What's The Problem With High Level Play?


General Discussion (Prerelease)

Liberty's Edge

This is the #1 most common issue I hear being raised against the Pathfinder RPG: that it does not solve the problem of high level play. I am uncertain what exactly the problem is. I don't generally do high level play. Most of my campaigns in 3.5 have stopped before level 10.

But nobody ever says what the problem is, just that 3.5 had it, and Pathfinder doesn't solve it.

Can anyone explain to me what the problem is exactly?


http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=238993

"1. Modified attack bonuses get so high that the d20 roll becomes irrelevant.

2. Appropriate ACs are hard to calculate because of the disparity in attack bonuses between the classes.

3. Saves vary so much at higher levels that some classes will automatically pass certain types of challenges while others will always fail, again because of the disparity between the good saves and bad saves of each class."

Among others. A quick, but stable, fix can be seen here:
Core 3.5 System Fix


Gailbraithe wrote:

This is the #1 most common issue I hear being raised against the Pathfinder RPG: that it does not solve the problem of high level play. I am uncertain what exactly the problem is. I don't generally do high level play. Most of my campaigns in 3.5 have stopped before level 10.

But nobody ever says what the problem is, just that 3.5 had it, and Pathfinder doesn't solve it.

Can anyone explain to me what the problem is exactly?

As some have said on the other board, high level play is very hit or miss. When I have designed convention games for high-level play, I have found that they need a couple of playtest run-throughs before you can balance encounters well. In a campaign, you don't have that luxury.

The Exchange

Unpredictable and sluggish (at times). Encounters are pretty accurate to run at lower level but at High Level PC's have a lot of resources (Magic Items) at their disposal. High Level encounters in general are just not commonly run and therefore are less understood. There are less adventures for learning how to build high level encounters, and High Level encounters require a steeping complexity curve for Dungeon Masters to create. Overall, I think a good place to start is to make creating 18th level encounters as easy as creating 1st level encounters. As a working person with children, I think that is a reasonable expectation. And yeah, I challenge a genius to make it happen.

Cheers,
Zuxius

Scarab Sages

neceros wrote:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?t=238993

"1. Modified attack bonuses get so high that the d20 roll becomes irrelevant.

2. Appropriate ACs are hard to calculate because of the disparity in attack bonuses between the classes.

3. Saves vary so much at higher levels that some classes will automatically pass certain types of challenges while others will always fail, again because of the disparity between the good saves and bad saves of each class."

Among others. A quick, but stable, fix can be seen here:
Core 3.5 System Fix

From our group's experience with play after 15th level, you nailed it.

The game has an almost exponential feel to damage and effects without the same ramp-up in protection.

The ability for both PCs and NPCs/Monsters to create "save or die" effects, whether they be by spells or damage. Can turn the tide of battle so quick as to make the game either too deadly or too easy.

Liberty's Edge

thanks, i myself have never go up either as player or gm over level 10, but just looking at themonsters the saving throes and babs i can see the point

AC is not at the level with the base attack bonus, and spells DC need a lot of boost from feats to not be passed easily by saving throws or boost in penetration to pass over magic resistances...

and weapons uisually doesn't do more damage, soin the end yes it looks and ehars lots more cumbersome and boring.

i would see what canbe worked of the threads that were put in here, sounds like fun,...

but i for one i would prefer the players NOR to rely on their character dressed from head to toe with magical items to be able to achieve something at high levels... it ebcomes superfluos and riddicule that every sentien NPC is full of magic items that the characters would only see as "yeah i have already two, anyone want it?"

the abuse of magic items was one of the things i gahted from 3.5, making success on item dependand made it boring for me... and forced my character to dress in magic regalia

at least my DM let us level up the weapons and armor with certain rules wefound in dragon magazine... my weapons and armor grew in level with me... and thatwas more fun thatn say... making my own magic weapon with simplistic mechanics or going to the localmagical store to dress myself up.


I agree with the other posters, but I would add planning prep spells and buff calculations, along with immunities.

The combination of save or die spells and immunities really throw a wrench in how combat works. Consider fighting a banshee with and without death ward, for one thing. Immunities make dangerous monsters much less dangerous. Characters casting save or die spells against big monsters mean that they're either useless or they make everyone else useless, depending on the monster's save.

High-level buffs and immunities from spells mean that the difference between a prepped party and an unprepped party is pretty extreme. This makes the scry+teleport option that much worse, since the teleporters have a chance to prepare.

From what I've seen and heard, it's much worse for a high-level character to lose their stuff than to die. That says something.

I think Pathfinder's moving in the right direction, but getting high-level play is hard and doesn't help with low-level play. It might be worth a separate book.

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