Looks like I found the right forum for this.
I haven't yet picked up the Campaign Guide (it is on the list for next month).
But from what I have heard, the description of the muzzle-loading flintlock gives it a one-round reload rate? And the reload rate for a percussion cap firearm is a "move action".
Can someone please verify this?
Thanks. I want to have the facts straight before I set up the hue and cry!
CJ
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"Capacity: This lists the number of shots the weapon can hold. You may fire a weapon as many times in a round as you have attacks, up to this number. Reloading a flintlock firearm (blunderbuss and musket) requires 1 round. Reloading a percussion cap firearm (pistol, revolver, rifle, scattergun) requires 1 move action per shot."
So you were essentially right, only the percussion cap firearms require 1 move action per shot reloaded as opposed to having all their shots reloaded in a single move action.
Edit: To answer an earlier question, the only mentions I can find of gunpowder in the Campaign Setting are in Alkenstar's entry on page 58, page 201 in the timeline, page 212 in the firearms misfire rules, and on page 237 in the technology section. Cost is given in none of these locations. I'd assume that since one of the firearm misfire types involves gunpowder, that the necessary powder is just assumed to come with the cost of ammunition for the weapon. The alchemy from the 2nd post I can confirm as not being in the Campaign Setting.
You have to make your own gunpowder: that way the chance of your gun exploding in your face is a measure of your own skill...
Craft(Alchemy) GUNPOWDER DC18
Charcoal ?
Saltpetre ?
Sulphur ?
IIRC, it's 75% saltpeter, 15% sulphur, 10% charcoal (all finely powdered). Then, you need to moisten the mixture, work into a dough, and let dry before grinding to a coarse powder.
The Campaign guide is missing something for the firearms.
How do you get Gunpowder for Flintlock weapons and how much does it cost?
Right now, basic information can be found in the 3.5 DMG on pg. 145 on Table 5-4: Renaissance Weapons.
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There's no costs for ammunition either.
In general I'm very disappointed with the firearms in the campaign setting, they made them so weak that they're utterly pointless. I'll stick to using the d20 Past stats and just use the Campaign Setting's prices.
Mike McArtor wanted to make them stronger, James Jacobs vetoed it, thus we get the relatively useless ones we have in the CS.
Add an extra die of damage to each one, if you ask me (1d8 becoming 2d8, 2d6 becoming 3d6, etc.) and definitely use the exploding dice rules.
And AFAIK the exotic and renaissance weapons are going to be in the final PfRPG, just not the Beta.
Useless?
Yet another "if my toy isn't the obvious choice I don't like it" gamer.
Enjoy your tiered equipment.
...Reloading a flintlock firearm (blunderbuss and musket) requires 1 round. Reloading a percussion cap firearm (pistol, revolver, rifle, scattergun) requires 1 move action per shot."
So you were essentially right, only the percussion cap firearms require 1 move action per shot reloaded as opposed to having all their shots reloaded in a single move action.
So...the reload rates featured are more than a bit absurd.
Historically, a muzzleloading flintlock musket could maybe be fired once every twenty seconds. This was in the hands of elite troops who had years of training and experience. Traditionally, muskets were not fired at a specific target rather than at a mass of troops/formation.
Rifled muskets were vastly more accurate -- but suffered in the reload time.
Percussion cap replacement is also terribly time-consuming. Speedloading a cap'n-ball revolver usually consisted of replacing the entire cylinder at one go with a pre-loaded one.
My suggestions would be a four-round reload rate for muzzleloading flintlock muskets. That is four full-round actions.
Replacing a cap'n-ball revolver cylinder should be a full-round action. Reloading a cylinder requires around 10 minutes of activity.
Should these be incorporated into the PFRPG rules -- these are my suggestions.
Damage dice are largely arbitrary in 3e+. I don't have a strong opinion on this. But damage dealt should be commensurate with the time it takes to reload.
CJ
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Useless?
Yet another "if my toy isn't the obvious choice I don't like it" gamer.
Enjoy your tiered equipment.
There's a point where usefulness has to outweigh flavor, especially in the deadly Paizo adventures.
