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Ill post my findings (and those of my group) here as we go...last night was the first get together after I had the Beta.
We primarily converted all characters and played through 1 random encounter with 8 Ghouls and 2 Ghasts who struck while the party was sleeping.
The Party
7th Dwarven Cleric (Domains: Protection and Good)
7th Dwarven Fighter (who built her character to Max 3.5 Trip Rules)
5th Human Ranger/2nd Deepwoods Sniper
7th Elven Warmage (worked up a conversion Ill post a little later)
7th Water Genasi Samurai (same)
7th Human Rogue
Ill post initial observations a little later, as I have to leave to take the little one to school now.
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The Changeover:
Pathfinderizing:
The Warmage-
1. Improved to d8 for Hit Points.
2. Added to Weapons Proficient: Choice of 1 Martial Weapon at 1st level.
3. Unlimited Casting of Cantrips
4. Changed Number of Cantrips to 3 at 1st and 4 at 2nd....added at 2nd take one Cantrip from Wizards list for the 4th. (in case they want a Read magic or Detect Magic or such...)
5. Added Scribe Scroll at 7th Level
6. Added Weapon Training (as Fighter) at 13th (for 1 group of weapons- please note they will still only be able to use the weapons they are proficient with from first level, so this is only beneficial for weapon groups that fall into the simple category really....except for the 1 martial weapon ;)...If they are Human they may have 2...a Non-Human Race, might benefit from their racial weapons in this manner also)
7. Added Armor Training (as Fighter at 18th)
Not too much of a change, just added a tweak that to me made sense.
The Samurai
Only change: Added a Ki Pool much as The Monk that does the exact same things, but for The Samurai's Katana and Wakizashi instead of Unarmed Combat.
Favored Classes (House Ruled for alternate classes)*
Barbarian:
Bard: Beguiler, Factotum
Cleric: Shujenga
Druid: Spirit Shamen
Fighter: Samurai, Swashbuckler
Monk:
Paladin: Favored Soul, Knight
Ranger: Scout
Rogue: Ninja, Spell Thief
Sorceror: Warlock
Wizard: Warmage, Wu-Jen
Not Favored
Dragon Shamen (didnt think about it) ;)
Dusk Blade (thought about putting it with Paladin)
Hex Blade (thought about putting it in Sorceror
For Future Favored Notes in dealing with Psionic Races in XPH
Psion
Psychic Warrior
Soul Knife
Wilder
Ardent
Divine Mind
Lurk
* More to keep from getting to crazy
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Observations
Hit Points: All players gained a few hit points....No complaints by the characters.
Dwarf Cleric: Happy about his Domain Spells, Hes already been using the Channeling rules and loves those. Shrugged over the majority of the Dwarvish races slubtle changes except the racial plus for wisdom...loved that (of course). He liked that Pathfinder had essentially 2 paths for each race...One Martial and 1 Caster, that they could benefit from.
Dwarf Fighter: She hated the changes to Trip (though as a DM I loved them) Prior to change She used her BAB + Str + for using Flail as a Weapon +4 for Improved Trip. (21 Str for Ogre Gauntlets and +1 Improvement at 4th and starting Str of 18) I think her Trip Attack was something like +16 or +17 opposed to an equal level Fighter about a +9 average (+7 BAB and St average of 15...means on opposed rolls she almost always won and would get the free attack once they fell.
I had many scowls from her as now its +7, +5 and +2 for Improved Trip...she no longer receives a bonus with the flail, her CMB for Tripping is now +14 (still nothing to sneeze at)...but against an equal level fighter using same +9 for CMB, and DC 15...instead of the Typical Touch attack AC of say 11-12 Where before she only missed on a 1, and typically had a +7-+8 advantage on the opposed roll, making her trip her opponent 70-80% of the time
With Pathfinder 14+ Die roll vs 9+ 15 = 24 means a 50% trip chance and no free attack.
I like the change though as it should be tougher to do a special manuever and having an opponent prone when you will get an Attack of Opportunity when he stands is enough of a perk to trip, in my opinion as a DM... I did have to promise her that we would re-visit this if she absolutley hated the changes.
In exchange, she gained a few feats and took Overhand Chop, and Weapon Specialization which raised her damage by 6 combined with the Fighters Weapon Traing ;)...which in the first combat we did pleased her to know end.
Ranger: Loved the Hit Point Change, Shrugged at the Nature Bond change, was very pleased at the Human +2 to 1 attribute. Gained a large amount of skill points because of the Perception and Stealth merges, and thought that was good. Overall postive, but not overhand backflips so.
Warmage: was pleased for the changes in the Elf Race. Convinced me through a debate to make the adjustments to Favored Class' to include like variants. Her reasoning: Favored Class is special enough that it shouldnt be limited to just core classes, if the class is similar in intent ie Warmage is a Wizard Variant, and the favored class perk isnt a class perk but a race perk. Why penalize a player for taking an unusual class if its not too overpowering and if it still captures the flare for what that race would do?!. (Im paraphrasing here and the discussion went on for the better part of 45 minutes before we decided as a group to do so. Because The adjustments to the class were mine and Not Paizo's, I wont comment any furhter on them, Though if anyone looking in cares to tell me what they think on the changes, Id welcome them.
