[Designers] Question on Integrated Suggestions & the Paizo Use of WotC Races


Ability Scores and Races


I have two questions for the designers:

1) I would like to present a suggestion that impacts in an integrated manner on several areas, such as races and skills, but also others. Is this forum the appropriate venue to make such a suggestion?

2) Is Paizo going to be able to use some WotC proprietory races under other names? For example, it seems that using the Drow and simply calling them Dark Elves appears to work, but is this a special case, or will Paizo be able to utilize this approach with other races and monsters, albeit not in the initial book? For example, I love the Yuan-Ti, but they are WotC IP. On the other hand, perhaps if we simply called them Snakemen or Snakefolk (to be more gender neutral), they might be usable in official Paizo products, or am I mistaken?


Roman wrote:

I have two questions for the designers:

1) I would like to present a suggestion that impacts in an integrated manner on several areas, such as races and skills, but also others. Is this forum the appropriate venue to make such a suggestion?

General Discussion forum sounds like the place. But then again, anything that far-reaching would tend to tread heavily on the designer's principle mandates.

Roman wrote:


2) Is Paizo going to be able to use some WotC proprietory races under other names? For example, it seems that using the Drow and simply calling them Dark Elves appears to work, but is this a special case, or will Paizo be able to utilize this approach with other races and monsters, albeit not in the initial book? For example, I love the Yuan-Ti, but they are WotC IP. On the other hand, perhaps if we simply called them Snakemen or Snakefolk (to be more gender neutral), they might be usable in official Paizo products, or am I mistaken?

I'd like to be the first to suggest: The Serpentine. Okay, not really.


Roman wrote:

I have two questions for the designers:

2) Is Paizo going to be able to use some WotC proprietory races under other names? For example, it seems that using the Drow and simply calling them Dark Elves appears to work, but is this a special case, or will Paizo be able to utilize this approach with other races and monsters, albeit not in the initial book? For example, I love the Yuan-Ti, but they are WotC IP. On the other hand, perhaps if we simply called them Snakemen or Snakefolk (to be more gender neutral), they might be usable in official Paizo products, or am I mistaken?

The Second Darkness adventure path is still calling them Drow. Since the Drow are in the SRD, Pazio can still use them without having to rename them or get permission from WOTC to use them. The Yuan-Ti are not, so Paizo can't use them without special permission (such as the Scarred Lands setting got).


Basically, anything that Wizards could claim as a completely invented monster, rather than one adapted from mythology, got wrapped up in the "product identity" banner.

For example, mind flayers are IP. Despite their obvious influences from Cthulhu, they're mostly invented out of whole cloth.

The following are claimed by WOTC:

* beholder
* gauth
* carrion crawler
* displacer beast
* githyanki
* githzerai
* kuo-toa
* mind flayer
* slaad
* umber hulk
* yuan-ti

That being said, similar creatures could exist. Their were snake people in Death In Freeport, for example. It would have to be done carefully though, as anything too similar could be subject to a copyright suit.

Liberty's Edge

The Yuan-Ti are based on Robert Howard's Serpent Men, also know as the Children of Yig.

The Yuan-Ti, being Serpent Men with a serial number stamped on (to invert a common metaphor), can easily be recreated by returning to original sources. WOTC certainly can't claim copyright on the idea of serpent bodied people, art of which has been around since the dawn of civilization.

Yig-something would be a good replacement name. Yig-ra, Yig-ti, Yig-go, lot of possibly there.

Chitauri is another possible replacement name. According to wikipedia, "Chitauri is a term of Bantu/Nguni linguistic origin, used to describe shape-shifting reptoids, 'the family of the Serpent', believed to exist in parallel with man, 'the children of Adam'."

Yig-Chitauri?

That sounds kind of cool.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Golarion has serpentfolk; they'll be statted out in "Into the Darklands." They'll be similar to the ones from the Freeport setting, since they draw on the same pulp inspirations (Lovecraft, Howard, etc.).