If you're going to have them cost more than a composite longbow (str+3) they shouldn't be weaker than them AND require a special exotic weapons proficiency.
Either up the damage or add a "If hit by a gun the target must make a DC 10 + damage dealt will save or be shaken for 1d4 rounds". That was the guns biggest advantage historically when they started replacing bows, their sheer intimidation factor.
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Useless?
Yet another "if my toy isn't the obvious choice I don't like it" gamer.
Enjoy your tiered equipment.
There's a point where usefulness has to outweigh flavor, especially in the deadly Paizo adventures.
If you're going to have them cost more than a composite longbow (str+3) they shouldn't be weaker than them AND require a special exotic weapons proficiency.
Either up the damage or add a "If hit by a gun the target must make a DC 10 + damage dealt will save or be shaken for 1d4 rounds". That was the guns biggest advantage historically when they started replacing bows, their sheer intimidation factor.
I REALLY like the idea of leaving the target shaken. But I also like that the price makes them prohibitive to players unwilling to pay gold and a feat for flavor, thus keeping firearms VERY rare in a sword and armor world.
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The damage for these is a bit on the light side, but not far off from what we used for our rules in our pirate campaign. But we added a few quirks...
If you roll a natural 1. Take a -4 to hit and roll again. This signifies a hang fire. If your second roll hits, you score a hit but your place in initiative order drops to the end for the rest of the encounter. If you miss the gun is fouled and must be unloaded (2 full round actions) and reloaded. If you roll a 1 on the second roll. Gun explodes. You take 2x damage dice of the weapon.
If you roll the highest damage possible on the die roll it again and add the results. Keep rolling until you don't get the highest value of the die. All dice rolled are doubled if you confirm a crit. Note: damage rerolls not used for scatterguns.
Guns are lethal.
GM's who want to add 18th century firearms to their campaign might want to check out the Northern Crown rules. Their firearms rules are OGL and pretty reflective of quasi-history.
CJ
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An idea struck me - since they're all made in Alkenstar, located in the inherently antimagical Mana Wastes, what if firearms themselves couldn't be enchanted? No +1 blunderbusses, no +3 holy rifles, no +5 flaming frost shocking unholy revolvers, none of it. But we increase the damage dice all by 1 (1d8 to 2d8, 2d6 to 3d6, etc.)?
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An idea struck me - since they're all made in Alkenstar, located in the inherently antimagical Mana Wastes, what if firearms themselves couldn't be enchanted? No +1 blunderbusses, no +3 holy rifles, no +5 flaming frost shocking unholy revolvers, none of it. But we increase the damage dice all by 1 (1d8 to 2d8, 2d6 to 3d6, etc.)?
I think that it's totally appropriate that firearms CANNOT be enchanted. Perhaps ENHANCEMENTS can be made, for a hefty fee, that increase accuracy, damage, conceal ability, FORT v. misfire, hardness+HP...each enhancement can cost 1000g. And any given firearm may only have, say...2 enhancements on handguns/carbines, and 3 on rifles/scatterguns.
But what about magical ammunition, if/when there is a base price for that?
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But what about magical ammunition, if/when there is a base price for that?
I want to say it's workable, but that it should be really expensive. I'm catching myself thinking of them like low-grade caster shells from Outlaw Star(bullets that are technically magic spells you shoot from a gun). Like say the enchantment on ammo is complex because you don't want it going off in the gun as it fires, only when it hits its target.
That idea might have too much crossover with wandrifles though. I need to look those up again.
Also, I really do like the "shaken" idea applied to firearms.
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Blunderbuss is a one handed "shotgun" about the length of a carbine. Fires lead shot and does 2d6.
Muskets are smooth bored and fire a large caliber round (50 caliber ball in real life) and does 1d8. This, I think is too low. I would place it at 2d6. (BTW real muskets could be either a single round or could be shot or even a combination of a smaller caliber with some shot)
Pistol is a single shot rifle bored small pistol, about like a Derringer, which does 1d6.
Revolver is a 5 chamber gun holding a bullet and a wad of gunpowder and does 1d6 damage.
