Except, I am sort of a traditionalist, and I like to actuall HOLD the book
I am reading. And if they just released free pdf, how long do you think paizo would last?
My point exactly.
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Yes, but the task at hand is CRAFT (whatever). However, I do agree that appraise (everything) is unrealistic. The jeweler for instance, specializes in identifying jewelery. It makes sense for craft to be more specialized, but appraise more general (but still broken down into reasonable catergories).I see what you mean. Possibly since the skills are being broken down to a finite 5 skills, it might simply make sense to just cut the "craft" word off of the front so that it will make more sense. Possibly simply reserving that word for the "craft" feats.
For instance, people who know a bit about armor and weapons and how to appraise them and possibly make low end simple weapons if they tried would have a relatively low skill rank in Arms and Armor and those who knew how to craft uncommon, rare and exotic arms and armor would would have a high rank in the skill.
I think there is a point here that needs to be restated.
With this skill, you can evaluate the value of any object, picking out priceless treasures from worthless junk. If you are trained in this skill, you can use it in conjunction with detect magic to ascertain the properties of a magic item.
While I think that your rank in craft (if you have one) for the object in question should modify this roll, the point should be made this skill determines the VALUE not the quality. Remember some people paid ridiculous coin for Beanie Babies at one point. This skill also includes knowing the market and estimating what the sale value is. Not every sword maker can tell what the thousand year old magic elven blade is worth in the current market. He usually has enough trouble pricing his own goods. Just sayin ;)
"Here's how I would have written the beta test given the time and more importantly the talent"
Thanks for your input! You've exemplified "niggles" to the finest detail.
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My niggle is that I spent $20+ on a softcover beta, that basicly is saying"hey, we want you to pay us to test this system for us, and maybe over the next year we may change it, and then you can pay us 39.99 for the gold version." Then what, if I want to see a Pathfinder Psionic version, I am gonna have to pay $20+ for a beta, than buy a gold version? If thats the case, I should just stick with WOTC, at least with them I know what I am getting myself into.
for one, those wishing to be involved with the playtesting and feedback but don't want to spend money to do so can downloand the PDF of the alphas and beta for free. (buying the softcover is just for true enthusiasts)
well the question that I would ask then is: how much say-so and input did you give into the WotC new 4E? How much did they ask for your opinions?
You may know what you have with WotC - but you dont know what you're getting - you dont know whats next on the agenda that they're changing. With the PF products you have the chance to be involved from the ground floor and make suggestions and opinions that could be incorporated - sure not every suggestion you may have - but even one is more than I'm sure any of us had in directly shaping what WotC put out.
Me personally, I love the thought that we as consumers are directly affecting the direction of the products and it is being catered to 'us'.
For me, I bought the softcover Beta for 22 bucks as it will be my main book of use from now till next August - I see that as worth 22 bucks for a whole year's use. Next August I'll drop down the 50 bucks which is both the DMG and PHB in one book - and thats a good deal - especially since I expect to have many years of use out of that one book for that price.
Robert
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This skill also includes knowing the market and estimating what the sale value is. Not every sword maker can tell what the thousand year old magic elven blade is worth in the current market. He usually has enough trouble pricing his own goods. Just sayin ;)
Then he is not a very good sword maker. A true master would know what the quality craftsmanship is.
In game play, identifying and appraising items is a very important aspect to playing D&D. Mechanically, you want exactly what? Only an elven wizard can identify a thousand year old magic elven blade's "current market value"? First of all D&D does not use a "current market value" system, it has a static value system. I am very happy with getting rid of appraise and passing it on to the 5 proposed item/craft skills (finery, arms and armor, building, devices, alchemy).
And if they just released free pdf, how long do you think paizo would last?It's free because it's just a playtest. The final version PDF won't be free.
I see what you're getting at. I think they will have all of their major changes planned for the final release. Then use a full 12 months to play-test the major changes discussed with the tweeks in the Beta release.
They don't want people using the free Beta PDF with the Final changes written in the margins.
Not saying people are dishonorable, but hearing stories of pirated 4th Edition PDFs, I can see why Paizo MAY want a totally 'new' final release, not a final version with Beta and a few minor changes.
