Is it me or do casters overpower melee classes past about lvl 5?


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LOL! So here we are seeing that they actually DID make the fighter capable of controlling enemy movement...in 4E.

I'm gonna beat on that horse a bit, because that is something the it does right. Isn't it bordering on ridiculous that every single time a mechanical problem pops up in 3E the solution is "create ANOTHER feat" has that helped to this point? OK, maybe here and there, but wow, how many "core" feats are there gonna be? What will THEY unbalance?

I had a ranged fighter in a game not too long ago. He whined and whined about being lame. Finally, I allowed him to bring a single feat from some cruddy splatbook in - Ranged Opportunity Attack, I believe it was. With a 24 Dex he was able to pull off as many as 10-14 attacks per round due to now threatening a 100' radius, as well as haing combat reflexes.

One teensy little feat, and my game balance was GONE. I worry more about the fix than I do the problem.

This is why I switched. 3E was not discontinued, it was abandoned. The fix for this is gonna have to be a complete mechanical rewrite. Bye bye backwards compatibility.

Of course, A bunch of the previously listed examples are using the spell compendium and MIC as source material. BAD IDEA. Those books are as evil as any 3rd party munchkin maker out there.

As for solutions, I got nothing. Then again, if you read my earlier posts, I'm no sure the "problem" here extends much past that groups DM.

Dark Archive

Donny_the_DM wrote:
I had a ranged fighter in a game not too long ago. He whined and whined about being lame. Finally, I allowed him to bring a single feat from some cruddy splatbook in - Ranged Opportunity Attack, I believe it was. With a 24 Dex he was able to pull off as many as 10-14 attacks per round due to now threatening a 100' radius, as well as haing combat reflexes.

Not to be a jerk, but I think some of the problems may have started with his Dex score.

And no, the fix is not a complete mechanical rewrite, nor is it converting to 4e so that martial classes can begin to compete with casters. When I get home from the office I will post some ideas I have about making melee classes scary as hell...and it will not require the barbarian to turn into a mini cyclones - shooting fireballs from their eyes and lighning bolts out of their arse


TWF sans bonus damage = not that great. Anything with DR probably isn't even affected.

Cleric as healbot indicates that the Cleric, and others do not know what they are doing, otherwise they would know there are ways of getting healing that do not involve a healbot.

Held actions would not let him attack unless the enemy came right next to him, and then if it doesn't he's just wasted his action.

None of these are striking me as effective in any way.

To the arena guy: Your challenge is pointless. I already know it's possible. Hell, I had a level 12 casting character killing people left, right, and center before they even get a turn. I put him against a level 20 Wizard who was abusing Shapechange, Time Stop, and other 9th level spells which I did not use. He also had Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil and Archmage. That fight was about evenly matched... Except I'm 8 levels lower, and intentionally avoiding the best tricks.

No melee could even hope to have a chance.

And if it were in PF instead? All the casters are the same or better. The melees are worse. It would not change anything.

In 4.0 all the challenges are so bland and generic that all you have to do to beat the many big sacks of HP is outrange them. Yup. Just like in the MMOs it is based on, kiting the dumb MOBs is the best strategy. At least then spamming your At Wills to take off the other 50% of its health is slightly less tedious.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Crusader of Logic wrote:
To the arena guy: Your challenge is pointless.

I am assuming that this is directed at me.

I wasn't talking about having the characters face off in an arena. I was talking about comparing everyday adventuring characters. If people want, they can certainly use the characters in an arena fight, as that is one type of scenario, but one that I have rarely come across. I would rather that people be able to run these characters thru multiple types of encounters, from out in the open, to inside small rooms/corridors/caverns, to ambushes.

Those of you in the spellcasters are superior crowd have provided mostly opinions with a few spells mentioned, but no real hard evidence that I can see. I am looking to have you provide the same character at 5th, 10th and 15th level. I will do the same for at least one fighter type, probably two (one melee and one ranged).

I am hoping that this will allow everyone to compare something a little more concrete. I feel that we are having differences of opinions without using the same terms of reference or interpretation of the rules.


Versus monsters? Ok. He kills at least one enemy a round. More, if they're closer together, or he does something besides attack. (yes, melee caster doing the job much better than a melee non caster) They cannot hit him with melee attacks unless they roll a natural 20 and beat 20% miss chance. They cannot hit him with ranged attacks unless they roll a natural 20 and beat 60% miss chance. Touch AC is high enough so that many enemies cannot hit on a non 20 either. He heals himself as a Swift action several times a day, if he needs to. This is without even trying, getting into things like Mirror Image, crowd control spells, etc.

That's beatstick and healer covered. Traps? He's pretty much immune to those as they're either attack based (see above) or save based (he must roll 2 natural 1s to fail). He can just set them off intentionally and not care, thereby saving skill points. Arcane? Arcane is crowd control. He lacks in this area. That's about it. This guy, and a Wizard could fight encounters by themselves and easily slaughter them.

If you're meaning a normal game, the optimization levels would not be so high. Even so, the guy who has as good or better offenses and defenses + utility is automatically better than the guy who has the same or lower stats and no other purpose. No need for a test.

Sovereign Court

This whole discussion really boils down to theory versus real world in game experience. In theory, all encounters would start with opponents 60 or more feet away in plain view or conveniently grouped so that an AoO save or suck spell takes them out. They never have a chance to get close to the wizard. Of course, the wizard has every spell to cover every scenario memorized or on scrolls. What kind of game does this happen in? I just haven't seen a campaign where every encounter boils down to "Wizard casts spell, disables all opponents, others just mop up." Like the old saying goes, no plan (or list of prepared spells) survives contact with the enemy. You also have to take into account that not all players of casters pour over the PHB to find the perfect spell for every type of encounter. They pick the spells they like and just have fun playing their character. This game is supposed to be about having fun instead of bragging how your character is better than everyone else's, etc. I have seen many encounters where the survival of the party hinged on everyone, sometimes especially the melee guys. The "imbalance" isn't that big of a deal to your average casual gamer. If, however, you view the whole game as proving how much more useful your character is compared to everyone else's, then I guess it could be viewed as problem by you and your friends.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
WotC's Nightmare wrote:
This whole discussion really boils down to theory versus real world in game experience.

Which is why I am asking the spellcaster is superior crowd to step up to the plate, and present a character at several levels, so that we can all look at the builds, and be able to determine if the spellcasters really are superior, or if it is playstyle/preferences/interpretations/etc... issues.


Straw man. You don't need the perfect spell, nor are spells that specific. A small number of spells cover a wide variety of situations. The only question left is whether or not you already cast it, except that since a few general spells do cover just about everything you can have multiples either prepared, scribed, whatever.

Here's a few examples of what happens when casters are caught off guard:

1: Teleport into lightning rail car. Enemies (various humanoid mercs) are waiting. Somehow, our casters got put on the front lines. Enemies attack. Attacks fail to hit due to various defenses in play. Shuffle the lines around, they start hitting the melees who they can hurt.

2: Dread Wraiths pop out of nowhere after our real opponent runs away again. Both try to attack my character. Again, defenses negate (and even if they had hit, I have an 80% chance to avoid the ability drain). Same fight, Wizard drops Chilling Fog on 2 stone golems in round 1, taking them out of the fight more than long enough to go after the real target since the party destroyed both Wraiths after that.

3: Just walking around Sharn, highly prepared casters teleport in, throw out their Shrink Item undead minions Pokemon style, and battle time. Zombies can't do much to you if you keep moving. Casters can't do much to you if you PW Stun them, passing SR checks. They would have killed my cohort if he didn't have a Greater Iron Ward Diamond and a Greater version of that cold resistance crystal as he ended the fight with 55 HP left, those two blocked 86 damage, and the best I could do for healing is 41 repaired since I don't have Total Repair yet.

