Why do the core rules have to be be married to Golarion?


Ability Scores and Races

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Roman wrote:
The Pathfinder races are very much in accord with what D&D races are like. There is some racial power creep (as there is power creep in other aspects of the game), but this is done in a way that actually enhances congruence between racial mechanics and racial flavor.

I disagree with your assessment.

I've never seen halflings or gnomes regarded as the most charismatic races. Dwarves and half-orcs shared the distinction on lest charismatic player races BUT now only dwarves get that honor.

The power creep issue doesn't bother as much as the new direction that is being taken with the races, so that they are better suited to excel in their two favored classes at the cost of their moving away from their standard, D&D forebears.

Liberty's Edge

considering that in the original version of the game halflings were equal to thieves, dwares equal to fighter and elf equal to fighter/sorcerer (the only race that chose "class" was the human... the other races wew clases on themselves)

i don't see the issue... really :P

nor is anything new... at all

Dark Archive

Chris Perkins 88 wrote:
Roman wrote:
The Pathfinder races are very much in accord with what D&D races are like. There is some racial power creep (as there is power creep in other aspects of the game), but this is done in a way that actually enhances congruence between racial mechanics and racial flavor.

I disagree with your assessment.

I've never seen halflings or gnomes regarded as the most charismatic races. Dwarves and half-orcs shared the distinction on lest charismatic player races BUT now only dwarves get that honor.

The power creep issue doesn't bother as much as the new direction that is being taken with the races, so that they are better suited to excel in their two favored classes at the cost of their moving away from their standard, D&D forebears.

That is true, but in a sense that is only natural -- if dwarves, for example, made for poor clerics or fighters, I don't see the point of having those two as their Favoured Classes. Of course, some posters have questioned the whole point of Favoured Classes, but I see them enhancing the stereotypes in a positive way. Naturally, like I've posted, I *do* question some choices, and I feel that the 'one spellcasting/one "martial" Favoured Class'-system is a bit silly just in the sake of "balance"...

Dark Archive

Chris Perkins 88 wrote:

Dwarves aren't graceful fighters, they're more like tenacious little tanks... hardy as hell and able to hold the line and stand their ground.

A -2 to DEX wouldn't hurt any more than a -2 to CON does for Elves or a -2 to STR does for a halfling or gnome finesse or ranged-weapon fighters.
Once again, ability scores should (hopefully) be based on what makes sense with regards to the racial descriptions more so than with an eye towards creating maximized characters.

Yes, I can surely agree with your last sentence, but considering that dwarves should made for effective fighters (since it's a Favoured Class for them), I don't want to see them getting -1 to AC and Ranged Attacks and Initiative. Consider that already halflings and elves are far better suited for some DEX-based fighter builds, and half-orcs, half-elves and humans can increase their STR *without* suffering a penalty to DEX... where would that leave the dwarves? I don't think +2 to CON would make up for it. Also I'd like to point out that I don't see dwarves as being "clumsy"... maybe not so graceful, but skilled at defense and dodging nonetheless.

And though I don't want to see dwarves becoming the "best" choice for fighters, I surely don't want to see them becoming the weakest race, either. And the same goes for the ranger -- dwarves with their bonus to WIS and CON would make for good rangers, but if they received a penalty to DEX, from a purely mechanical POV (and this is something most players probably consider first and foremost) I would rather play an elven ranger than a dwarven one.

Of course, if dwarves got a new racial ability that gave them a bonus to Initiative and AC, *then* it would be in balance.


Asgetrion wrote:
Naturally, like I've posted, I *do* question some choices, and I feel that the 'one spellcasting/one "martial" Favoured Class'-system is a bit silly just in the sake of "balance"...

I'm with you in that regard.

As for your comments on the DEX penalty making for poor fighters, I can see where you're coming from.

With point buy, however, it's easy to "buy up" to a 10 DEX, even with the DEX penalty. I guess I see stumpy legged, stocky dwarves as little walls o' flesh. I don't have a problem with their being ill-suited to finesse/ranged fighting... and think it makes sense that elves and halflings fill that role better.


Well, Halflings do strike me as very charismatic in their charming homely way and some of us have been suggesting swapping the +2 bonus from Charisma to Intelligence for Gnomes. For the most part, though, the +2/+2/-2 has been put to good use towards enhancing flavor. Elves, for example, were supposed to be graceful and intelligent... except that they weren't. Now they are.

Chris Perkins 88 wrote:
Roman wrote:
The Pathfinder races are very much in accord with what D&D races are like. There is some racial power creep (as there is power creep in other aspects of the game), but this is done in a way that actually enhances congruence between racial mechanics and racial flavor.

I disagree with your assessment.

I've never seen halflings or gnomes regarded as the most charismatic races. Dwarves and half-orcs shared the distinction on lest charismatic player races BUT now only dwarves get that honor.

The power creep issue doesn't bother as much as the new direction that is being taken with the races, so that they are better suited to excel in their two favored classes at the cost of their moving away from their standard, D&D forebears.


