Here's a fun little challenge:
Find me an original source that describes elves as pointy-eared.
Tolkien's elves (not the be-all end-all of elves, but arguably the "original" as far as D&D is concerned) were never described with pointed ears. I'm actually curious where the pointy ear thing comes from.
Here's a fun little challenge:
Find me an original source that describes elves as pointy-eared.
Tolkien's elves (not the be-all end-all of elves, but arguably the "original" as far as D&D is concerned) were never described with pointed ears. I'm actually curious where the pointy ear thing comes from.
I believe it's from fairy tales and other such stories. Elves, sprites, fairies were all depicted with pointy ears. When Tolkien wrote of Elves, I guess people carried the pointy ear thing over.
I believe it's from fairy tales and other such stories. Elves, sprites, fairies were all depicted with pointy ears. When Tolkien wrote of Elves, I guess people carried the pointy ear thing over.
I've long suspected this to be the case. Is there an "elf expert" around who can explain where the pointy ears really come from?
It was probably meant to reflect the feral nature of fey spirits. In the times where those north European mythologies were actively believed (still are in some spots), Elves of all kinds were spirits to be feared and avoided, no matter of the Seelie or Unseelie court. Our current notion of elves would seem quite strange to the pre-Tolkien crowd.
So were pointy ears tantamount to devil horns? Do we know of any earlier art that veector speaks of? Now I'm really curious!
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Do we know of any earlier art that veector speaks of? Now I'm really curious!
Check out Arthur Rackham. He's the earliest example I can think of, but that applied more to "faerie"-like elves. The visual just crossed over with artists over the years and it's now something we take for granted.
Also, long ear fan here.
Check out Arthur Rackham. He's the earliest example I can think of, but that applied more to "faerie"-like elves. The visual just crossed over with artists over the years and it's now something we take for granted.
Nailed it Mikaze! Way to elevate the discourse. :)
Any illustration students out there with some time on their hands? Let's get back to fundamentals on this one. I'm curious to find the first documented instance in print that declares: "Elves have pointy ears."
'In print'? That will be a tough requirement to meet!
Lios Alfar and Svartalfar are the inspiration for Elves and Drow mainly, thought the Svartalfar were supposed to be twisted and dwarvish almost and were prodigious smiths. Note that they weren't actually dwarves though. Norse mythology has plenty of dwarves too, of course.
An interesting note is this, as far as I can determine, there is not any mention of long/pointed ears in the old legends. The only real criteria seems to be fairness of form, which is always stated in the eldest legends. What 'fair' is to the norse though is not necessarily what we see as that now.
On an odd note, in Norse myths, often Alfar were given the ability to move through walls or ghost about in other ways, owing to their non-mortal heritage. Just odd....
Maybe this will help...
Maybe this will help...
Aha! That does, in fact help. This whole time I'd been laboring under false assumptions...
Hm, "leaf shaped", eh? Not quite what I would call the ears of the elves of Golarion, but I suppose this isn't Tolkien, now is it?
More the 'Record of Lodoss War' look. If you've never seen it, its an anime I would strongly suggest! Very much D&D. There are two series, the original OAV series and the Record of Lodoss War TV series. Both are excellent, but I would suggest this order.
Watch Volume 1-4 (of 6) of the OAV, then watch the TV series. This makes the story, which is somewhat disjointed across the two series more cohesive. Then watch 5 and 6 of the OAV. While the storyline and ending are differnt, there are some really cool scenes at the end of the OAV series.
For the record, this is how I like my elves!
It is worth noting that Lodoss is very D&D because it is D&D. The first two Lododd stories (Parn and Orsin's stories) are replays (think story hours) of Ryo Mizuno's D&D games. Spark's story (the TV show) was played with Group SNE's house system.Character sketches and illustrations of science fiction author Hiroshi Yamamoto's character in these games (the elf Deedlit) are likely the first example of the large articulated eared elf in D&D.
I remember catching a japanese commercial for a fantasy RPG on one of the VHS tapes the first time I saw RoLW. The GM had this awesome yellow plastic horned helmet and would shout "Dice, Go!" every time he rolled. The exclamation, though not the helmet, briefly came into fashion around our gaming table.
I have to admit, it looked like fun.
This is a really funny thread to read. :D
As far as I know from reading folk lore of the northern region, that all the fey type creatures had pointy ears, and smaller the creature is, the longer the ears are.
I prefer having elves with medium sized ears, not ears longer that stick out above the top of the head.
I love the way elves are portrayed in Golarion - long, pointed ears, and awesome eyes. It ups the elfiness of elves to 11, and more elfiness is always a good thing! ^_^
I really like Elves as paizo depict them. To often elves are just pretty humans with slight pointie ears. Paizos elves feel much more alien than that.
Creative Director
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My players were commenting on those elf ears the other night while rolling up new PF characters. They wanted to know if they would act as stabalizers and provided a bonus to their fly skill. I must admit, it was so damn funny, I made it a house rule: Full-blood elves get +2 racial bonus to fly.