A lesser version of the same encounter caught the psychic warrior off guard. He was -9ed in 2 rounds.

Conclusion: It is not nearly as hard as you think it is for casters to be prepared. They deal better with surprise than anyone else.


Greetings

I am just starting to work through the PF beta.

I now know from this thread why I run low-medium level games when I play 3.5 :-)

If, as asserted, the casters are that much more capable at almost all tasks than others then what are the proposed fixes?

One thing I have done in the past is to make casting non-automatic - so a Spellcraft or Concentration roll to cast any spell. The drawback to this is that the impact is greater at lower levels when the problem appears to be more limited.

Regards

Edward


Change every monster, or boost non casters considerably. Only way to do it. You nerf the casters and do nothing else, you get a 1 - 1 = 0 approach where the whole party can no longer keep up with their enemies.


Greetings

Crusader of Logic wrote:
Change every monster, or boost non casters considerably. Only way to do it. You nerf the casters and do nothing else, you get a 1 - 1 = 0 approach where the whole party can no longer keep up with their enemies.

Presumably because going with backward compatibility and published scenarios/APs you would have reduced the overall capability of the party but not of their opponents?

As I don't use much published stuff - and often modify those I do use - this would not be a signficant issue for me. However I can see it might be not a commercially bright idea for paizo.

Regards

Edward


Exactly. Backwards compatibility is already violated and merely inhibits any and all ability to do what is actually required to do what it claims to do. Either non casters must have the options to deal with varied encounters available to them, or all enemies must be changed so that simple is good enough. In the latter case, we have 4.0 where combat boils down to beating on the huge sack of scaling HP aka Final Fantasy 8.

Scarab Sages

Crusader of Logic wrote:


Held actions would not let him attack unless the enemy came right next to him, and then if it doesn't he's just wasted his action.

I just wanted to point out that you can take a 5ft step as part of a readied action.

It might also be possible to charge as part of a readied action, as you are allowed to charge when restricted to "standard action or a move action [on your turn]". The debatable part is whether you consider the readied action part of your "turn". I can't find anything in the FAQ to argue this.

Sovereign Court

In all the 3.0/3.5 games I have played in, I have never seen casters even come close to dominating the game as much as you claim. It just doesn't happen in your everday game. You can spout off all kinds of scenarios where you just say "Wizard casts x and the encounter is over." That's all well and good, but more often than not, it's wizard casts x, and monster saves or wizard fails caster check to overcome SR. There's also, wizard wants to cast x, but will get his allies, or he can't because he cast x last encounter, etc. etc. I don't know what kind of games you play in where everythng magically falls into place so that "Wizard casts x,and encounter is over 90% of the time." There are too many variables even for the versatile wizard to be prepared all of the time. You can say it all you want, and maybe you personally have seen it a lot, but many players never see what you claim to see in actual game play.


Crusader of Logic wrote:
Change every monster, or boost non casters considerably. Only way to do it. You nerf the casters and do nothing else, you get a 1 - 1 = 0 approach where the whole party can no longer keep up with their enemies.

This arguement is flawed in that it assumes that nerfing casters automatically leads to a party being unable to 'keep up with their enemies'.

(edited, naming names)
Furthermore, nothing I have seen so far indicates that Beta will adopt the 'exception based design' of other systems for monsters; thus any enemies with spellcasting builds (Rise of the Runelords spoiler:
Spoiler:
Xanesha, Barl, and Mokumrian for a start)
will become correspondingly nerfed, making them easier to handle.


Crusader of Logic wrote:

In 4.0 all the challenges are so bland and generic that all you have to do to beat the many big sacks of HP is outrange them. Yup. Just like in the MMOs it is based on, kiting the dumb MOBs is the best strategy. At least then spamming your At Wills to take off the other 50% of its health is slightly less tedious.

Spoken like someone who's never played 4e. You don't have to like it, but you don't need to pretend it's something it's not. HURR DURR IT'S AN MMO is old, tired, and as true of 3e as of 4e (just look at how important items are and how you need them to beat level-appropriate enemies).


Max Gorinevsky wrote:
Crusader of Logic wrote:

In 4.0 all the challenges are so bland and generic that all you have to do to beat the many big sacks of HP is outrange them. Yup. Just like in the MMOs it is based on, kiting the dumb MOBs is the best strategy. At least then spamming your At Wills to take off the other 50% of its health is slightly less tedious.

Spoken like someone who's never played 4e. You don't have to like it, but you don't need to pretend it's something it's not. HURR DURR IT'S AN MMO is old, tired, and as true of 3e as of 4e (just look at how important items are and how you need them to beat level-appropriate enemies).

I have played 4e and your right it's not an MMO, it's a terrible wargame, devoid of the things that gave 3.x and previous editions (can't speak of 1st ed or orginal DnD mind) the character, some of these things were flaws granted, and they need to be addresed, but not by removing the good with the bad and turning into a game thats near impossible to play w/o mini's as opposed to difficult but do-able.


The argument is valid in that in normal encounters (DM is not specifically setting out to 'get' anyone) non casters cannot keep up, and casters are ultimately doing all the work via rendering the enemies dead/crippled/etc so that there is little left but clean up, and when they don't the non casters get torn apart in 1-2 rounds. You nerf casters, you reduce their ability to safeguard everyone else with these effects. Ergo, enemies are free to tear non casters apart in 1-2 rounds.

To the 4.0 guy: Seriously. Read the rulebook. From the 'skill challenge' bits, to the monster entries... it is exactly what you'd expect from some video game bestiary, format and all. You go nova with your dailys, still don't kill the first routine encounter of the day, auto attack the huge sack of HP with your at wills. Repeat, or five minute workday it. And since stuff scales even when it doesn't make sense to (so the torch is a level 10 fire now?) it gets the FF8 effect where enemies level up as you do so there never is any actual progress.

Further, the enemies are all about the same. Even NES RPGs managed to give enemies different abilities. This is more like that guy who only learned how to change sprites. Because it is so bland and generic, about the most tactical thing you can ever do is outrange and kite the MOB.


Crusader of Logic wrote:

The argument is valid in that in normal encounters (DM is not specifically setting out to 'get' anyone) non casters cannot keep up, and casters are ultimately doing all the work via rendering the enemies dead/crippled/etc so that there is little left but clean up, and when they don't the non casters get torn apart in 1-2 rounds. You nerf casters, you reduce their ability to safeguard everyone else with these effects. Ergo, enemies are free to tear non casters apart in 1-2 rounds.

To the 4.0 guy: Seriously. Read the rulebook. From the 'skill challenge' bits, to the monster entries... it is exactly what you'd expect from some video game bestiary, format and all. You go nova with your dailys, still don't kill the first routine encounter of the day, auto attack the huge sack of HP with your at wills. Repeat, or five minute workday it. And since stuff scales even when it doesn't make sense to (so the torch is a level 10 fire now?) it gets the FF8 effect where enemies level up as you do so there never is any actual progress.

Further, the enemies are all about the same. Even NES RPGs managed to give enemies different abilities. This is more like that guy who only learned how to change sprites. Because it is so bland and generic, about the most tactical thing you can ever do is outrange and kite the MOB.

(edited, clarity)

If non casters are 'getting torn apart' in 1-2 rounds unless a relatively (by PC standards) overpowered spellcaster intervenes, that seems to me a problem with the CR system; not with other classes being unable to match a spell-casters' level of awesomeness.

Further Edit:
Getting back to Paizo & Beta, I know they at Paizo (and their fiends at Necromancer Games) have some specialist monster builders; I would hope that they can re-evaluate the CR system successfully.


Double-posted. Smurf.