Dark Archive

OOh serpent men does this mean there may be other animal/human races showing up at some point? (Pretty sure ive asked this before but maybe if I ask it enough times people will cave in and say yes.......or ban me whatever happens first:) )

Liberty's Edge

darth_borehd wrote:
* displacer beast

Based on the Coeurl from A. E. van Vogt story Black Destroyer, a large black cat with distended forelimbs and two tentacles sprouting from it's back and unusual abilities that make it difficult to hurt.

darth_borehd wrote:
* githyanki & githzerai

Created by George R. R. Martin in his 1977 science fiction novel Dying of the Light, and used without permission by TSR. Martin only found out about the use in 2000. In Martin's novel, the githyanki were called "soulsucks" because of their dangerous psychic powers. They were slaves of another alien race called the hrangans, and were used by them in their long space wars with humanity.

darth_borehd wrote:
* kuo-toa

The Kuo-Toa are Deep Ones, from many of H.P.Loecraft's stories. Only the name "Kuo-Toa" is original.

darth_borehd wrote:
* yuan-ti

Based on Howard's Serpent Men.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
Golarion has serpentfolk; they'll be statted out in "Into the Darklands." They'll be similar to the ones from the Freeport setting, since they draw on the same pulp inspirations (Lovecraft, Howard, etc.).

Sweet!

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Kevin Mack wrote:
OOh serpent men does this mean there may be other animal/human races showing up at some point? (Pretty sure ive asked this before but maybe if I ask it enough times people will cave in and say yes.......or ban me whatever happens first:) )

Lots of new races is unlikely... we're not including serpentfolk to start rounding out animal/human races. We're including serpentfolk because they have a strong tradition in the type of fantasy writing that inspired Golarion—the pulp adventures of writers like Robert E Howard, H P Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
Lots of new races is unlikely...

FYI this sits well with many of my players and friends.

-DM Jeff


Gailbraithe wrote:
(stuff about primary sources)

Yes yes yes.

Going a step back to the inspiration is the ultimate loophole tool. I hope the Paizo AP writers take close notice of your post, sir.

Liberty's Edge

James Jacobs wrote:
Lots of new races is unlikely... we're not including serpentfolk to start rounding out animal/human races. We're including serpentfolk because they have a strong tradition in the type of fantasy writing that inspired Golarion—the pulp adventures of writers like Robert E Howard, H P Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith.

I would rather not see a proliferation of new races in Golarion, because they never get spread far and wide enough to be notable. The occasional lost race living in seclusion is awesome, but adding any new race that is supposed to be a common element in all societies (like dwarves and halflings) just becomes problematic.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gailbraithe wrote:
I would rather not see a proliferation of new races in Golarion, because they never get spread far and wide enough to be notable. The occasional lost race living in seclusion is awesome, but adding any new race that is supposed to be a common element in all societies (like dwarves and halflings) just becomes problematic.

One race I would love to see are the Neanderthals. The version in Frostburn is bad, just another "big, dumb brute" race. A lost prehistoric group of Neanderthal humans is very pulpy and very cool. I would love to see something along those lines in a Pathfinder supplement. I actually use them in my campaign, and give them +2 Strength (they were more heavily built than Homo sapiens), +2 Charisma (they're good at reading other people, taken from Clan of the Cave Bear), -2 Dexterity (stocky, cold-adapted build means less flexibility).

[/threadjack]


Instead of ECL for player races, how about using the "negative level" concept for player characters?


rvdroz wrote:
Instead of ECL for player races, how about using the "negative level" concept for player characters?

I have an old thread suggesting exactly that, but it has not garnered many responses: http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/design/ability/levelAdjustmentSimpleSolutionP2956igpr


I am glad that something similar to the Yuan-Ti will make it to Pathfinder. Snakepeople are one of my favorite fantasy concepts. Just wondering, will the Serpentfolk have similar flavor/mechanics to the Yuan-Ti or will they be wholly different (apart from the serpentine similarities)?

Sovereign Court

Please tell me that they won't simply be called serpentmen. That's just too bland. Put a little brown sugar on that oatmeal! Chitauri (as suggested above) works great. It looks cool and is fun to say. And it is taken from real-world folklore.