Does that mean that dwarves, with their silly huge mop-like beards, get a +2 racial bonus on Profession (janitor) checks?
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Chief Creative Officer, Publisher
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I should point out that the "final" version of Pathfinder elf ears is akin to what you see on Merisiel rather than the Drew Hayes/Poison Elves style mule ears on the elf in the "race lineup" picture from the Beta and elsewhere. The discrepancy is just one (of many) reasons we'll be redoing that picture before the final edition of the Pathfinder RPG.
Long live long ears. I like my elves with long ears. The pathfinder elves do not look like humans with pointy ears or halfelves, I like that
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Creative Director
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I should point out that the "final" version of Pathfinder elf ears is akin to what you see on Merisiel rather than the Drew Hayes/Poison Elves style mule ears on the elf in the "race lineup" picture from the Beta and elsewhere. The discrepancy is just one (of many) reasons we'll be redoing that picture before the final edition of the Pathfinder RPG.
Yeah; I'm looking forward to seeing a more on-model race lineup piece of art.
Ears and eyes on elves have been one of my crusades over the past several months, to get them all right.
Ears: do not stick out horizontal. Are pointed and long, rising close to the skull to a point just above the top of the skull, at an angle varying between 45º and 80º or thereabouts.
Eyes: Are black, blue, green, violet, or gold; large pupils, larger irises; we should NOT be able to see the whites of the eye; the eye itself is a little bit larger than a human eye.
I should point out that the "final" version of Pathfinder elf ears is akin to what you see on Merisiel rather than the Drew Hayes/Poison Elves style mule ears on the elf in the "race lineup" picture from the Beta and elsewhere. The discrepancy is just one (of many) reasons we'll be redoing that picture before the final edition of the Pathfinder RPG.
Yeah; I'm looking forward to seeing a more on-model race lineup piece of art.
Ears and eyes on elves have been one of my crusades over the past several months, to get them all right.
Ears: do not stick out horizontal. Are pointed and long, rising close to the skull to a point just above the top of the skull, at an angle varying between 45º and 80º or thereabouts.
Eyes: Are black, blue, green, violet, or gold; large pupils, larger irises; we should NOT be able to see the whites of the eye; the eye itself is a little bit larger than a human eye.
What about skin tone? Merisiel has a pink skin tone. Is that going to be the norm for Golarion elves or are they going to come in different hues(of course drow will be black or blue)?
Maybe this will help...
Aha! That does, in fact help. This whole time I'd been laboring under false assumptions...
Hm, "leaf shaped", eh? Not quite what I would call the ears of the elves of Golarion, but I suppose this isn't Tolkien, now is it?
Eyes: Are black, blue, green, violet, or gold; large pupils, larger irises; we should NOT be able to see the whites of the eye; the eye itself is a little bit larger than a human eye.
Crap! We'll never be able to kill them if we can't see the whites of their eyes!!!
: )
So do they either have few enough nerve ending that folding them up into their helmets doesn't hurt or due their tips just regrow when some bad guy comes along and lops the tips off ? I'd be surprised to *ever* see an elf of a warrior class with two full ears if they stick out a friggin foot or more.
For the record.. I *hate* the long ears almost entirely because of lodoss war.. Stupid anime craptasticizing up my fantasy. I like a good double human sized ear with a broader shell a higher back angled tip and no lobe starting at the eye line rather then the jaw line.
I don't really like the long ears, either, but I'm afraid it's pretty unlikely that they're going to be changed now with all of the existing art out there...
C:\documents and settings\user\my documents\my pictures\world of warcraft.jpg
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It is worth noting that Lodoss is very D&D because it is D&D. The first two Lododd stories (Parn and Orsin's stories) are replays (think story hours) of Ryo Mizuno's D&D games. Spark's story (the TV show) was played with Group SNE's house system.
Character sketches and illustrations of science fiction author Hiroshi Yamamoto's character in these games (the elf Deedlit) are likely the first example of the large articulated eared elf in D&D.
Actually in Japan there appeared a game called "Record of Loddoss Wars" which was influenced by D&D
and yes... this anime DID influence both my first 2 gaming groups where i DMstered
And yes... my players always saw long eared elf because of Deedlit... except the Tolkien Fan who hated the outlook... of small and delicate elfs... contrastring with Tolkien version of Tall and more powerful elves in comparison to humans...
I should point out that the "final" version of Pathfinder elf ears is akin to what you see on Merisiel rather than the Drew Hayes/Poison Elves style mule ears on the elf in the "race lineup" picture from the Beta and elsewhere. The discrepancy is just one (of many) reasons we'll be redoing that picture before the final edition of the Pathfinder RPG.
Yeah; I'm looking forward to seeing a more on-model race lineup piece of art.
Ears and eyes on elves have been one of my crusades over the past several months, to get them all right.
Ears: do not stick out horizontal. Are pointed and long, rising close to the skull to a point just above the top of the skull, at an angle varying between 45º and 80º or thereabouts.