The issue is non casters are negated so easily it often happens by complete accident. Because of this, it doesn't matter what their pluses are, they get annihilated. It just helps that such things as AC being a yes/no stat and monsters probably being better at full attacking than you are in effect. Either way, to even begin to fix it you must automatically dismiss any illusion of backwards compatibility.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Crusader of Logic wrote:
The issue is non casters are negated so easily it often happens by complete accident. Because of this, it doesn't matter what their pluses are, they get annihilated. It just helps that such things as AC being a yes/no stat and monsters probably being better at full attacking than you are in effect. Either way, to even begin to fix it you must automatically dismiss any illusion of backwards compatibility.

CoL,

Given you've said this numerous times on several thread (emphasis mine), why do you still continue to post here? Because that isn't going to happen. It's been stated numerous times by the people actually writing the PFRPG that it's a smoothing not a complete rewrite. As you don't seem happy with that, you're wasting your time and energy by continuing to demand something that is not going to happen.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Crusader of Logic wrote:
Straw man.

Please refrain from the gratuitous insults. They neither help nor advance the discussion in any manner. Quite the opposite, they tend to lessen your arguments, and from what I have heard (and often do myself) people will skip any posts by those they deem to be irrelevant, regardless of how valid their arguments are.

Crusader of Logic wrote:
Here's a few examples of what happens when casters are caught off guard

Please explain how all of that happened. Anyone can say, well no one could hit me, so I just killed them all. With out explanations, this argument does not prove anything.

Hmmm, perhaps I should be more direct.

Crusader of Logic, I challenge you to produce a 5th level, a 10th level and a 15th level version of the same spellcaster, listing all the gear, spells known, spells memorized, etc..

Prove that your argument has merit, that you don't need "meat shield" fighters, that they are outclassed regardless of what they do.

Sovereign Court

I guess that I was hallucinating during all of the sessions I have seen the melee guys, at various levels in varying encounters, be completely vital to the survival of the party. Just last night, in several brutal encounters, the casters were useful, while the melee guys were absolutely essential. They weren't there to just be the wizards bodyguards or to mop up after he casts "end encounter x" which "always" works. They were the only thing that kept the encounters from being a TPK. This wasn't a fluke either. I have seen it time and time again. I cannot reconcile real, in game observations with the theory that melee guys are absolutely useless compared to the casters. Your game experiences must be completely different than mine.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

LogicNinja, here is my critique of your 11th level wizard.

Edited to include a link to LogicNinja's 11th level wizard.
here

Spells memorized list:
You seem to be missing Mage Armor (important, as it is part of your main AC)

Where are all these bonus spells coming from? They are not listed in the Beta.

Hmm, how is it that you get a contingency spell with an immediate action to trigger? I cannot find anything that allows that to happen. Yes, if the conditions are met, but, I do not believe that if you set the conditions as a command, that it would be an immediate action. So, could you please provide a page reference, or explanation?

Spell known list:
Missing Mage Armor at 1st level (important, as it is part of your main AC)
Missing Fox’s Cunning (needed to craft the Headband of Intellect) and Bear’s Endurance (needed to craft the belt of physical might) at 2nd level.

Beta wrote:


Materials and Costs: Materials for writing the spell cost 100 gp per page.

I am aware that for you to “duplicate” a spellbook, the cost is only 50gp per page. But you have to have them in the original book first, so I do not believe that you can use the cost reduction when scribing new spells into your spellbook.

So, for your 53 spell levels added to your spell book, your cost is 5300 for scribing them into your book. Add in the missing 5 levels, your scribing cost has now gone to 5800 gp. As well, you have a cost of 2950 for access to the spells. For a total of 8750 gp, not 2650.

Beta wrote:
In most cases, wizards charge a fee for the privilege of copying spells from their spellbooks. This fee is usually equal to the spell’s level × 50 gp.

Gear list:

CRAFT - Belt of Physical Might (CON/DEX) +2, the cost should be 10 000 gp, not 5000, as you need to be 12th level to craft this item.

CRAFT - Amulet of Natural Armor +2, the cost should be 8000 gp, not 4000, as the spell needed to create the item is a druid/ranger spell.

Arcane Bond: I am assuming that this is not the first spell that has been enchanted into your wand bond. I am assuming that you enchanted the wand as soon as you could, at first level, then when drained, enchanted it with ....... until you got to Greater Invisibility. So, you are at least missing the cost of the 1st level spell, which is 375 gp

MW Tool (Tumble): could you explain exactly what this tool is, what it looks like, how it helps you tumble, etc... At the moment, it looks like an exploit.

You seem to be missing the 1500 gp statuette that is the focus for your contingency spell.

I see no mundane weapon at all. So, how do you do your clean up duties?

Total cost for your gear is 83 000 gp, so, 17 000 over the suggested limit.

General comments:
I take it that you use the metamagic rod of extension on your mage armor spell (well, once you include it :)). Leaving 2 uses of the rod for the rest of the day. As well, leaving you more vulnerable for 2 hours a day.

Hmm, having your wand sundered would not be good would it? You seemed to find this an illogical action the other day.

So, you wander around with a wand in your hand, at all times? Or if it is in a bandolier, then it can be a target of theft (urban or dungeon).

As well, how do you get the right scroll out, without having to take actions to retrieve them or sort them? You have mentioned a handy haversack, but I don't see anything like it on your gear list.

Where is the versatility?
I see no way to open locks, summon a “meat shield”, stealthing spells (Greater Invisibility doesn't really count for that, as it is such a short duration), etc...
What I mostly see are combat spells.

I also don't see a way for you to carry off a lot of loot.

I do plan on using your wizard against my usual players to see what will happen. Yes, I admit that I may not play him as well as you do, but I will attempt to do the build justice.


Declaring that your argument is a logical fallacy is not an insult, gratuitous or otherwise. At worst, it is attacking your idea. Seeing as you are attacking my idea, it is rather hypocritical to call such things an insult. They are not, by the way.


Crusader of Logic wrote:
The issue is non casters are negated so easily it often happens by complete accident. Because of this, it doesn't matter what their pluses are, they get annihilated. It just helps that such things as AC being a yes/no stat and monsters probably being better at full attacking than you are in effect. Either way, to even begin to fix it you must automatically dismiss any illusion of backwards compatibility.

I don't dispute that adjusting the CR of monsters (as 'part of a fix' for Beta) to better reflect the challenges that they actually present to a 4-man 'standard' cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard party would have an impact on backwards compatibility.

Could you please be clearer and list half a dozen examples of the most prominent ways in which non-casters are most often negated, in play, in your experience?


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Crusader of Logic,

name calling is insulting, and not needed.


Crusader of Logic wrote:

To the 4.0 guy: Seriously. Read the rulebook. From the 'skill challenge' bits, to the monster entries... it is exactly what you'd expect from some video game bestiary, format and all. You go nova with your dailys, still don't kill the first routine encounter of the day, auto attack the huge sack of HP with your at wills. Repeat, or five minute workday it. And since stuff scales even when it doesn't make sense to (so the torch is a level 10 fire now?) it gets the FF8 effect where enemies level up as you do so there never is any actual progress.

Further, the enemies are all about the same. Even NES RPGs managed to give enemies different abilities. This is more like that guy who only learned how to change sprites. Because it is so bland and generic, about the most tactical thing you can ever do is outrange and kite the MOB.

You've never played the game. That's not how it works. I'm not going to argue about it because you've made up your mind without having played it (or even read it thoroughly enough to see how none of that is true), but I suggest that until you have played the game, you stop talking about how it plays.


Mistwalker wrote:

Crusader of Logic,

name calling is insulting, and not needed.

Calling an argument a straw man is no more insulting than calling the sky blue. It just is, there is nothing personal about it. It sounds as if you cannot handle simple disagreement.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Crusader of Logic wrote:
The issue is non casters are negated so easily it often happens by complete accident. Because of this, it doesn't matter what their pluses are, they get annihilated. It just helps that such things as AC being a yes/no stat and monsters probably being better at full attacking than you are in effect. Either way, to even begin to fix it you must automatically dismiss any illusion of backwards compatibility.