RPG Superstar 2009 Top 16, 2012 Top 32

Gailbraithe wrote:
darth_borehd wrote:
* githyanki & githzerai
Created by George R. R. Martin in his 1977 science fiction novel Dying of the Light, and used without permission by TSR.

Maybe Paizo should get permission from George R. R. Martin to use his version of githyanki in Pathfinder. The ultimate IP loophole.


Damn, I'll miss the mind flayers... Serpentfolk works great!

Liberty's Edge

thefishcometh wrote:
Gailbraithe wrote:
I would rather not see a proliferation of new races in Golarion, because they never get spread far and wide enough to be notable. The occasional lost race living in seclusion is awesome, but adding any new race that is supposed to be a common element in all societies (like dwarves and halflings) just becomes problematic.

One race I would love to see are the Neanderthals. The version in Frostburn is bad, just another "big, dumb brute" race. A lost prehistoric group of Neanderthal humans is very pulpy and very cool. I would love to see something along those lines in a Pathfinder supplement. I actually use them in my campaign, and give them +2 Strength (they were more heavily built than Homo sapiens), +2 Charisma (they're good at reading other people, taken from Clan of the Cave Bear), -2 Dexterity (stocky, cold-adapted build means less flexibility).

[/threadjack]

mm think in the "grendels" of "Eaters of the dead" by Michael Chrichton, i would see the use of both strenght, but maybe wisdom like the half-orc, i only see theirleadersas being charismatic... but as penalty... i am not sure maybe charisma...i don't see them as not being as smart as "civiliced" folk, ok not quite academic, but the bastards were cunning without equal.

i like the Chitauri for the snake people :D sounds pretty cool and strange


thefishcometh wrote:

One race I would love to see are the Neanderthals. The version in Frostburn is bad, just another "big, dumb brute" race. A lost prehistoric group of Neanderthal humans is very pulpy and very cool. I would love to see something along those lines in a Pathfinder supplement. I actually use them in my campaign, and give them +2 Strength (they were more heavily built than Homo sapiens), +2 Charisma (they're good at reading other people, taken from Clan of the Cave Bear), -2 Dexterity (stocky, cold-adapted build means less flexibility).

[/threadjack]

The primitive template from Advanced Bestiary could be useful in this instance. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Roman wrote:

I have two questions for the designers:

1) I would like to present a suggestion that impacts in an integrated manner on several areas, such as races and skills, but also others. Is this forum the appropriate venue to make such a suggestion?

2) Is Paizo going to be able to use some WotC proprietory races under other names? For example, it seems that using the Drow and simply calling them Dark Elves appears to work, but is this a special case, or will Paizo be able to utilize this approach with other races and monsters, albeit not in the initial book? For example, I love the Yuan-Ti, but they are WotC IP. On the other hand, perhaps if we simply called them Snakemen or Snakefolk (to be more gender neutral), they might be usable in official Paizo products, or am I mistaken?

I would encourage you to look at the section of copyright law that refers to derivative work. Doing this sort of thing can be a legal mindfield, especially if Paizo is trying to keep a good working relationship open with WOTC.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Montalve wrote:

mm think in the "grendels" of "Eaters of the dead" by Michael Chrichton, i would see the use of both strenght, but maybe wisdom like the half-orc, i only see theirleadersas being charismatic... but as penalty... i am not sure maybe charisma...i don't see them as not being as smart as "civiliced" folk, ok not quite academic, but the bastards were cunning without equal.

i like the Chitauri for the snake people :D sounds pretty cool and strange

The Wendol in Eaters of the Dead were one of the things that inspired me. I highly recommend that book, it has a great story and a unique writing style that I have never seen in a mass market text. The proposed stats I used are a compilation from a number of fictional and real sources. They were probably stronger but less dextrous than humans, in real life, and I love the idea of their culture having a strong physical language (from Clan of the Cave Bear), which manifested itself as Charisma for me. I really think they could be a cool addition to Golarion, and super-pulpy, keeping with the flavor of the world.