Rifle is a high powered low caliber long range gun that does 1d8 damage.
Scattergun is a shotgun that does 3d6 damage.
As far as damage goes, it does not seem out of line with the rest of the weapons in D&D. Consider a longsword can easily chop off limbs, decapitate in a single stroke, disembowel someone easily and only does 1d8 damage. So the damage from a firearm is about right.
Reload times are not outrageous. The book does not say whether the firearms are muzzleloaders or breechloaders. Flintlocks could be muzzleloading or breech-loading, and could be smooth bored or rifled. The English used a cartridge for their flintlocks. Tear open the paper and place a bit of powder in the flashpan, the rest into the muzzle followed by the ball (paper and all), tapped down then fired. An expert (say someone with an Exotic Weapon proficiency) could do this quite quickly, in about 15 seconds. For game balance a full round is therefore not really that outrageous.
Revolvers are listed as percussion cap. Assuming old fashioned styles a rod is pressed to eject each spent round, reloaded and the cap placed. Three seconds per chamber is not outrageous for someone trained in the weapon (in this case 3 full rounds). An entire cylinder in a cap and ball revolver can be replaced in seconds. And technically a modern cartridge is a percussion cap round- though the book specifically mentions ball and wad of powder, which would indicate an old fashioned load..
The fastest shooter (so far) can shoot 6 rounds, reload and fire 6 shots in 2.99 seconds.
Here are some videos of fast shooters... (yes these are modern guns but still it should give you an idea of what can be done)
Fastest gun draw ever
Fastest gun in the west
World's fastest handgun shooter
Rapid-Fire Shotgun--World's Fastest
Fast reloading
Now don't forget, for damage, there are optional rules for exploding d6s (or d8s I suppose) roll a 6 on a d6 roll again and add them. Roll another 6 roll again and add them. Potentially a 1d6 revolver can do 20 points if you are lucky.
Also, it was mentioned that muskets were not used for single target shooting but mass shooting. It is mentioned in the book that muskets are not that accurate (though there are no rules for less accuracy), though the early rifles were. American frontiersmen were known for their amazing accuracy and they used rifles during the Revolution when the English were still using muskets. But one should also remember that flintlock muskets were also used in hunting, which does require some degree of accuracy and skill.
Overall, I like the presentation of firearms. Personally I would not have introduced percussion cap firearms, as they were invented in the 19th century and quickly followed by the modern cartridge. The flintlock was invented in 1616 and remained popular for more than two centuries. Rifleing was invented around 1500, before the flintlock.
My only complaint is range. Smooth bore muskets had an effective range of about 300 feet and rifled flintlocks had ranges about 900 feet! That is why firearms replaced bows.
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But what about magical ammunition, if/when there is a base price for that?I want to say it's workable, but that it should be really expensive. I'm catching myself thinking of them like low-grade caster shells from Outlaw Star(bullets that are technically magic spells you shoot from a gun). Like say the enchantment on ammo is complex because you don't want it going off in the gun as it fires, only when it hits its target.
That idea might have too much crossover with wandrifles though. I need to look those up again.
Also, I really do like the "shaken" idea applied to firearms.
The only reason I can see for not having enchanted bullets is the extreme forces they experience during firing. Other than that they are no different than a bullet for a sling or an arrow.
But to be fair, I would say that if magic is unable to cope with those forces, it cannot defend against it either, and all enchants and defensive spells are not applied against a bullet. In other words, +3 armor loses its +3, spells that add AC or protect vs projectiles are useless against bullets. Spells that enhance Reflexes or Dexterity are too slow to protect against the fast moving bullet.
Base price for a magic bullet is just like the base price for a magic arrow or magic sling bullet. What difference does it make that the bullet falls into the muzzle of a gun, vs in a sling or for a bow?
And if a sling or bow can be enchanted why can't a gun?
I'm not a fan of firearms in D&D, but I think the Iron Kingdoms setting has some pretty good rules for firearms. They weren't the obvious weapon of choice, but they weren't bad either. I'd like to see Pathfinder go a similar route.
