is chasing the thieving rogues. They have to search for clues the rogue may have left behind, find what is missing, figure out where a rogue might be hiding.
I think it's functions like these that go far beyond basic Perception.
Always driven me nuts that Fighters don't get Search and Listen and Spot, and now Perception. All those soldiers standing around keeping guard... just walk on by them they can't detect a damn thing.
No kidding...Now you know how Rogue Nations get away with all the trouble they cause...
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However, as a DM, I had trouble adjudicating the Perception skill when used like Search. The Search skill implied that the character was touching objects in order to find things. Perception doesn't indicate that so I have to ask the player if they are doing so.
I want to chime in here to say I think it is fine the way it is written in the Beta. Don't change a thing.
I rule passive perception as pertaining only to those things that can be noticed passively, and that's usually only important when it comes to threats. My rule of thumb is that if it isn't going to harm or disadvantage a player, then leave it to them to search for it, actively. Or, if it's obvious, simply tell them without any kind of check.
Searching to me would include both traps and secret doors, and applied to a select area. Thus someone searching for secret doors is likely to spot the trap because they're looking for details, really, not just for details related to secret doors and passages. Go ahead and assume they're touching things, but assume also that if they're actively searching they are also looking before they touch something, and sight bonuses apply. In fact, apply all bonuses (without stacking) for all the senses that you judge are at work in the searching. Searching could include all senses, as they might notice the outline of the secret door, feel the brick give way slightly, smell the moldy air coming through a crack, and hear the hallow sound as they tap on the wall. They could smell the poison used in the trap, feel the pressure plate give way slightly, hear the shifting parts, and see the subtle imprint of the magic marking of the ward.
We assume, or should unless we have reason not to, that characters are proceeding through a dungeon in a cautious and deliberate manner. They're looking all the time for stuff that's not quite right. Beyond that, they're looking for treasure and keeping an eye out when they can for secret passages. That's just the nature of what they do as adventurers and the players shouldn't have to elaborate too much on how they go about it. If they are about to set off a trap, allow them the Indiana Jones moment of perceiving they're about to step on that pressure plate, passively.
Finally, I suppose if the player goes out of the way to say they're not touching anything when they search then you might rule that they won't set off any touch traps, but that they get a penalty to the search since they're not involving all their senses. Makes sense to me. They're also not going to find anything obscured by anything that would have to be moved, obviously.
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I like Perception as a replacement for Spot/Listen, as well as rolling in the other senses. I don't mind the racial or conditional modifiers based on type of Perception check (sight, sound, etc.) because even though it's more to track you still (IMO) either pick the flavor of Perception most appropriate for the situation or, if more than one might apply, the one your character has the highest bonus for.
I agree with the thought that Search should be separate from Perception. Partly because it feels like it should be an "active" check vs. "passive" (to see, hear, smell, etc.) but also, after reading this thread, because Perception does become more of a "must-have" skill due to the range of activities it covers.
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I want to chime in here to say I think it is fine the way it is written in the Beta. Don't change a thing.I rule passive perception as pertaining only to those things that can be noticed passively, and that's usually only important when it comes to threats. My rule of thumb is that if it isn't going to harm or disadvantage a player, then leave it to them to search for it, actively. Or, if it's obvious, simply tell them without any kind of check.
Searching to me would include both traps and secret doors, and applied to a select area. Thus someone searching for secret doors is likely to spot the trap because they're looking for details, really, not just for details related to secret doors and passages. Go ahead and assume they're touching things, but assume also that if they're actively searching they are also looking before they touch something, and sight bonuses apply. In fact, apply all bonuses (without stacking) for all the senses that you judge are at work in the searching. Searching could include all senses, as they might notice the outline of the secret door, feel the brick give way slightly, smell the moldy air coming through a crack, and hear the hallow sound as they tap on the wall. They could smell the poison used in the trap, feel the pressure plate give way slightly, hear the shifting parts, and see the subtle imprint of the magic marking of the ward.
We assume, or should unless we have reason not to, that characters are proceeding through a dungeon in a cautious and deliberate manner. They're looking all the time for stuff that's not quite right. Beyond that, they're looking for treasure and keeping an eye out when they can for secret passages. That's just the nature of what they do as adventurers and...
I just want to agree here. Spotting a fire at night, or smelling a ghast are different from actively searching a coffin, but that does not mean the skill used is different, only how its used. When there is something on the road that somone can spot, I call for a perception roll and add sight bonus. It somone searched a wall, I call for a perception and add any bonuses that might help them find the secret door. I assume they are touching knocking, etc. Just different wys to use the same skill.
