I'm still trying to figure out how Tarren Dei avoids fighting with his wife. Is it 'the wife is always right' rule?
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'm still trying to figure out how Tarren Dei avoids fighting with his wife. Is it 'the wife is always right' rule?
No, it is not the 'wife is always right rule'. I'm offended you would suggest that. It is more a matter of deciding which things we care about, which things we don't, and compromising on the overlap. Fortunately, there is not much overlap.
So, she gets to make decisions about where we live, what we eat, what I wear, who our friends are, where we go on vacation, and what we name the children. I get to make decisions about anything related to D&D.
That's fair, right?
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I'm still trying to figure out how Tarren Dei avoids fighting with his wife. Is it 'the wife is always right' rule?
I've met exactly one couple in my life who claimed after many, many years of marriage that they had never had a fight. It was my observation though that when they did get 'grumpy' at each other, there was a period of sulking on both sides. They just never voiced their disagreements in a meaningful way. Everyone has their own methods I suppose. :0)
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I'm still trying to figure out how Tarren Dei avoids fighting with his wife. Is it 'the wife is always right' rule?No, it is not the 'wife is always right rule'. I'm offended you would suggest that. It is more a matter of deciding which things we care about, which things we don't, and compromising on the overlap. Fortunately, there is not much overlap.
So, she gets to make decisions about where we live, what we eat, what I wear, who our friends are, where we go on vacation, and what we name the children. I get to make decisions about anything related to D&D.
That's fair, right?
Hell yih. Don't take no crap!
I'm still trying to figure out how Tarren Dei avoids fighting with his wife. Is it 'the wife is always right' rule?No, it is not the 'wife is always right rule'. I'm offended you would suggest that. It is more a matter of deciding which things we care about, which things we don't, and compromising on the overlap. Fortunately, there is not much overlap.
So, she gets to make decisions about where we live, what we eat, what I wear, who our friends are, where we go on vacation, and what we name the children. I get to make decisions about anything related to D&D.
That's fair, right?
Ahhh, I see. At least you're in charge of the important stuff. ;-)
Actually what you first describe is the essence of many relationships/interactions. Covey-principle if you will. Focus on important things (to both), navigate the middle, and avoid getting bogged down in the minutae. It's amazing how many people get hung up over stuff that doesn't matter much in relation to other things. Kinda like our debate on how to debate.
Actually, I stopped my query a bit short due a distraction and didn't realize that I failed to finish. It's better that way, since I think I was about to continue on the 'always right' theme as it relates to a number of recent discussions. And throw in a whole slew of husband/wife jokes. Sorry for the lapse.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I'm still trying to figure out how Tarren Dei avoids fighting with his wife. Is it 'the wife is always right' rule?No, it is not the 'wife is always right rule'. I'm offended you would suggest that. It is more a matter of deciding which things we care about, which things we don't, and compromising on the overlap. Fortunately, there is not much overlap.
So, she gets to make decisions about where we live, what we eat, what I wear, who our friends are, where we go on vacation, and what we name the children. I get to make decisions about anything related to D&D.
That's fair, right?
Ahhh, I see. At least you're in charge of the important stuff. ;-)
Actually what you first describe is the essence of many relationships/interactions. Covey-principle if you will. Focus on important things (to both), navigate the middle, and avoid getting bogged down in the minutae. It's amazing how many people get hung up over stuff that doesn't matter much in relation to other things. Kinda like our debate on how to debate.
Actually, I stopped my query a bit short due a distraction and didn't realize that I failed to finish. It's better that way, since I think I was about to continue on the 'always right' theme as it relates to a number of recent discussions. And throw in a whole slew of husband/wife jokes. Sorry for the lapse.
Of course, you knew my 'offense' was a joke, right?
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Edit: Jal: I am not LogicNinja.
I know, I'm very sorry. The original broohah started with talking about both, but you came in and I did not make the connection.
I'm not diving back into the debate, which should not have happened, but I will say this: I apologize for criticizing your playing preferences (whether or not I interpreted them correctly).