[Edit] Btw, I haven't read the campaign setting yet, so I'm not sure what the current rules are for firearms.
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Base price for a magic bullet is just like the base price for a magic arrow or magic sling bullet. What difference does it make that the bullet falls into the muzzle of a gun, vs in a sling or for a bow?And if a sling or bow can be enchanted why can't a gun?
Should have clarified: the idea I was playing around with was more along the lines of having a spell/effect "on hold" until the bullet hit its target. Like say a stored fireball that detonates on impact. In-game it gives a justification for making the enchantments expensive enough to explain why they aren't more widespread(beyond the obvious issue of supply) and could lead to possible mishaps with the ammunition(fireball bullet goes off after two kinetic impacts of enough power, if it's already had one blow hard enough dealt to it, it could go off in the gun). It's just something my head wandered into idly, thinking of ways to complicate players' lives. Because my heart is full of spite and all.
As for the guns themselves being enchantproof, that was just theorizing based on them being made in magic-dead Alkenstar. Of course I suppose we could apply that to anything produced in Alkenstar. Their swords probably aren't very popular among adventurers in that case.
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90% of guns produced in ALkenster remain there, meaning they are very rare outside that land. I don't think they are the ONLY producers of guns, just the most common, and they don't produce much.
Any gun removed could be enchanted, but again this would be exceedingly rare. But it could be fun to introduce a Pistol Mage from the Iron Kingdoms setting as a BBEG for the PCs to fight. That would get their attention!
Creative Director
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This thread's a great example of why I am hesitant to include firearms in Pathfinder. We threw them into the hardcover because we knew that they were a popular aspect of the game with a certain element of reader, but at the same point they're like elf ears or ships; they're an element whose supporters are often VERY knowledgeable and demand accuracy in the product. It also makes it relatively easy for us to make errors that get caught by more knowledgeable readers. Now, there's nothing wrong with that except that it engenders a situation where anything but pages and pages of detail can't help but be a disappointment, which is unfortunate.
I wasn't willing to spend more wordcount on firearms than what we did in the hardcover since they're SUCH a marginal part of the world, because the number of readers who aren't interested in firearms in their fantasy RPGs vastly outnumbers those who are... but at the same time I wanted to have them in there enough to give readers who DO enjoy this element something to go off of. I certainly didn't want to make the guns so much better than bows and crossbows and ranged magic that they were the obvious choice for ranged weapons in the game, because that's not the kind of world I'm interested in publishing.
Chances of us expanding the firearms rules in Golarion anytime soon are VERY slim. Feel free to utilize house rules for things like gunpowder, or to use different firearm rules from other d20 games to augment or replace the rules we've got in the Pathfinder Campaign Setting, though, and if you DO come up with house rules, these messageborads are a GREAT place to post them.
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Creative Director
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Either up the damage or add a "If hit by a gun the target must make a DC 10 + damage dealt will save or be shaken for 1d4 rounds". That was the guns biggest advantage historically when they started replacing bows, their sheer intimidation factor.
You could certainly add a "shaken" effect... but remember; Golarion isn't modeling history. Why should being shot by a gun make something shaken if that creature lives in a world where spells like magic missile, burning hands, acid arrow, and sound burst exist?
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I'm sorry James, I as trying to show how well you actually did do with the rules. I guess I did not do that well enough. It was late when I was writing it.
In my opinion the rules are spot on and close enough with rules balance that I have no issues with them. Honestly I think the firearms rules are far less controversial than say changes in Power Attack or a dozen of other changes.
A house rule people can use in case they do not like the "speed" of reloading:
Ammunition for both flintlock and percussion cap come in prepackaged paper cartridge rounds. A small section of the cartridge contains powder for the flashpan for flintlocks. Simply open that section and put the powder in. Drop the cartridge down the muzzle and tap into place and then fire.
For a percussion cap, assume it is a paper cartridge with an attached cap. Remove the cap and drop the cartridge into the cylinder, place the cap on the nipple and you are ready to fire.
The paper cartridge is composed of a highly flamable paper that aids in the ignition proces of the powder.