She did like the additional Feat she gained, and overall was pleased.
Samurai: was non-commital to the changes overall, but during play seemed to enjoy them.
Rogue: Player was absent, and hasn't been converted yet. but overall her husband (the Dwarf Cleric was receptive)
The first combat I added the changes to Toughness to the Ghasts and didnt change anything else to the monsters. The plyaers readily mopped them up, as you would expect a 7th party to handle 8 Ghouls and two Ghasts, It was a random encounter that occured when the party was snoozing, and it forced the Samurai to hold the majority of them at bay for a round as the party started to awake. The Warmage didnt even enter the combat, as by the time she could, they were all vanquished. The Channel Positive Energy was the big tide turner (surprise huh?!)
It went exactly as I had expected...
Ill keep you updated as we play.
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Something to note, since this campaign is so heavily undead and its really easy to overlook in the new rules, undead now add their Cha to fort saves and HP instead of their con mod. That means that the undead will be a bit tougher as well to match up with the players.
Should be interesting, I look forward to reading further reports.
-Tarlane
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Thanks for that Tarlane, I will remember it. For a reference point they are about a quarter the way through it, and investigating the various places of interest, having stopped the problem in Barovia.
In advance Ill apologize in advance to any who read my typos. Im dyslexic, and at times when Im typing that becomes a hinderance.
I've managed to learn how to manage it well enough (not that difficult really) but it can be a b*$+~ when Im typing and not taking the time to do spellcheck.
Dwarf Fighter: She hated the changes to Trip (though as a DM I loved them) Prior to change She used her BAB + Str + for using Flail as a Weapon +4 for Improved Trip. (21 Str for Ogre Gauntlets and +1 Improvement at 4th and starting Str of 18) I think her Trip Attack was something like +16 or +17 opposed to an equal level Fighter about a +9 average (+7 BAB and St average of 15...means on opposed rolls she almost always won and would get the free attack once they fell.
I think you misread the trip rules in 3.5.
A flail only allows you to make a trop attack, but doesn't give any bonus. Moreover, the trip check is an opposed roll : strength of the atacker vs strength or dexterity of the defender. No BAB is involved in the roll ...
Your player should have used : Str + 4 (Improved Trip) !!!
The difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder is only 2 on the roll and the free attack that is no longer available ...
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Dwarf Fighter: She hated the changes to Trip (though as a DM I loved them) Prior to change She used her BAB + Str + for using Flail as a Weapon +4 for Improved Trip. (21 Str for Ogre Gauntlets and +1 Improvement at 4th and starting Str of 18) I think her Trip Attack was something like +16 or +17 opposed to an equal level Fighter about a +9 average (+7 BAB and St average of 15...means on opposed rolls she almost always won and would get the free attack once they fell.I think you misread the trip rules in 3.5.
A flail only allows you to make a trop attack, but doesn't give any bonus. Moreover, the trip check is an opposed roll : strength of the atacker vs strength or dexterity of the defender. No BAB is involved in the roll ...
Your player should have used : Str + 4 (Improved Trip) !!!
The difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder is only 2 on the roll and the free attack that is no longer available ...
Yes I read the Flail and I think that was a carry over from previous editions in the players mind...Ill point it out to them.
However, you are not correct in the trip rule for 3.5...You are missing the Touch attack that comes before the opposed Strength roll.
The Touch attack uses BAB+Str+Improved Trip...(in the players case +7+5+4= +16 vs a Touch Ac of (Typically) a 11-12 for most fighters. After you are successful then you make the opposed Str checks; in this case 5+4= 9 vs a typical enemy strength of 14-15 for an enemy 'average' fighter: +2.....Now look at the Pathfinder rewrite: +7+5+2 = +14 vs DC 15+CMB (with a 7th fighter of average ST- +9)or....d20+14 against (using the same average Fighter DC 15+9= 24....
You can still see that as I mentioned with Pathfinder The opponent will be tripped less times. Im not against that at all, just pointing out the diferences.
I believe the Improved trip bonus in 3.5 (+4) only applied to the Str check, not to the attack itself.
DW
Personally I would have kept the warmage at d6 hit die to keep with the hit die and BAB thing, but different strokes eh :).
With your players showing up here I'm not sure how much you want to give away, but I'm very interested in what your doing to the adventure itself to Pathfinderize it. After reading your initial posts I thought to myself "hey, that's a darn good idea, and I actually have that adventure!", though I have so many personal issues with little details here and there in the adventure that if I run it aswell I'll change so much that if I didn't tell someone what I was running they probably wouldn't recognize it. I love Bruce Cordel's work, and though I can't think of anything off the top of my head that James Wyatt has done I recognize it as a name I trust, but I really think they coould have done a better job, especialy with Strahd's stats, but that's another topic.