I don't dispute that adjusting the CR of monsters (as 'part of a fix' for Beta) to better reflect the challenges that they actually present to a 4-man 'standard' cleric, fighter, rogue, wizard party would have an impact on backwards compatibility.

Could you please be clearer and list half a dozen examples of the most prominent ways in which non-casters are most often negated, in play, in your experience?

It's simple really. In order for non casters to even begin to be relevant, they must hyperspecialize in their chosen shtick. Be it tripping, archery, or just hitting with a big ****ing axe, hyperspecialization is required for basic competence.

Now, let's say you're a melee. Ok. You hit the thing with the other thing. Most of your WBL is going to basic staples the CR paradigm assumes that you have, thereby making the +x to y stat stuff such as stat boosting items, cloaks of resistance, etc must haves. What little you have left you have to try to diversify with. You might try Haste, for more/better attacks and more mobility, fly to well... fly... you get the idea. Problem. You can't hope to get them all. Not even close. So you end up with stuff like you got the flying item, so you can deal with the enemy atop a wall. But because of that, you couldn't get the teleport item so when he traps you in a wall you're screwed. Or it goes the other way around, you escape the Wall or whatever but can't get up the wall after him. Very simple circumstances such as this completely negate him as he is that easily shut down. Alternately you are an archer. You don't care if the guy is on the wall, you can still shoot him. Wall around you still hurts. Wind Wall completely negates you unless you have a Force bow meaning you spent somewhere between 16k to 56k to negate a 3rd level spell depending on existing enhancement of the weapon...

Tripper? Anything bigger than you and/or four legged becomes increasingly resistant/immune. This happens increasingly often with levels.

Once enemies start using more advanced tactics it becomes worse as the ability of non casters to negate such tactics drops further. Hell, non casters cannot even do something as simple as 'protect person x' without specific builds, PRCs, etc.

They are not adaptable. Battles require adaptability. Period.


Crusader of Logic:
If I understand correctly your position is that to be effective a non-caster *must* specialise, but that such techniques are highly situation dependent and in any situation to which they are not geared their effectiveness is reduced to the point of being almost useless?

The Exchange

Jal Dorak wrote:
Crusader of Logic wrote:


Held actions would not let him attack unless the enemy came right next to him, and then if it doesn't he's just wasted his action.

I just wanted to point out that you can take a 5ft step as part of a readied action.

It might also be possible to charge as part of a readied action, as you are allowed to charge when restricted to "standard action or a move action [on your turn]". The debatable part is whether you consider the readied action part of your "turn". I can't find anything in the FAQ to argue this.

A held action merely shifts you down the initiative rungs, giving you full actions for a round as long as the trigger is enacted. "I engage the moment the enemy moves" is a good trigger.

Or "I hold my action to intercept any enemy that gets within 20ft of the group" also works nicely.

I even allow something like "I hold my action until a creature moves within my charge range then charge it" as that sounds feasable for a person to do.

They can be more specific of course

My other option of being within 5ft step means the following usually happens. - Enemy moves to engage opponent. Due to move action they can only make a single attack (unless they have pounce or similar). My fighter then 5ft steps and full attacks the crap outa him. This one isn;t perfect as creatures with reach are an issue and it also means the mage gets hit at least once. But it does mean the beasty has to make a decision about whether geting close to a damge machine like the barbarian is worth it for a single shot at a caster. That's usually a life or death decision.

Duel wield is great. With the new DR stuff enabled my guys can handle most things with ease. In addition, the fighters (using splat books becasue we own them and are testing the back compatability as much as the new rules) have metalline weapons from magic item compendum. You can change its consistancy to almost all metal types to defeat DR. Given my knowledgable party members often use an action to identify weakness of opponents as soon as possible, this helps on the guess work. (I rule that if you've never come across an opponent type before, you need to roll knowledge checks for knowing there strengths etc. I don't allow metagaming. Anything below DC 20 takes no time as I feel its common knowledge, anything above this takes a standard action as you search your memory for obscure knowledge). Removing some of the metagaming makes it more fun for my guys at least, I know there are parties that don't do this and works for them.

They can teleport 60ft to intercept (though that uses their action as it activates a magic item). Half of them can fly with the wings they have (never actually remember the name of that item). The swashbuckler took ranks in fly since he's a skill fighter as much as anythign else. Now he can fly in the five foot square "Above" an opponent and provide flank for everyone. (Not official rules I think. I had to GM rule that one and used the concept of the diagonal rule in a three dimensional space. Feel free to critique this one as I havn't really explored its long term consequences). Those of you who know the swashbuckler realise he's a flank fighter and doesn't shine unless flanking. Swashbuckler isn't a great fighting class but its not being looked at in Beta. When we understand the beta a little better we're gonna look at this class ourself.

Next chance I get, I'll post my mates dual wielding co-hort for you guys to pull appart. It will be interesting to get your take on it actually as we're still getting fmailiar with the Pathfinder rule set and I'm not sure he hasn't bent rules. Hell, I'm not sure I havn't bent rules. We've played so long now with certain rules and interpretations I often forget which is house ruled and which is books.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Crusader of Logic:

If I understand correctly your position is that to be effective a non-caster *must* specialise, but that such techniques are highly situation dependent and in any situation to which they are not geared their effectiveness is reduced to the point of being almost useless?

That about sums it up. Whereas if you need less specialization to achieve basic competency, you have a lot more situations you can meaningfully participate in. Say you can be competent in melee, and with a bow at the same time. Not unreasonable. Enemy is on a wall, you pull out your bow. Maybe it's a bit weaker, but not enough to shift you into utter uselessness territory.

Enemy is behind a Wind Wall, you melee. Now to be useless, it needs to be on a wall, and behind a Wind Wall. You are harder to negate by far even by a mere second option. Throw in tripping, and he probably has something to deal with many situations.

Edit: Why would you house rule nerf Knowledges to waste the first round of combat?

The Exchange

Crusader of Logic wrote:
[Edit: Why would you house rule nerf Knowledges to waste the first round of combat?

IT was about obscure knowledge and choices. My guys don't have to make the check. They don't have to go for really obscure stuff.

With common monsters found on their home plane I don't put the action use in. For anything plane shifting or really unusual (or unique, as often happens in the AP's) Then I rationlise the knoweldge as a study of the creature and trying to match it to similar creatures for its weaknesses.

I've seen problem solving in action, most times it takes longer than a few seconds to even get your head around the problem, let alone start thinking about a solution. I tried to rationalise this into our games without completely nerfing the skill. In a combat situation where you're under pressure to work out something while that something is coming at you with big nashy teeth, I figure it takes some time.

Note: I only do this for the FIRST time they encounter a type of creature. After that its up to them to remember or I shift the knowledges down a notch in their obscurity. (if I'm feeling particularly mean and they've forgotten what they learnt, as people do).

This is a house rule, it works for my group (they actually agree with my rationalisation) and it does come up in use i play occasionally. When fighting a creature and the forst round is useless because it ignores everything your doing, it might be worth it to take time to think about its unique abilities.

Mostly, it was about having a game mechanic that limited Metagaming.


Crusader of Logic (question to Wrath removed) wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Crusader of Logic:

If I understand correctly your position is that to be effective a non-caster *must* specialise, but that such techniques are highly situation dependent and in any situation to which they are not geared their effectiveness is reduced to the point of being almost useless?

That about sums it up. Whereas if you need less specialization to achieve basic competency, you have a lot more situations you can meaningfully participate in. Say you can be competent in melee, and with a bow at the same time. Not unreasonable. Enemy is on a wall, you pull out your bow. Maybe it's a bit weaker, but not enough to shift you into utter uselessness territory.