After speaking with one of my players (just posed the question "what do you think about splitting Search as a skill out from Perception"), his conclusion was searching was a perception thing, but because you're actively using it in a particular manner, you should get a bonus. He wanted a flat bonus, I proposed adding your INT bonus. I kinda like the INT bonus idea. Thoughts? Search was an INT skill, to have it shift to WIS when rolled into Perception is a bit awkward, in my mind.
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After speaking with one of my players (just posed the question "what do you think about splitting Search as a skill out from Perception"), his conclusion was searching was a perception thing, but because you're actively using it in a particular manner, you should get a bonus. He wanted a flat bonus, I proposed adding your INT bonus. I kinda like the INT bonus idea. Thoughts? Search was an INT skill, to have it shift to WIS when rolled into Perception is a bit awkward, in my mind.
What came to mind would be a case where someone hears someone approaching from around the bend on a trail. Passive perception would be different than active perception in that passively someone might be less likely to hear the footsteps if they are walking along normally with no special attention, and actively they might more easily detect the approach if the player is crouching along the path waiting for someone or something they expect. That screams to me circumstance bonus and penalty. If you assign a -2 in the former and a +2 in the latter, then you have a 4 point spread based on circumstance, which is pretty big. In fact, this whole argument about active vs. passive perception seems to me to be an issue for which circumstance modifiers could well have been conceived if they hadn't been already.
You have a limited number of cases for perception.
1. The thing is obvious, no check required.
2. The thing can be noticed passively and active perception does not make a difference. Roll perception unbidden, no check modifier.
3. The thing *can* be noticed passively but searching actively for the specific thing makes it easier to spot. Give +2 circumstance bonus on active search, maybe -2 penalty on things not specifically searched for or things you wouldn't normally passively detect.
4. The thing can not be perceived without searching. Roll for perception if player asks for it, with no modifier.
5. The thing can not be perceived.
It seems to me that whenever you have something that's important in the scene you just need to ask and answer two simple questions: a.) can it be perceived, and b.) is there any chance they'd see it if they weren't looking for it? If a. and b. are yes, then use perception as spot. If a. is yes and b. is no, players have to search that 5 foot square deliberately.
INT seems to be the wrong basis in any event. I have to say again I think it is fine as it is. If you read the rules carefully I think it's clear when and where to do what kind of check.
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but also, after reading this thread, because Perception does become more of a "must-have" skill due to the range of activities it covers.
I remind you that you already "have" it, no matter what character you're playing. All characters can perceive, untrained. Most perception DC's are pretty low, relatively speaking. You have to be a rogue to be allowed checks on doors and traps with sufficiently high DC's anyway, regardless of whether or not perception is a class skill. So I don't see what you're all on about anyway with this "must-have" argument. Training (ranks) represent exceptional skill, not having the skill. Some classes are due a special license to exceptional perceptiveness, and others are not. Some races have perceptive proclivities, and others do not. I like it that way.
I would like to see SEARCH back in the skill list. Perception is to notice, Search is to analyze. IMHOThis is totally a wild pitch, but maybe consider folding Search into Appraise? It makes some sense (noticing fine detail, assessing discrepancies), and makes taking Appraise more attractive for spellcasters and rogues alike.
This is one of the changes I made when I was adapting the Skill List to fit my game.
Aside from the matter that I see Perception and actually Searching for something as being two separate areas of expertise, from a mechanical standpoint, I'd say that rolling Search into Perception made it too much of a "must have". Much like when it comes to balancing what level a spell should be, if something is "too good" to the point where you'd be mad not to take it, this is one of the red flags that should bring a skill under scrutiny.
Along with my distaste for the fact that Int-based casters now had a clear edge over others with the redesigned Spellcraft skill, I had a few inter-related changes I made:
Appraise: All uses of Appraise have been absorbed into all of the Int-based skills.
Concentration: The only Con-based skill was restored. Now no casting classes are favored over one another when it comes to key ability scores. This also is of benefit for some some non-casters who had need of a skill based around Discipline, etc.
Knowledge (arcana): Absorbs all the remaining uses of Spellcraft. Like other Int-based skills, it has Appraise uses such as determining the properties of magical items.
Knowledge (religion): Like Arcana, it can be used similarly where divine-only magics are concerned.
Search: Restored the Search skill. It now includes mundane and non-specific uses of the Appraise skill (particularly coins, jewelry and other "shinies").
Spellcraft: This skill was merged into Knowledge (arcana) and no longer exists.
I've made other adjustments too, but since they aren't relevant to this thread's discussion of Perception I won't go into them here.
What came to mind would be a case where someone hears someone approaching from around the bend on a trail. Passive perception would be different than active perception in that passively someone might be less likely to hear the footsteps if they are walking along normally with no special attention, and actively they might more easily detect the approach if the player is crouching along the path waiting for someone or something they expect.
I consider both those cases perception. Active vs. Passive perception - not really a problem for me. Picking something up with your senses vs. looking off in the distance or concentrating on listening down a hallway, those are perception.