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There's no costs for ammunition either.
In general I'm very disappointed with the firearms in the campaign setting, they made them so weak that they're utterly pointless. I'll stick to using the d20 Past stats and just use the Campaign Setting's prices.
Mike McArtor wanted to make them stronger, James Jacobs vetoed it, thus we get the relatively useless ones we have in the CS.
Add an extra die of damage to each one, if you ask me (1d8 becoming 2d8, 2d6 becoming 3d6, etc.) and definitely use the exploding dice rules.
And AFAIK the exotic and renaissance weapons are going to be in the final PfRPG, just not the Beta.
then again, there are some vocal advocates of "no firearms in my D&D" . However, the Golarion setting has some over-the-top locales, like Geb and Nex, and Numeria.
I like the extra dice and exploding results, but might use Iron Kingdoms rules. I'm just glad to know that there ARE guns in Golarion!
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IIRC, Paizo had stated that it would have information for exotic weapons, i.e., oriental adventures, and futuristic weapons, i.e., firearms inside the PFRPG. I, too, noticed this missing.I was under the impression this was to be in the Pathfinder RPG, not the Beta. Could be wrong though.
RELOAD SPEED: Weapon Experience and Dexterity bonus vary the reload speed or reload accuracy.
If only they had gone with a Kolben for Druids and Wizards with a heat metal spell...oh well.
RULES CHANGE: PC Doesnt Get overall Experience, They pick up Experience in a weapon or skill...Tiers taken to their ultimate conclusion.
DM: "Jando the sharpshooter misses the gargantuan dragon..."
PLAYER: "What? How the frak could he miss something occupying eighty percent of his sight? Are you out of your frakin mind? Whats wrong with you? He has sixty thousand experience points with Pistols. I dont believe this!"
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Creative Director
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IIRC, Paizo had stated that it would have information for exotic weapons, i.e., oriental adventures, and futuristic weapons, i.e., firearms inside the PFRPG. I, too, noticed this missing.I was under the impression this was to be in the Pathfinder RPG, not the Beta. Could be wrong though.
There probably won't be anything about firearms at all in the Pathfinder RPG, actually. The few pages in the hardcover Campaign Setting is probably going to be it for some time to come.
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There probably won't be anything about firearms at all in the Pathfinder RPG, actually. The few pages in the hardcover Campaign Setting is probably going to be it for some time to come.IIRC, Paizo had stated that it would have information for exotic weapons, i.e., oriental adventures, and futuristic weapons, i.e., firearms inside the PFRPG. I, too, noticed this missing.I was under the impression this was to be in the Pathfinder RPG, not the Beta. Could be wrong though.
Thanks James,
I like squirreling them away in a small part of the world, that way the GM who hates guns in his campaign can just comment that out and move on. What is there is more than enough to bring them into play and I doubt if you put in more it would make any but a small % of the audience happy anyway, if this thread is any indication.
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There probably won't be anything about firearms at all in the Pathfinder RPG, actually. The few pages in the hardcover Campaign Setting is probably going to be it for some time to come.IIRC, Paizo had stated that it would have information for exotic weapons, i.e., oriental adventures, and futuristic weapons, i.e., firearms inside the PFRPG. I, too, noticed this missing.I was under the impression this was to be in the Pathfinder RPG, not the Beta. Could be wrong though.
Personally, I am very glad to hear that...the tiniest taste of that spice goes a VERY long way in my Fantasy RPG stew. Likely since I usually have one or more casters in a group, most of the people I play with will avoid the Mana Wastes anyway, I hope.
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There probably won't be anything about firearms at all in the Pathfinder RPG, actually. The few pages in the hardcover Campaign Setting is probably going to be it for some time to come.IIRC, Paizo had stated that it would have information for exotic weapons, i.e., oriental adventures, and futuristic weapons, i.e., firearms inside the PFRPG. I, too, noticed this missing.I was under the impression this was to be in the Pathfinder RPG, not the Beta. Could be wrong though.
That's fine. If I ever need firearms, I have my 3.5 DMG, the Dragon with Firearms in it, and of course D20 Modern.