Still haven't decided if I'm going to use Expedition to Castle Ravenloft or Red Hand of Doom as my introductory playtest adventure, but even if I go with RHoD I'm going to be on here a lot picking your brain...hope you don't mind.
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not at all. I welcome any thoughts. Im 'Beta' Testing my house rules on The warmage and samurai as well as the rest. As long as folks don't get into mudslinging, Im cool with it all.
I wont be giving much away as most Ill tell of what Im doing, will already have been 'played'
A few things on the adventure side: I put in legends about 3 'Saints' of Pelor, who had settled into the area...3 Women. The Backstory ties into the fact that long ago this region was a Sanctuary/Holy site of sorts to Pelor until a few generations ago all contact with the area was lost...about the same time as the returning War Hero Strahd came back home to inhabit the families 'summer residence'. You will find Strahds Stats diferent enough to make him a bit more of a challenge, but still not too drasticly diferent. The Party is on their way for the 3rd time back to Vistani Encampment and to the Tser Pool in search of the second 'holy site' after already defeating the Hag beneath the Keep on Lysaga Hill and blocking Strahds contact with the Mountain Fane.
As far as the Warmage, I thought hard on upping the dice, and finally decided that these two facts had too much impact on whether to raise the HD or not...1. The Bard going to D8. 2. The base Wizard being D6.
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Ok so last Sunday we got together and played through the Forest Fane area within the Module.
The party
Ulfgar 7th Dwarven Cleric
Ielenia 7th Elven Warmage
Nino 7th Water Genasi Samurai
Twisp 7th Human Ranger
Smitty 7th Dwarven Fighter
Active NPC's
Tatiana 5th Human Fighter
Ashlyn 6th Human Paladin
Inactive NPC's
Uruk 6th Human Paladin
Kwalu 7th Human Rogue
There will be spoilers here so read no further if you do not want to see them...
Set up...
The party at last sitting had finished The Dwarven Hunter in the cave under Tser Falls and had camped there overnight, fighting off a ghoul encounter during their rest easily.
They had previously been to Lysaga Hill and discovered the Mountain Fane and had reasoned that their might be something at Tser Falls, failing finding what they had hoped for...another Fane, there...they went down to the Tser Pool, skirting the Vistani encampment.
I made a hidden perception check against their stealth and overcame it, Madam Eva was alerted and began gathering the camp to go after the party as they moved toward the Fane.
The party left the woods and moved toward the Fane, splitting up.
Nino, Ashlyn, and Smitty moved to the runic circle and searched it, ready for any opponents. Twisp and Ielenia were on overwath, protecting the searchers...while Tatiana and Ulf were on guard for the rear.
The Hill Giant approached from the rear, the two Ogrees near to The Runic Circle. I rolled and madam Eva was scheduled to arrive 6 rounds after combat began, and the 10 Vistani 1 round after her.
Ashlyn rushed one Ogre, Smitty the other. Nino stayed trying to discover how to disenchant/Violate the Runestone. Twisp/Ielenia went to work with magic and arrows on the Hill Giant, while Ulfgar held him in place...however briefly. Tatiana raan to Twisps side.
The ogre's fell in about 2 rounds, The Hill Giant knocked out Ulfgar, and Twisp had to take the place to keep The Giant from reaching Tatiana or Ielenia...Soon Smitty joined Twisp. Nino was using his crossbow against the other Ogre to aide Ashlyn in finishing him off.
The Giant fell on round 4
2 rounds of healing after The Ranger brought back up the Cleric, and then madam Eva showed up...she cast a defensive spell. The party prepared, moving up.
The Vistani began creeping up...a few perception checks and the sneaking rogues were spotted by the ranger. who cast Entangle. Ielenia cast stinking Cloud, the plan disrupted totally for the bad guys, their movement heavily impeded, between Ninos Crossbow, Twisps arrows, and Ielenia's spells...the Vistani Rogues were effectively neutralized.
The fight was really Madam Eva vs Ashlyn, Ulfgar, and Smitty.
2 criticals later and very good use of CMB, and Ashlyn was dead. Once the Paladin had fallen, the party was scared, and began to focus ranged attacks and spells on Madam Eva. Smitty, buffed...moved to hold her in place, and Ulfgar kept him up with healing spells...it went like this--- Fight a round and 5' step back, get healed and next round 5' step in and go again....rinse and repeat.
They eventually finished off Madam Eva, though it was a tough fight lasting total, including the giants and ogre's about 15 rounds. When all was said and done, they knew they had been in a tussle.
Observations: The Dwarven Fighter didnt even try and Combat manuevers because of the difficulty. Madam Eva was a very effective grappler, and the CMB was easy to use with her.
The slight tweaks I did to the Warmage are very effective as well.
The party had an enjoyable time and are looking forward to the next meeting.
CMB is the thing that needs the most fixing, making it easier for a fighter to do the manuevers so they will even try them.