Searching is totally different. It's focused use of senses, yes, but there's an intelligence component to it. You're taking time to section off an area, analyze, look for things you'd miss just by scanning, listen for things by rapping on walls and then comparing the sounds, etc. That all takes intelligence.
Didn't have too many issues with active and passive perception in the play-test, but the players did say they would spend points differently now they've got the hang of the skill changes and perception is always likely to be maxed out regardless of class!
because of that, and also to solve the look or touch debate (which i never really put into the alpha playtest) I would be very tempted to go for passive perception and an active investigate which would combine old fashioned search (ie find traps or secret compartments) and appraise. Keeps the number of skills down to the same level but clearly lets you decide when your going to start picking things up and shaking them! theres a recentish thread on ENworld where someone posted his houserule mods including this, and it seemed to strike a chord with many gamers
keen senses could apply to both skills as well
This is one of the changes I made when I was adapting the Skill List to fit my game.
Aside from the matter that I see Perception and actually Searching for something as being two separate areas of expertise, from a mechanical standpoint, I'd say that rolling Search into Perception made it too much of a "must have". Much like when it comes to balancing what level a spell should be, if something is "too good" to the point where you'd be mad not to take it, this is one of the red flags that should bring a skill under scrutiny.
Along with my distaste for the fact that Int-based casters now had a clear edge over others with the redesigned Spellcraft skill, I had a few inter-related changes I made:
Appraise: All uses of Appraise have been absorbed into all of the Int-based skills.
Concentration: The only Con-based skill was restored. Now no casting classes are favored over one another when it comes to key ability scores. This also is of benefit for some some non-casters who had need of a skill based around Discipline, etc.
Knowledge (arcana): Absorbs all the remaining uses of Spellcraft. Like other Int-based skills, it has Appraise uses such as determining the properties of magical items.
Knowledge (religion): Like Arcana, it can be used similarly where divine-only magics are concerned.
Search: Restored the Search skill. It now includes mundane and non-specific uses of the Appraise skill (particularly coins, jewelry and other "shinies").
Spellcraft: This skill was merged into Knowledge (arcana) and no...
Can't quote your whole post, but I'd just like to say I like this approach. Very nice retrofitting for the skills. I may have to adopt this for my own game.
Can't quote your whole post, but I'd just like to say I like this approach. Very nice retrofitting for the skills. I may have to adopt this for my own game.
Thanks for saying so, I appreciate it. :) I have a lot more that I need to get on my campaign wiki, but feel free to borrow any rules you like. (OGL and all that.)
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I like perception as a combination of spot/listen. I miss Search, as well. I agree that it 'feels off' when making a perception check to notice something (like a secret door) that probably should require some amount of touching.
Because Search seems to involve a combination of senses, I think it is best as a distinct skill from Perception.
Agree.
If it MUST remain combined then we need come up with an active/passive system, like anytime characters are walking down a hallway they are assumed to be searching (10+Perception). If that beats the DC, then they just notice automatically and the GM tells them, no rolling required. Otherwise, they have to say "I'm searching" if they want to roll.
Every game I've ever played in has the GM call for Spot/Perception checks, which leads to the weird instances when everyone rolls low and the GM says "Nevermind, you don't see anything." The passive 10+Perception would eliminate that. When I GM, I usually have players roll a bunch of d20s that I record and use when I don't want to tip them off. More variation, but it works out to 10+Perception on average. There would end up being a lot fewer rolls for Perception because you would only roll when YOU, not the GM, calls for it.
Bump. Any thoughts on my above idea for an active/passive system within a unified Perception skill?
I myself use a sort of active/passive Search/Perception check (I do not include Search in the Perception check, it is its own skill).
Unless characters specifically say they are looking around (Perception) or examining a particular area (Search), then I automatically roll Stealth (or other) checks for anything hiding against the characters' passive/take-10 Perception. I have a report I run from my database that prints out each character's Search, Perception, Stealth, Sense Motive (among other useful stats) for just this purpose.
While this doesn't necessarily need to be codified as a rule, it would still be a useful tip for any section on how a new DM might run a game.
BTW, Disciple of Sakura, I've finally gotten my entire skill list up now if you wanted to have a look-see: http://www.worldsunknown.com/wiki/index.php?title=Category:Skills (note, I've changed Escape Artist into a feat rather than rolling it into Acrobatics).
Bump. Any thoughts on my above idea for an active/passive system within a unified Perception skill?
Sorry, missed this. Yes, I would agree with this. I think Perception just needs another entry to adjudicate certain search/active looking situations.
I like perception the way it is ( I LOVE that it is totally Wisdom based, hated all of the rogues who were as smart as wizards) I just think that the rules for perception as a single group roll needs to be investigated.