Enemy is behind a Wind Wall, you melee. Now to be useless, it needs to be on a wall, and behind a Wind Wall. You are harder to negate by far even by a mere second option. Throw in tripping, and he probably has something to deal with many situations.

Re-evaluating CRs might reduce the basic competancy levels required for combat situations.

Had you assessed the effect additional feats under the Beta system have on trying to keep up with a 'basic level of competency'? Characters now get a feat at every odd-numbered level, and bonus feats for various classes (monks, fighters, wizards, etc) have still been left in place as far as I can tell.
Classes dependant on gear for achieving basic competency in several different fields may still experience difficulties...


Most of the good non caster feats are weaker such as Power Attack and Improved Trip. You aren't getting more if each unit is worth less or the same at best. Also, given all the talk of non OGL I doubt mentioning the non core stuff is valid, though 3 extra feats might make a difference there (most likely taking the Fighter dip out of the martial build).

To fix versatility, feats need to be stronger, not weaker. The WF line is worth one, maybe two feats for example. Not 4. Hell, Melee Weapon Mastery (Bludgeoning, Piercing, or Slashing) is -0/-2 behind the entire line by itself and covers more than one weapon. Since +1 to hit is equal to +2 to damage, you have a 4 feat line worth 4 points when a single feat should be giving 3 points, at least and under broader conditions.

Edit: By the way, the character making the Knowledge check likely has a super genius intellect (19 or better). You do not. For that matter, I do not. Just because it might take a normal person a few seconds does not mean what is essentially a super hero (or villain) will not be faster.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Crusader of Logic wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:

Crusader of Logic,

name calling is insulting, and not needed.

Calling an argument a straw man is no more insulting than calling the sky blue. It just is, there is nothing personal about it. It sounds as if you cannot handle simple disagreement.

It does not look like you called the argument a straw man, but myself. The "man" part kinda gives it away, as well as calling me "arena man" earlier. Perhaps it may be that because English is not my first language, I am reading it wrong, but I do not believe so.

I can handle disagreement just fine, and actually enjoy the discussions were not everyone one has the same opinion. You learn more that way.

However, I am noticing that you haven't explained any of the situations where you claim that nothing non-casters can do can hurt you. Nor are you presenting the character builds that you claim can do this easily.

I am wondering why you appear to be reluctant to do so?


I assumed you were familiar with the logical fallacy known as a straw man already. Also, builds take time to write. I'll cover Artificers when I have time. The other CO people will handle Clerics, Druids, Wizards... or not, as they so choose. I'm best qualified to cover Artificers though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Also, I have explained it before. It's simple really.

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee attack. They miss, due to my AC being higher than anyone else.

Enemy tries to attack me with a ranged attack. They miss, due to my 50% miss chance vs ranged as long as I move at least 10 feet which I have absolutely no reason not to do.

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee or ranged attack (this includes targeted spells). I interrupt that as an Immediate action with a Greater Mirror Image. There are now up to 8 decoys, meaning the chance they can even try to hit the real me is 1:(number of images +1, max 9).

These aren't perfect, especially alone but together means unless they do nothing but focus on me for the last 1-3 rounds of their lives they can't really do much. This isn't even the complete list.

Greater Mirror Image alone covers everything except AoEs, which I can Swift action heal away if I care, or just finish the fight then deal with the nickel and diming. Since nearly every AoE effect is energy based, multiple options exist such as the Energy Immunity armor/shield property, contingent or precast Energy Resistance/Protection, and so forth. I've just shrugged off the few AoE effects the enemy used, so this aspect isn't even necessary yet.

Also, all of this assumes they can even find me. HiPS from an item, stealth boosts from an item... In anywhere except broad daylight, the DC to find me if I use my new stealth approach is in the low 30s, at least. That assumes I roll a 1 on Stealth, and stand right in front of them. Distance penalties apply at -1 per 10 feet. I don't even have ranks in those skills. That automatically disqualifies anyone who doesn't have their perception skills maxed. It also assumes I'm not Invisible, which is a easy +20.

Sure, these measures have counters. How many enemies are capable of bypassing every layer before they die? Exactly. One thing doesn't work, I try something else. I'm still not trying hard by the way.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Crusader of Logic wrote:
I assumed you were familiar with the logical fallacy known as a straw man already. Also, builds take time to write. I'll cover Artificers when I have time. The other CO people will handle Clerics, Druids, Wizards... or not, as they so choose. I'm best qualified to cover Artificers though.

Apparently I do not know it by that term. Languages again.

Hmm, harder to argue the case with non Beta and Golarion classes, spells, etc..

Then could you explain your 4 examples from earlier?


Mistwalker wrote:
Crusader of Logic wrote:
I assumed you were familiar with the logical fallacy known as a straw man already. Also, builds take time to write. I'll cover Artificers when I have time. The other CO people will handle Clerics, Druids, Wizards... or not, as they so choose. I'm best qualified to cover Artificers though.

Apparently I do not know it by that term. Languages again.

Hmm, harder to argue the case with non Beta and Golarion classes, spells, etc..

Then could you explain your 4 examples from earlier?

See edit.

PF melees are weaker. PF casters are stronger. The enemies are the same. No need to go into further detail.

You will have to remind me which examples you mean. I have given dozens of examples on this forum.

By the way, normal Mirror Image works almost as well as Greater provided you have a round to burn. Or make it Contingent and not even need the Immediate action. Either way.

The Exchange

Crusader of Logic wrote:


Edit: By the way, the character making the Knowledge check likely has a super genius intellect (19 or better). You do not. For that matter, I do not. Just because it might take a normal person a few seconds does not mean what is essentially a super hero (or villain) will not be faster.

What do you mean I don't have super genius intellect!!! :)

I have actually taught geniuses, and even they don't identify and solve problems in this short period of time. (I teach high school science and maths. While I may not be a genius, some of the kids I've tought certainly were)

Actually, even experts in their fields take time to recollect obscure knowledge. Sometimtes it comees down to seeing something and identifying it before you can recall everything about it. Also there's the whole case of getting that knowledge out to your friends so its useful. I know people say talking is a free action but if your gonna look at a beast you've only ever read about and never seen, then tell everyone all the nuances of its strengths and weakness then this takes time. The brain works faster than the capacity to speak and formulate sentences. The limiting factor is disseminating information (which is what we make the rolls for)

You've got to remember this is something the person has never seen before and may have only read about once. Super genius doesn't mean photographic memory, it indicates great abilty to problem solve. The problem solving pathway usually goes - I've seen that thing in a book once, its a <insert name here> - what was it about their magical immunities? - oh that's right <insert appropriate power here>,

The key word is obscure . I ruled on the DC chance btw as it means you need some high ranks to get some of this knowledge.

Any way, don't want to get into an argument about a house rule my players and I agree upon. Appreciate your take on it though.
Cheers


Actually, smarter people as a rule learn faster. *shrugs*


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Crusader of Logic wrote:

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee attack. They miss, due to my AC being higher than anyone else.

Enemy tries to attack me with a ranged attack. They miss, due to my 50% miss chance vs ranged as long as I move at least 10 feet which I have absolutely no reason not to do.

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee or ranged attack (this includes targeted spells). I interrupt that as an Immediate action with a Greater Mirror Image. There are now up to 8 decoys, meaning the chance they can even try to hit the real me is 1:(number of images +1, max 9).

These aren't perfect, especially alone but together means unless they do nothing but focus on me for the last 1-3 rounds of their lives they can't really do much. This isn't even the complete list.

You are talking about the artificer class (which many consider to be broken or over-powered -especially if you are also a warforged), using splatbook spells and gear. Not a whole lot of that, if any, comes from the Beta or any Golarion book.

You have stated that you don't know much about the other casters, or haven't played the other casters much, but are an expert on Artificers.

How can you say that the Pathfinder casters outclass the non-casters when you are using non pathfinder splatbooks to get your class, gear and spells?