I got caught up in the discussion with houstonderek, and it was 5am. I wasn't thinking clearly, and the little voice in my head that said "just leave it alone" was asleep at the wheel, so I would like to apologize - it isn't my normal behaviour. Despite some differences of opinion, you and I (and LogicNinja) have had some pretty meaty debates on the boards, which I appreciate. Most people just leave things alone, but you're willing to at least address points as they are raised.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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I went to a baseball game today. My first one as an adult actually. While we were waiting in line, a guy came up and gave us a handful of tickets. "My company gave me these and I can't use them. I just drove over to find someone who could use them. Enjoy the game." Then he went back to his car and drove off.
So, we went in without having to buy tickets. Around the 4th inning, I was about to go buy some snacks when my three year old handed me a $10 bill. She'd just picked it up off the ground. None of the adults around us would admit to it being theirs. So, I bought $6 worth of snow cones and went back to our seats $4 richer.
Our team lost, but I'm not really into sports anyhow, so it was no biggie.
The kids got to run around the diamond after. My daughter was a bit confused, so the mascot held her hand.
On our way out, some kid came over and said to my son: "Hey, we caught two of these frisbees today and we got them autographed. We don't need them both. Take one." The mascots had been throwing frisbees out to the fans.
Now, we don't look like we're poor or anything. This was my first baseball game, so I don't know if this is unusual.
All I can say is "Wow. Isn't it cool when a bunch of people who share a hobby can be so nice to each other about it. Really makes you wanna be there, eh?"
hehehhe
So endeth the sermon.
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Edit: Jal: I am not LogicNinja.I know, I'm very sorry. The original broohah started with talking about both, but you came in and I did not make the connection.
I'm not diving back into the debate, which should not have happened, but I will say this: I apologize for criticizing your playing preferences (whether or not I interpreted them correctly).
I got caught up in the discussion with houstonderek, and it was 5am. I wasn't thinking clearly, and the little voice in my head that said "just leave it alone" was asleep at the wheel, so I would like to apologize - it isn't my normal behaviour. Despite some differences of opinion, you and I (and LogicNinja) have had some pretty meaty debates on the boards, which I appreciate. Most people just leave things alone, but you're willing to at least address points as they are raised.
oh, yeah, blame me :)
anyway, i appologize as well. i was trying to point out, in a possibly non-productive way, that the people writing pathfinder need input from people who enjoy a variety of playing styles, and can't be expected to only consider the points of the "min-max" "optimal build" crowd. not everyone plays the same way, and not everyone wants the same things from a gaming system. if pathfinder were to go too far into ToB, To9S land, i'd probably pass (even though i sprung for the hardcopy of the beta rules) and just continue to play with my 3x core books and golarion materials. if pathfinder went to far into WoD land (excessive "storytelling" stuff) i'd likely pass as well. if it does stay on point with what i assume the design principles to be (that is, clean up 3x and retain a degree of backward compatability), then i'd continue with my plan to buy the hardcover and enjoy it for years.
furthermore, ireally, REALLY HATE whippersnappers telling me and others, some of whom have been playing since, i dunno, the SEVENTIES, that we don't play d&d "right". just really chaps my hide. sorry.
i and a couple others are starting our first pathfinder beta game in a couple of weeks, and i intend on posting our findings here. i want to let you know in advance that i won't appreciate it if my observations are dissed simply because we aren't powergamers who agonize over every tiny aspect of a character build or some mathematical probability in the rules. we will be considering whether the game is fun.
i think that is the ultimate consideration. at the end of the day, was the few hours you spent immersed in your game enjoyable? that's all that really matters...
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i and a couple others are starting our first pathfinder beta game in a couple of weeks, and i intend on posting our findings here. i want to let you know in advance that i won't appreciate it if my observations are dissed simply because we aren't powergamers who agonize over every tiny aspect of a character build or some mathematical probability in the rules. we will be considering whether the game is fun.
It is a compliment to ALL the members of the Paizo community that I have not seen anybody comment at all on the Playtest Forums feedback unless it is asked for, or only to say something encouraging.