Sorry about the further threadjacking.

Liberty's Edge

thefishcometh wrote:
Montalve wrote:

mm think in the "grendels" of "Eaters of the dead" by Michael Chrichton, i would see the use of both strenght, but maybe wisdom like the half-orc, i only see their leaders as being charismatic... but as penalty... i am not sure maybe charisma...i don't see them as not being as smart as "civiliced" folk, ok not quite academic, but the bastards were cunning without equal.

i like the Chitauri for the snake people :D sounds pretty cool and strange

The Wendol in Eaters of the Dead were one of the things that inspired me. I highly recommend that book, it has a great story and a unique writing style that I have never seen in a mass market text. The proposed stats I used are a compilation from a number of fictional and real sources. They were probably stronger but less dextrous than humans, in real life, and I love the idea of their culture having a strong physical language (from Clan of the Cave Bear), which manifested itself as Charisma for me. I really think they could be a cool addition to Golarion, and super-pulpy, keeping with the flavor of the world.

Sorry about the further threadjacking.

so +2 str +2 cha -2 dex?

could be, actually i like it: savage quasi human creatures arriving int he night killing everyone while taking the headsa nd leaving no one of their deads, believing themselves to be animals (taking the power of the ebar o changing into it) they could have Barbarian and Druid or Cleric (if you have a savage deity in mind) as favored classes

Dark Archive

James Jacobs wrote:
Kevin Mack wrote:
OOh serpent men does this mean there may be other animal/human races showing up at some point? (Pretty sure ive asked this before but maybe if I ask it enough times people will cave in and say yes.......or ban me whatever happens first:) )
Lots of new races is unlikely... we're not including serpentfolk to start rounding out animal/human races. We're including serpentfolk because they have a strong tradition in the type of fantasy writing that inspired Golarion—the pulp adventures of writers like Robert E Howard, H P Lovecraft, and Clark Ashton Smith.

Hmmm... maybe you could get Ed Greenwood to write about them? Just check out his fantastic 'Serpent Kingdoms' for 3E FR, and you'll see that he would be the perfect man to work on Golarion's serpent/yuan-ti races. :)


What he said. Serpent Kingdoms was indeed excellent.

Sovereign Court Contributor

My favourite use of Yuan-Ti previously was in Ghostwalk, by Monte Cook and Sean K Reynolds. I don't know if there is any way to get either or both of them involved in Pathfinder, but if so, it would be great! ;-P

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Craig Shackleton wrote:
My favourite use of Yuan-Ti previously was in Ghostwalk, by Monte Cook and Sean K Reynolds. I don't know if there is any way to get either or both of them involved in Pathfinder, but if so, it would be great! ;-P

Yuan-ti, in all their yuan-ti incarnations, are closed to us.

We're using serpentfolk though; they'll get stats in Into the Darklands.

Scarab Sages

Here's hoping for a Howard-like take on Serpent Men. Is Yig public domain?


James Jacobs wrote:


Yuan-ti, in all their yuan-ti incarnations, are closed to us.

We're using serpentfolk though; they'll get stats in Into the Darklands.

What will the serpentfolk interpretation be like in terms of flavor? Psionic like the Yuan-Ti, or magic/enchantment oriented, or leaning towards martial prowess, or something else entirely?


Gailbraithe wrote:


darth_borehd wrote:
* yuan-ti
Based on Howard's Serpent Men.

I think they are based also on H.P.L.'s Children of Yig (from "The Curse of Yig", 1928). However, since Lovecraft and Howard were pen-friends, it's easy to think that one author influenced the other.

Thinking of it... "Children of Yig"... scary.
I don't know if the name is already trademarked, though.

Community / Forums / Archive / Pathfinder / Playtests & Prerelease Discussions / Pathfinder Roleplaying Game / Design Forums / Ability Scores and Races / [Designers] Question on Integrated Suggestions & the Paizo Use of WotC Races All Messageboards
Recent threads in Ability Scores and Races