For the most part, I like the way the racial abilities are at this point; I think Charisma is just fine for halflings; they're not natural leaders, but I've always gotten the impression that they're not simply because its more in their nature to manipulate those around them (either into accepting them into their society, in the case of benign halflings, or into parting with their hard-earned gold, for the vagabonds). They're supposed to be adept at blending in with other societies (at least in 3.x D&D and Pathfinder), and being a touch more charismatic than most would help ease that process.

Now, the only two races I think Chris might have a case with are gnomes and half-orcs. Gnomes I like as fey, though, and their vibrant personalities mesh well with a high Charisma. I prefer this solution far more than the 'they're too much like dwarves and halflings, ditch them for now' philosophy of 4e.

Half-orcs, on the other hand, I really am not a fan of. Having half-orcs as some of the most powerful clerics around doesn't make a drop of sense without a fair bit of rationalization, and I really get the feeling that they gave them a mental bonus just because 'everyone else gets one'. I'm in favor of dropping the Wisdom bonus and the Int penalty, if ability score mods are the be-all end-all, but I'd rather just go back to having +2 Str/-2 Int/-2 Cha and giving them a shade more powerful racial abilities. Orc Ferocity already makes them fantastic clerics; if they're reduced to the negatives, they can just heal themselves back up next round and keep trucking.


Khalarak wrote:


Half-orcs, on the other hand, I really am not a fan of. Having half-orcs as some of the most powerful clerics around doesn't make a drop of sense without a fair bit of rationalization, and I really get the feeling that they gave them a mental bonus just because 'everyone else gets one'. I'm in favor of dropping the Wisdom bonus and the Int penalty, if ability score mods are the be-all end-all, but I'd rather just go back to having +2 Str/-2 Int/-2 Cha and giving them a shade more powerful racial abilities. Orc Ferocity already makes them fantastic clerics; if they're reduced to the negatives, they can just heal themselves back up next round and keep trucking.

To me the +2 to wis made sence as they have a more wild take care of themselves attitude most grew up by there wits I don't see it as wise more as street smarts and cunning. As for the cleric thing man thats classic orc sharman, in a fit of battle frenzy they heal themselves from wounds most never would have survived . To me cleric or druid is a great fit for half orcs as most grow up loners searching for something to cling to or someone to accept them or saying to hell with others I can do it myself.To me that is a half orc streetwise ,strong and self reliant . the scores fit fine

Liberty's Edge

seekerofshadowlight wrote:
To me the +2 to wis made sence as they have a more wild take care of themselves attitude most grew up by there wits I don't see it as wise more as street smarts and cunning. As for the cleric thing man thats classic orc sharman, in a fit of battle frenzy they heal themselves from wounds most never would have survived . To me cleric or druid is a great fit for half orcs as most grow up loners searching for something to cling to or someone to accept them or saying to hell with others I can do it myself.To me that is a half orc streetwise ,strong and self reliant . the scores fit fine

i am with you... also its not fair to penalize one race more than the others... its unfair... i don't like the halfling and not for that i calling their heads off and asking they have +2 dex - 2 str -2 con, or i am?

its not only because its fair (that yes it is) but also because it makes sense even if people can't see beyond the brutish barbarian


Montalve wrote:

considering that in the original version of the game halflings were equal to thieves, dwares equal to fighter and elf equal to fighter/sorcerer (the only race that chose "class" was the human... the other races wew clases on themselves)

i don't see the issue... really :P

nor is anything new... at all

No... in the original version of the game race and class were seperate. The advantage to being an elf or half elf was the ability to dual class fighter / magic user (later adding theif to the mix). Basic D&D mixed race / class IIRC -- which is why I stuck with the original D&D and later AD&D. Of course besides bonuses and penalties to characteristics there were level limits on non-human races to balance their advantages in characteristic bonuses, dual classing and skill bonuses (for non-human thieves)...

Liberty's Edge

R_Chance wrote:
No... in the original version of the game race and class were seperate. The advantage to being an elf or half elf was the ability to dual class fighter / magic user (later adding theif to the mix). Basic D&D mixed race / class IIRC -- which is why I stuck with the original D&D and later AD&D. Of course besides bonuses and penalties to characteristics there were level limits on non-human races to balance their advantages in characteristic bonuses, dual classing and skill bonuses (for non-human thieves)...

mmm will have to check my old box with the red dragon in front (awesome image of the dragon about o eat the barbarian like fighter with the axe)

but you are rigth multiclass on demi humans was limited by level limits... which was shown in demihumans prefered classes as being able to get up top... waht... 12 level at most?

hyumans were the onlyrace that could get to level 20, and they had the option to dual class... mind you... a dual class character was prettyu tought to get... first you needed min of 15 in your 1st class main attribute and 17 in the main attribute of whatever class you wanted to get later... and YOU never ever again got to learn anything of the old class...

in those books where were i grew fond of elven rogues (bonuses for rogues were awesome) and human clerics, i have always been a fan of the tmeplars and the description said they were based on them , so i loved the class (and still do)

in 2nd AD&D to play a paladin meant something... not everyone was able, not only for the rigid alignment and the requirements and ethos of the class... but getting the attributes it asked for... including the 17 in charisma... man it was tough...

cough cought also here theyhad the bobbit-like halflings i began to hate so much before reading and watching LotR... then i hate them more :P

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