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It is a compliment to ALL the members of the Paizo community that I have not seen anybody comment at all on the Playtest Forums feedback unless it is asked for, or only to say something encouraging.i and a couple others are starting our first pathfinder beta game in a couple of weeks, and i intend on posting our findings here. i want to let you know in advance that i won't appreciate it if my observations are dissed simply because we aren't powergamers who agonize over every tiny aspect of a character build or some mathematical probability in the rules. we will be considering whether the game is fun.
this is good to know. i don't want to be discouraged from discussing how the game goes for us, frankly.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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[spoiler]
The problem I have with that wikipedia article is the same problem I have with the general assumptions about optimizer playing behavior. (1) Assumption that being able to put together a mechanically powerful character implies inability to roleplay. (Stormwind Fallacy) (2) Applying derogatory labels (and munchkin most certainly is as it originated as an insult by the 'we're the real roleplayers because we ignore the mechanics' crowd) to an entire class of gamers with a legitimate creative agenda. Heck, the wikipedia article as much as says that playing rpgs in a competitive fashion is wrong. ie, being a gamist is the 'wrong way to play'. That makes the wikipedia article offensive.
If we were to try to label these positions (and, I know, that any time you set up a two positions as imagined opposites you end up with a potentially reductivist binary) what terms should we use?
I used 'munchkin' earlier, but not judgementally. I thought about using 'character optimizer' but felt that left a lot unsaid. It certainly didn't seem to describe a well-rounded approach to playtesting as optimizing characters wouldn't be enough.
I'm curious about the claims to a more 'objective' approach to playtesting, partly because I haven't seen it yet. Maybe it is happening somewhere behind the scenes but what I've seen in the threads are opinions with some numbers attached, not empirically and experimentally determined conclusions.
I'm open and interested to seeing what you squirreloid, psychic_robot, and logic_ninja come up with. I will debate you, but I will try not to insult you when I do so.
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I went to a baseball game today. My first one as an adult actually. While we were waiting in line, a guy came up and gave us a handful of tickets. "My company gave me these and I can't use them. I just drove over to find someone who could use them. Enjoy the game." Then he went back to his car and drove off.
So, we went in without having to buy tickets. Around the 4th inning, I was about to go buy some snacks when my three year old handed me a $10 bill. She'd just picked it up off the ground. None of the adults around us would admit to it being theirs. So, I bought $6 worth of snow cones and went back to our seats $4 richer.
Our team lost, but I'm not really into sports anyhow, so it was no biggie.
The kids got to run around the diamond after. My daughter was a bit confused, so the mascot held her hand.
On our way out, some kid came over and said to my son: "Hey, we caught two of these frisbees today and we got them autographed. We don't need them both. Take one." The mascots had been throwing frisbees out to the fans.
Now, we don't look like we're poor or anything. This was my first baseball game, so I don't know if this is unusual.
All I can say is "Wow. Isn't it cool when a bunch of people who share a hobby can be so nice to each other about it. Really makes you wanna be there, eh?"
hehehhe
So endeth the sermon.
Tarren,
Unfair example. That was real life, not the Internet. At GenConUK, there was much discussion between pro4E and anti-4E delegates. The one I participated in over the civilising influence of curry was between one very anti-4e person who is never going to play, one pro-4E who likes the GM support and m who plays both, but much prefers 3.5/Pathfinder wearing my Ring of Fire Resistance. The discussion was animated but always respectful because the other person was right there.Also, I know lots of people who were inviting total strangers into their games when they expressed even the mildest interest and helping people who'd only played D&D once before to have a good time in the games. If we were having these discussions down the pub in real life, we'd probably have already written the perfect role playing game and be working on world peace, but as its the Internet, otherwise reasonable people become touchy, aggressive nutcases (if anyone is offended by that, I was talking about someone else. Honest.)
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First of all, as far as I know, the Internet is 'real'. Second of all, I wasn't being 'fair'. I was being preachy. Now, go with Saranrae's blessing.Tarren,
Unfair example. That was real life, not the Internet. ...
The Internet is a figment of the imagination. That's why everyone on it always knows they're right.