Eyes: Are black, blue, green, violet, or gold; large pupils, larger irises; we should NOT be able to see the whites of the eye; the eye itself is a little bit larger than a human eye.
thanks for the depiction, i love that look :D
i love the alien and strange looking elves
Is the "Record of Lodoss War" RPG based on the Fusion system?
Weird, the "Record of Lodoss War" anime is one of the few that I really enjoyed watching.
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Is the "Record of Lodoss War" RPG based on the Fusion system?
Not the official one. There is a Lodoss RPG based on Fusion made by a fan, but the official game never came to the US. They originally tried to get TSR to make Lodoss an AD&D Campaign Setting, but TSR wasn't interested (a shame.)
The official Lodoss RPG doesn't actually have a system name that I know of, they made their own system.
Weird, the "Record of Lodoss War" anime is one of the few that I really enjoyed watching.
People never watch the bonus making of or whatever video that came with the original episodes. Lodoss, was indeed the creators D&D campaign. :)
Record of Lodoss War IMHO should be required viewing for every D&D fan. :)
I think they system they used was sword world. I could be wrong
Ah, you are correct, it is based off the Japanese RPG called Sword World. Lodoss is a region in Sword World RPG Setting.
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Creative Director
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What about skin tone? Merisiel has a pink skin tone. Is that going to be the norm for Golarion elves or are they going to come in different hues(of course drow will be black or blue)?
Skin tone for elves will range widely. Just as the drow can have dark blue, dark purple, black, or even gray skin, the rest of the elves will have a wide range of skin tones. The standard is Merisiel pink to a pretty deep tan, but there are lighter and darker colored elves as well.
Skin tone's not as important as eyes and ears and frame to make an elf, though.
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Creative Director
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So do they either have few enough nerve ending that folding them up into their helmets doesn't hurt or due their tips just regrow when some bad guy comes along and lops the tips off ? I'd be surprised to *ever* see an elf of a warrior class with two full ears if they stick out a friggin foot or more.
Golarion elf ears are generally six inches to ten inches long; a foot long isn't impossible, but it's unlikely. As I mentioned above, though, they won't "stick out" if I can help it. They'll "stick up."
As for helmets; an elf helm HAS to look different than those of other races, ears or not. Elves have narrow, slender heads; a human helm will be loose on an elf, I suspect. Elf helms account for the ears, in other words, and generally keep the ears inside the helm.
As for them being lopped off... check the elven general on the alternate cover of the first Second Darkness module. She's only got half an ear on the right side precisely because it got lopped off in one of countless fights.
Contributor, RPG Superstar 2008 Top 4, Legendary Games
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And for the record, just to show that likes and dislikes are even more complicated... I don't particularly care for Lodoss War; I watched several episodes and the animation and story just didn't do it for me. Yet still, I like elves with long ears! Madness, eh? :-)
I'm with you. It got a big meh from me after years and years of hearing how great it was.
It must be asked.
Since elves officially do have giant ears, do they have ear fetishes like the Ferengi? Do elves compliment each other by mentioning their lobes as in "you surely have the Lobes for Orc-Slaying"? Are an elf's ears really an accurate measure of other unmentionable assets?
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and the Rune Soldier TV show.
I'm an odd duck, I actually prefer Rune Soldier Louie over Lodoss War, primarily because it's so much more reflective of what really goes on in a DAD game.
That and it has a female character with 18 STR that actually looks like she has 18 STR.
True story, Legend Of Crystania actually did come about because of drugs.
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And for the record, just to show that likes and dislikes are even more complicated... I don't particularly care for Lodoss War; I watched several episodes and the animation and story just didn't do it for me. Yet still, I like elves with long ears! Madness, eh? :-)
Watched the OAVs or the Serie?
they are quite different in many aspects|
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And for the record, just to show that likes and dislikes are even more complicated... I don't particularly care for Lodoss War; I watched several episodes and the animation and story just didn't do it for me. Yet still, I like elves with long ears! Madness, eh? :-)Watched the OAVs or the Serie?
they are quite different in many aspects
Yes indeed. If you watched Chronicles of the Heroic Knight then you watched the wrong Lodoss. :)
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Yes indeed. If you watched Chronicles of the Heroic Knight then you watched the wrong Lodoss. :)
definitively...
ok.... that concept of the priestess of a God of War indeed sounds interesting in the extreme.... ok i haveright now to many characters... and no Pathfindergame... but i do liked the idea... will have to write it somewhere:D
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Creative Director
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It must be asked.
Since elves officially do have giant ears, do they have ear fetishes like the Ferengi? Do elves compliment each other by mentioning their lobes as in "you surely have the Lobes for Orc-Slaying"? Are an elf's ears really an accurate measure of other unmentionable assets?
Do dwarves have beard fetishes? Do halflings have foot fetishes? Do tieflings have tail fetishes?
Some do. Some don't. Same goes for elves.