Please don't take this as an attack, I am honestly trying to understand how you have arrived at your conclusions, based on what I can see from my end.

Sovereign Court

Crusader of Logic wrote:

I assumed you were familiar with the logical fallacy known as a straw man already. Also, builds take time to write. I'll cover Artificers when I have time. The other CO people will handle Clerics, Druids, Wizards... or not, as they so choose. I'm best qualified to cover Artificers though.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Also, I have explained it before. It's simple really.

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee attack. They miss, due to my AC being higher than anyone else.

Enemy tries to attack me with a ranged attack. They miss, due to my 50% miss chance vs ranged as long as I move at least 10 feet which I have absolutely no reason not to do.

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee or ranged attack (this includes targeted spells). I interrupt that as an Immediate action with a Greater Mirror Image. There are now up to 8 decoys, meaning the chance they can even try to hit the real me is 1:(number of images +1, max 9).

These aren't perfect, especially alone but together means unless they do nothing but focus on me for the last 1-3 rounds of their lives they can't really do much. This isn't even the complete list.

Greater Mirror Image alone covers everything except AoEs, which I can Swift action heal away if I care, or just finish the fight then deal with the nickel and diming. Since nearly every AoE effect is energy based, multiple options exist such as the Energy Immunity armor/shield property, contingent or precast Energy Resistance/Protection, and so forth. I've just shrugged off the few AoE effects the enemy used, so this aspect isn't even necessary yet.

Also, all of this assumes they can even find me. HiPS from an item, stealth boosts from an item... In anywhere except broad daylight, the DC to find me if I use my new stealth approach is in the low 30s, at least. That assumes I roll a 1 on Stealth, and stand right in front of them. Distance penalties apply at -1 per 10 feet. I don't even have ranks in those skills. That automatically disqualifies anyone who doesn't have their...

It takes you how long to get these spells up? Either they are on 24/7 through some broken means or you spend several rounds of combat doing nothing but getting your buffs up. Meanwhile the monsters are eating your friends, closing on you, or both.


Mistwalker wrote:
Crusader of Logic wrote:

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee attack. They miss, due to my AC being higher than anyone else.

Enemy tries to attack me with a ranged attack. They miss, due to my 50% miss chance vs ranged as long as I move at least 10 feet which I have absolutely no reason not to do.

Enemy tries to attack me with a melee or ranged attack (this includes targeted spells). I interrupt that as an Immediate action with a Greater Mirror Image. There are now up to 8 decoys, meaning the chance they can even try to hit the real me is 1:(number of images +1, max 9).

These aren't perfect, especially alone but together means unless they do nothing but focus on me for the last 1-3 rounds of their lives they can't really do much. This isn't even the complete list.

You are talking about the artificer class (which many consider to be broken or over-powered -especially if you are also a warforged), using splatbook spells and gear. Not a whole lot of that, if any, comes from the Beta or any Golarion book.

You have stated that you don't know much about the other casters, or haven't played the other casters much, but are an expert on Artificers.

How can you say that the Pathfinder casters outclass the non-casters when you are using non pathfinder splatbooks to get your class, gear and spells?

Please don't take this as an attack, I am honestly trying to understand how you have arrived at your conclusions, based on what I can see from my end.

Artificers are tier 1. Same as clerics, druids, wizards, and archivists aka the Big Five. No point in being warforged myself, only reason for that would be to cast repair magics on myself. Except I can just get a wand for that, or use a 2nd level infusion to heal more than a repair spell anyways.

I have stated I don't know as much about the other casters. It means I know just about every artificer trick. I only know some of the cleric/druid/wizard tricks. Good enough to play? Certainly, I've played these before. Good enough to go into an in depth discussion covering every naunce? Maybe, maybe not. I wouldn't likely do it justice.

As for how I can say PF casters > PF non casters, it's very, very simple. I look at PF casters and I look at non PF casters. The PF version is as good or better than the 3.5 version. I then look at PF non casters and PF non casters. The PF non casters are the same or weaker than their 3.5 versions. The monsters which comprise the base line against all is tested are exactly the same.

In other words, a massive discrepancy in power is at best just as wide as before and at worst even wider. I do not need to touch my stove to know that my burner is hot. I can tell via the context clues.

By the way, non core gear helps the non casters a lot more than the casters.

Edit: It takes 1 Immediate action. Everything else is gear. No need to touch Persist spell. Though if I did, I'd become an invincible solo character.


Ok, first let's begin with a few important Artificer principles.

1: Remember that you are a crafter. Because of this, you only have to pay half market value for any item you have the feat for, and you get pretty much all the crafting feats at about the levels you would anyways. You also have to pay some XP. This seems like a bad thing, but can actually do you a favor. Craft enough so as to be one level behind your party. Due to the way XP mechanics work, you will get significantly more XP as a catch up mechanism. It also gives craft fuel. Note Paizo has actually boosted crafting greatly by removing the XP cost, turning it from less of an issue to nonexistent. So, in keeping with how they've done the other casters, it will be better than 3.5.

2: Remember that you are versatile. You can potentially cast anything in the game. Just be prepared. Naturally, Artificers make great Batmans.

3: Remember efficiency. Sure, your wealth goes further than anyone else's. Still, the more often you are unprepared the less efficient you become. For example if you know you'll need wand x Quickened, the cost is a 3rd level infusion and 1 charge a shot. If you don't, and find out the hard way you have to burn 5 charges per shot. Better than nothing, but still.

With that out of the way, spells are versatile. You don't need the exact tool for the job because you don't have hyperspecialized gadgets (non caster stuff) you have Swiss Army Knives. Any sort of miss chance or effective miss chance foils targeted attacks. It doesn't matter if the enemy is meleeing you, firing a death ray, or using a single target spell. Blur, Displacement, Mirror Image and anything that duplicates the effects thereof does very nicely. It's not perfect, but you can half it enough times it's close enough to 0 so to speak.

That only leaves non targeted effects. Namely, AoEs. Most AoEs are energy damage based. A Swift action heal will easily deal with the minor to moderate damage. Some sort of reactive or always on energy resistance/protection will block it outright. I just shrug it off, because it's minor to moderate damage and I saved for half anyways. They won't get the 5-6 shots more they need to kill me, so I don't care. Out of combat healing is a non issue for any competent party past about level 2, and even before then scrolls and partial charged wands are in your budget.

That just leaves the AoEs that do something nasty or otherwise undesirable as long as you are in the effect. These are actually the most dangerous so they cannot be ignored and include things such as Black Tentacles, Fog spells, Wall of Force + Cloudkill setups... They're all countered by the same thing though. Dimension Door.

In summary, as long as you always have 1-2 Greater Mirror Images (or other strong miss chance effect) and 1-2 Dimension Doors (or other short range teleport effect) you're covered against just about anything that matters. Add the anti energy measures if you care.

Builds follow, as this post will get very long.


I find presenting an example here at level 5 to be pointless on the grounds non casters are only just beginning to be outdated, aka they can still keep up and meaningfully deal with stuff. Also, the encounters are as a rule simpler which also helps them keep up. Non issue there.

By level 10, non casters are in the dust. At 15, they're beyond the horizon. Most everything here will work just as well for either version as it makes very little use of spells above 4th level. Just shrink the numbers down or something.

Level 15 Artificer:

First, feats. He gets 6 of them. 7 if human. He also gets 3 bonus feats that must be Metamagics or a feat from a short preset list and every item creation feat that Artificers get which is all of them except the ones in obscure backwater sourcebooks and Craft Construct I believe.

Extraordinary and Legendary Artisans are a given. These lower the GP and XP costs of crafting by 25%. In other words, a market price 1,000 gold item is 500 gold + 40 XP with normal crafting, 375 gold + 30 XP with these two feats. He can get this as a normal feat or his bonus feats since they're on the list.