Of course, you knew my 'offense' was a joke, right?I'm still trying to figure out how Tarren Dei avoids fighting with his wife. Is it 'the wife is always right' rule?No, it is not the 'wife is always right rule'. I'm offended you would suggest that. It is more a matter of deciding which things we care about, which things we don't, and compromising on the overlap. Fortunately, there is not much overlap.
So, she gets to make decisions about where we live, what we eat, what I wear, who our friends are, where we go on vacation, and what we name the children. I get to make decisions about anything related to D&D.
That's fair, right?
Ahhh, I see. At least you're in charge of the important stuff. ;-)
Actually what you first describe is the essence of many relationships/interactions. Covey-principle if you will. Focus on important things (to both), navigate the middle, and avoid getting bogged down in the minutae. It's amazing how many people get hung up over stuff that doesn't matter much in relation to other things. Kinda like our debate on how to debate.
Actually, I stopped my query a bit short due a distraction and didn't realize that I failed to finish. It's better that way, since I think I was about to continue on the 'always right' theme as it relates to a number of recent discussions. And throw in a whole slew of husband/wife jokes. Sorry for the lapse.
Yep, you are not that easily offended. You said so yourself!
This is the ultimate 'munchkin' race. That word does not mean what you think it means.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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This is the ultimate 'munchkin' race. That word does not mean what you think it means.
???
There is a hyperlink to humans there. Since 'munchkin' was being used out of context to mean optimizer, I linked to the primary optimizer race. A plain, PHB human.
There is a hyperlink to humans there. Since 'munchkin' was being used out of context to mean optimizer, I linked to the primary optimizer race. A plain, PHB human.Oh. Okay.
So, optimizing characters is a very human thing to do. Agreed.
No. I was saying that humans are almost always the best race to play if you are looking to optimize your character. Not some obscure subrace (Whisper Gnome), not anything with an LA higher than 0 no matter how cool it looks, plain humans. The few exceptions to that rule is when your build requires something race specific such as having to be a Gnome in order to take levels of Shadowcraft Mage or elf substitution levels as a generalist wizard.
No. I was saying that humans are almost always the best race to play if you are looking to optimize your character. Not some obscure subrace (Whisper Gnome), not anything with an LA higher than 0 no matter how cool it looks, plain humans. The few exceptions to that rule is when your build requires something race specific such as having to be a Gnome in order to take levels of Shadowcraft Mage or elf substitution levels as a generalist wizard.
Opinion:
Humans are the most flexible race, and so they often help with the pre-reqs that CharOp types have to meet for all their dubious PrCs. I don't use Pre-reqs for Feats or PrCs, I use GM common sense, because I feel my game dying otherwise. The optimization game, while intellectually appealing, tends to detract from the actual game.
Humans are okay as-is. I'll probably play a half-orc for my next PC, even though Humans are "better", because I haven't played a half-orc yet.
EDIT: Woops, I broke a P_R "rule"! Someone revoke my posting license!
It's actually because the other races tend to only be good in their niche. Dwarves are fine if you're going for something heavy armor wearing that isn't Charisma based, decent as wizards... forget anything Cha based and/or requiring being able to move > 20 feet. The rest don't even really have a niche. Con penalties apply knees to the groin regardless of what you are (elf) for example. Fluff is whatever you want it to be. I made a Duskblade (you know, elven gish?) into a tribal orc warrior in 5 minutes just by changing the fluff slightly. Mechanically, it's still exactly the same. Minor changes of fluff also make barbarians monks, for example to illustrate another drastic change. So using fluff to justify mechanical failings just isn't a valid argument.
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Mentioned Baseball
It has been my personal experience that baseball is one of the 'politest' sports going. So much so that those few places where the average fan is rude are really looked down upon by the rest of us.
Sorry, incidentally that your team lost. Was it minor leagues (the prices suggest yes)? Minor league games tend to have a very 'homey' feel to them fan wise.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 8
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Mentioned BaseballIt has been my personal experience that baseball is one of the 'politest' sports going. So much so that those few places where the average fan is rude are really looked down upon by the rest of us.
Sorry, incidentally that your team lost. Was it minor leagues (the prices suggest yes)? Minor league games tend to have a very 'homey' feel to them fan wise.
Yep. Minor league. It was just really nice.