Wand Mastery isn't quite as good, but is still rather nice. The main purpose of this is the CL + 2 bit which means you save more money.

You should probably have two metamagic feats to help out with offense. Quicken is a given for action economy purposes. Other one... several options are possible. I like Twin for the broad applications. It's up to you.

Extend Spell is also recommended. This can just come from a 3k Rod of Lesser Extend though. Up to you.

That is 5, possibly 6 feats out of a minimum of 9. So, our sample hypothetical Artificer can do whatever he wants with his remaining feats, be any race he wants, in essence this is more a template than a character. The level 10 version has 6 feats exactly if non human so it's still perfectly backwards compatible.

Our Artificer gets a Craft Reserve at every level. It doesn't roll over, but you can just use it before you level. Since this isn't some level 15 just spawning in the world, they've been able to use this to scale their equipment. For example, craft a cloak of resistance +1 at low levels, up to +2 a bit later, and so forth. They will still have to burn actual XP points. That's ok. The catch up mechanic helps a lot here, and even 1 level behind they can still easily be the equal of anyone except perhaps another well played Tier 1. Hell, I've taken a character with only 11 levels of Artificer (13 levels total) and put her in a game with level 15s and she still kept up just fine despite being 2 levels behind. So an any race Artificer 13 is certainly doable as it is as good or better and doesn't violate the multiclass caster rule. In other words, never multiclass casters.

Gear wise, standard WBL for a level 15 is 200k. Since our Artificer only has to pay 37.5% market price and can reduce or eliminate the effect of the XP cost by functioning just as well in a party anyways, his effective WBL is 533,333.333... (repeating decimal) gold. Level 10 gets just under a quarter that amount. Since costs for straight bonuses increase exponentially, just lower the numbers a bit. The enemies there also have lower numbers.

Staples:

Your armor is a Mithril Breastplate. Why? Because it's the best you can properly utilize barring high dex high wis Monk's Belt Bracers of Armor shenanigans. Get your Dex up to 20 via Gloves or something.

Con boosters are standard for everyone. Deal with it.

Getting an Int booster item for bonus infusions is probably worth while.

Wisdom boosters for the slight Will save boost are lower priority but still important.

Resistance to saves is crucial.

And here is where we encounter the only not perfectly straightforward bit. I am assuming MIC rules, which means the standard stats can be added to the appropriate items at normal cost. This rule is required for non casters to function. Here, it just makes the detailing more straightforward. After all, I could just use spells to do it as good or better and save cash. I am deliberately being inefficient to make a point. In other words, getting +2 Charisma on a cloak costs 4k regardless of whether it's just a plain old cloak otherwise or is a Cloak of Dashing Manliness (+12 to penis size).

With that out of the way... +6 stat items cost 13.5k. Covering Dex, Con, and Int leaves 159.5k left. Let's throw on +2 Wis since it's only 1.5k more. You could also boost Charisma for UMD purposes if you want to. Personally I don't think you'll be making too many really high UMD checks in combat, and out of combat you can just cast Skill Enhancement first.

Resistance +5 is 9.375k. Cool. We still have 148,625 gold.

Base armor is a Mithril Breastplate. Since you can craft these with a DC 20 check, and crafting is 1/3rd cost (which that -gold cost feat reduces by 25%, meaning it's now 1/4th cost) this is 1,050 gold. Let's put some spikes on it, and just round the cost up to 1.2k. Hitting a DC 20 craft check only requires a few ranks, MW tools, and taking 10 so non issue. 147,425 gold, for those of you keeping up at home. We also want this +1ed, so -375 more. 147,050.

Once it is +1ed, we can start adding special properties. There is no reason to ever boost the base beyond +1, as a simple Magic Vestment covers that nicely and lasts nearly all day (more than all day with Extend). We're going to come back to this in a moment.

You should also have a shield, because you lose nothing by getting it. The shield is a Heavy Shield. You can make it Mithril if you want, to get rid of the -1 armor check penalty. There is no spell failure. You can also make it Animated if you want, to keep both hands free so that you can have two wands on hand at any given time. For the sake of using the conditions least favorable to me let's assume it's +1, Animated, and Mithril. Basic shield is 255 gold. The properties on top of that are 3,375 gold, for a total of 3,630 gold. 143,420 gold.

Now, here is where we discuss special properties. There are 16 slots available - 9 on the armor, 7 on the shield. If you don't go with Animated that's two more on the shield, but there aren't a lot of great shield properties.

First, Heavy Fortification somewhere. Immunity to crits means you no longer care about the bad luck factor. It also shuts down an entire archetype as you can no longer be sneak attacked, death attacked, coup de graced... This is a +5 enhancement. With this, it doesn't matter how well the stealth types can sneak up on you... most of them are already negated.

If energy AoEs actually concern you, Energy Immunity is available for +2. You could take it twice, once for each. With that, twice a day you can render yourself immune to 1 element for 1 minute as an Immediate action so you can reactively use it when an energy attack actually scares you.

There's also other nice straight bonus effects such as the Blurring property, whatever. I'm just going to take Heavy Fort and leave it be for now. -13,125, bringing me down to 130,295 left. There's also a single straight cost effect I will take now. Quickness. +5 enhancement to land speed, costs 1,687.5 gold to craft. Let's just say 1,700 for ease of numbers. This will matter later.

129,125 gold left. Let's fill some item slots. I personally like the Circlet of Persuasion on my Artificer's head slot. While not the best choice, it works well from low levels on. MIC rules put the Int boost on there, no harm no foul. That's +3 to everything Cha based basically. Pretty nice. You could also take a Scout's Headband here, or whatever. It doesn't matter.

For the throat item I like a Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis. This gives you the Dark template. There are two versions of this item - one you have to turn on and can be used 10 minutes a day divided as you see fit but each use takes 1 minute. The second is always on. Since the first requires activation and we want to eliminate as many variable factors as possible, we will take the second so that for example... being surprised doesn't ruin it. The collar is 8,250 gold to craft. 120,875 remains. The Con and Wis bonuses end up on this item, again see MIC rules. I'd also recommend throwing +3 natural armor on it, because well... I did. Actually I only used +2, but hey. +3 is only 6,750, so why not. 114,125, or still over half WBL remains. By the way, the Dark template gives +10 unnamed to all forms of movement, darkvision 60, superior low light vision, cold resist 10, +8 Hide, +6 Move Silently and HiPS as long as you are not in normal or magical daylight. The cheap stealth is useful, provided you boost it a bit. More on that later.

Armor and shield slots are occupied obviously. I believe you can use a torso type item in addition to armor such as a vest, a shirt, etc. Only thing I can think of offhand I'd want here is the Blink Shirt to get a short range 1/day teleport on the cheap. I think it requires line of effect though, which means it can only escape some traps. I'm just going to skip this slot.

Shoulder slot is a cloak. Here's where the resistance bonus goes. If you want Charisma it goes here too. I didn't take it. It's up to you. If you're going to put something here other than standard stats I'd recommend a lesser cloak of displacement for a constant 20% miss chance against anything. Only 9k to craft. I didn't use it, because I was holding back. Let's say you do here though. 105,125 gold remains.

For the arms slot, a Wand Bracelet is nice. You can store up to 4 items weighing at most 3 pounds each in it if I'm quoting it right. Between the obvious combat utility applications, and the fact it's only 4.5k to craft, why not? Only other option I can see here is dependent on the DM declaring healing = repairing and thereby letting you have Armbands of Maximized Repairing that work exactly as Armbands of Maximized Healing do except on Repair spells. Obviously only matters if you're looking after party Warforged a lot, and Total Repair eliminates the need for it in any case. That brings the gold remaining down to 100,625. Just over half.

Hands... nothing special here. This is where the Dex booster goes though.

That just leaves a belt and two rings.

Well, the best belt hands down is a Belt of Battle. 4.5k for +2 unnamed to initiative and extra action charges? Yes please. Thing is though, it's not necessary. The only other thing that comes to mind to put here is a Healing Belt, or maybe a Belt of Many Pockets. One gives very minor, but replenishable out of combat healing. One holds stuff. Personally I just take a Haversack to hold stuff. This slot is actually quite irrelevant. I went the Healing Belt route on mine because I was holding back. Since I know someone will complain if I use the BoB, let's go with nothing at all. Well I have one other option here. Let's put it this way - it would give me +6 all saves, +1 AC, +7 initiative, and a 1/day attack reroll for about oh... 6,000 gold, and no drawback whatsoever. Let's not do that.

Now, the two rings. One of these is a Ring of Entropic Deflection. 20% miss chance vs ranged as long as you move at least 10 feet. Since you have nothing better to do with your Move action, why not? More to the point, it becomes 50% as long as you have any item enhancing your speed. You remember that Quickness property right? As long as you have that, keep moving and half of ranged attacks automatically miss. And since it's not Concealment or anything, the only way it can be avoided is via Seeking. That means an archer, and we're immune to Precision so we don't really care about archers. Best part? 3k. Hell, let's throw on a +3 deflection bonus to AC to make it 9,750. 90,875. For the other ring... I just put a flavor item on mine there (Ring of Sustenance). Only other mechanical option that comes to mind is a Ring of Counterspells (possibly Greater) or a Ring of Spell Battle to auto ID casting within 60 feet even if unaware of it. Let's go with that ring. It's 4.5k. 86,375.

Face slot. I forgot this one when I was going down the list in order. There are multiple good items here such as one that lets you 1/day negate daze, stun, or one of a few other things as an Immediate action. There's also one that gives you constant Mind Blank for 45k, but let's come back to that.

Now, you'll want a Haversack to store stuff in. It's only 750, which leaves 85,625. I'd also recommend making those armor spikes I mentioned +1 Warning and perhaps some +1 Eager shield spikes as well. This boosts your initiative. It helps a bit. That's 6k total, leaving 79,500 or so (MW spikes are less than 125, I rounded up again).

How are we doing so far?

Stats are going to be something like 8/14/14/16/12/14. Level up points... there's not a lot of great places to put them to be honest. Normally Int would be a no brainer, except what few save DC spells you have don't really matter. *shrugs* Let's just ignore this. With the stat boosting items that array becomes 8/20/20/22/14/14.

Saves? Let's assume he burned 2 levels crafting here:

Fortitude: +14 (4 base, 5 Con, 5 resistance).
Reflex: +14 (4 base, 5 Dex, 5 resistance).
Will: +15 (8 base, 2 Wis, 5 resistance).

Those of you paying attention will notice this was a little lower than the save array on mine. Well, being actually level 15, and having some Ref and Will boosting dips helps. If it really bothers you I recommend dipping one level of Cloistered Cleric. Aside from the obvious, it gives various Domains which can become Domain Devotions. Combine it with even a half decent Charisma (14 qualifies) and you can get something like +5 sacred or profane to AC for 1 minute 4 times a day. I'm not going to get into that though.

HP? Assuming the standard of average rolls I have 113, which isn't too shabby.

AC? 10 + 8 armor + 5 shield + 5 Dex + 3 deflection + 3 natural armor = AC 34, touch 18, flat footed 29. It's not great, but the amount of resources required to get AC to a 'great' level without getting into Polymorph and Persist Spell stuff is not worth it. Also, all melee attacks have a 20% miss chance and all ranged attacks have a 60% miss chance (as in entropic blocks half, and lesser displacement blocks 20% of half).

Still have 40% of the WBL left for everything else. The staples are pretty solid. What you get here depends on approach. A party friendly tactic would probably look something like a Staff of PW Stun to get everything not immune to stunning or mind affecting, then some cheap but good stuff to cover what your primary cannot. It might also look like a Rod of Many Wands holding a Wand of Dizziness, a Wand of Sickness, and a Wand of Weakness so that for a full round action and 3 low level wand charges you get the enemy slowed, taking -4 to all attacks, -2 to just about everything else with no saving throw as a full round action. Then Quickened Enervation him just to rub it in. Shortest duration effect there is 5 rounds - easily all combat. There are far too many options to detail every last one of them - suffice it to say you can easily get a Staff of PW Stun that uses 2 charges per casting for under 15k or 1 charge per casting for a little over 29k, the Rod + wands is well under 20k (Enervation not included), and you can still throw on some cheap stuff like CL 7 wands of Magic Missile or Lesser Orb for amusement purposes, Light of Lunia (does not require CL above 1) for giving those lacking a means of seeing in the dark to see (and the 2 free action 2d6 vs undead and evil outsider rays are nice, as is its ability to be precast so to speak), Ray of Stupidity to instant kill all animals and some other stuff, whatever you want. You can still probably get that Mind Blank item if you want. Armor and Shield Crystals are cheap, and can get you things like +5 saves vs inflict, energy drain and death, also 1/day reroll a failed save as an Immediate action or +5 AC vs ranged and Deflect Arrows. Whatever you want. By the way, a Staff of Heal that uses 2 charges per casting? About 7,750 at CL 11th. 25 Heal spells. That's a load off the Cleric.

I could keep going here but I think I've more than made my point an Artificer template (not even a full build, but a template with many options available for variance) is more than good enough to deal with anything, and all while still holding back, avoiding the best items, and not using any tricks such as chain binding for infinite Wishes, the infinite spell trigger charge trick, or the Godfiscer build. In fact this is a very party friendly character, more so if the DM allows the other party members to pay their own XP costs. Still, layered defenses means there is no need for a beatstick to protect the casters, as they can do it themselves (and he probably doesn't have the ability to protect them anyways). Questions?


Oops, forgot to throw on a +10 enhancement to Hide and Move Silently in there. That's 7.5k total, leaving 72k for other stuff. Still plenty. With that, I have the following stealth capabilities:

Hide: 5 Dex, 8 Dark template, 10 enhancement = +23, +22 after the armor check penalty.
Move Silently: 5 Dex, 6 Dark template, 10 enhancement = +21, +20 after the armor check penalty.

22/20 doesn't sound that great. But consider this:

1: Skill Enhancement can boost that via a +8 circumstance bonus if need be.

2: Invisibility is +20 Hide.

3: It goes further than you'd think in combat.

See, you take a -5 penalty to the perception if 'distracted'. Well, combat qualifies I'd think. Also, Listen can only give you a direction if you beat the check. You need check + 20 to find the square.

You also take -1 per 10 feet of distance, and I still get to add a D20 to that. Without any preparation, the distraction bit means the DC to find me is 1d20+27. Now, that's not great. Anyone with Spot as a class skill can probably manage to get it into the low 20s, and that becomes mid 20s if they're Wisdom based (Druid, anyone?). Which means they're able to keep up and have about a 50/50 chance before distance penalties. Anything else though can't find me, even if I'm right in front of them. If I wanted to make sure, getting about 5 more points would do it. I don't think it's necessary. Blindsense etc still auto beats stealth, but they still have a 50% miss chance. I can live with that. Not too shabby for someone completely lacking points in the stealth skills. If I wanted to make sure though, Darkstalker exists. That negates the I win buttons against stealth.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

After a quick read thru, a few things popped out at me, so, a few questions:

Where do I find Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis?
Circlet of Persuasion?
Warning and Eagle shield spikes?
The Animated armor enhancement?

Please note that the Belt of Battle adds a competence bonus to initiative, not unnamed.

Minor point, but your interpretation and mine on Extraordinary Artisan differ. It talks about creating magical items, and the prerequisite is an item creation feat, so, it is my interpretation that this feat only applies to the creation of magical items, not mundane ones.

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