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This skill also includes knowing the market and estimating what the sale value is. Not every sword maker can tell what the thousand year old magic elven blade is worth in the current market. He usually has enough trouble pricing his own goods. Just sayin ;)Then he is not a very good sword maker. A true master would know what the quality craftsmanship is.
In game play, identifying and appraising items is a very important aspect to playing D&D. Mechanically, you want exactly what? Only an elven wizard can identify a thousand year old magic elven blade's "current market value"? First of all D&D does not use a "current market value" system, it has a static value system. I am very happy with getting rid of appraise and passing it on to the 5 proposed item/craft skills (finery, arms and armor, building, devices, alchemy).
And yet your master sword maker has no basis by your own rule with which to estimate the value of a magic sword not being a spellcaster with craft magic weapon.
I have a friend who is a gunsmith. He is very skilled at his craft. If you hand him a 18th century flintlock pistol he might be able to tall you how good a gun it is but not that it is worth $50,000 in the collector's market because he doesn't deal antique guns, he modifies and repairs them.
Thousand year old magic swords are not commodities. They are singular items that have value not just based on craftsmanship but also their magical properties and history. There should never be a standard valuation on singular items. The cost of a unique item is "what the market will bear." Appraise is the skill of estimating that value.
Actually, I think I was swept into the hysteria of it, to be totally honest with you. My 2 gaming groups went into 2 diretions, 4ed and now Pathfinder. I, like alot of ppl, pre ordered both. Now looking back, I wish I had not. I cannot blame anyone but myself, but I can honestly say I was not overly impressed with the "fixes" in this 3.68 version, and am now starting to lean a bit toward a housebrew of sorts, though I wish I wouln not have to because of the amount of rules lawyers who love to quote in the middle of a game:)
Anyway, this was a post on niggles, and was just expressing mine:)
Good points!
I'm in kind of in the opposite position: I'm very enthusiastic about Pathfinder after seeing the Beta, and yet I have chosen not to buy it yet (since I'll probably buy the finished product anyways).
You can mail your copy of the Beta to me, if you're just going to throw it out anyways.... :)
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Thousand year old magic swords are not commodities. They are singular items that have value not just based on craftsmanship but also their magical properties and history. There should never be a standard valuation on singular items. The cost of a unique item is "what the market will bear." Appraise is the skill of estimating that value.
I agree completely with this mentality. I dont believe just because you can appraise something you know how to build it or vice - versus. I can certainly see room for arguing for synergy. Someone who builds cars AND studies their values would be better at judging the worth for instance.
we recently had our house appraised for re-financing. I doubt very much the two people that came to our home have the slightest clue how to actually build one. They did not look like carpenters at all - more like IRS agents.
Robert
Hogarth,
If you truly want my copy, you have to sit through at least 3 game sessions with my crew, and then you can have it:)
I live in FL btw
Hogarth,
If you truly want my copy, you have to sit through at least 3 game sessions with my crew, and then you can have it:)
I live in FL btw
I better start hitch-hiking now, then!
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Thousand year old magic swords are not commodities. They are singular items that have value not just based on craftsmanship but also their magical properties and history. There should never be a standard valuation on singular items. The cost of a unique item is "what the market will bear." Appraise is the skill of estimating that value.
I agree completely with this mentality. I dont believe just because you can appraise something you know how to build it or vice - versus. I can certainly see room for arguing for synergy. Someone who builds cars AND studies their values would be better at judging the worth for instance.
we recently had our house appraised for re-financing. I doubt very much the two people that came to our home have the slightest clue how to actually build one. They did not look like carpenters at all - more like IRS agents.
Ok, let me back up and re-explain the points and where this came about. Then we can have a full interpretation on what is being attempted to be done with the skill condensation.
Here are a list of the skills. They take the places of appraise, craft (weapons), craft (armor), craft (bowyer fletcher), craft (alchemy), craft (poisonmaking), craft (traps), craft (x - all other mundane crafts), forgery, and I will throw in Arcana too because I think that one is important.
Alchemy (same + poisonmaking)
Arms and Armor (armorer, weaponsmith, and bowyer)
Building (building structures, siege engines etc.)
Devices (traps, locks, clockworks etc.)
Finery (art, art objects, gems, wands, forgery, and other forms of finery)
Arcana (magic items)
Then a chart similar to this would be important.
identify value of common/simple item 10
identify value of uncommon/martial item 15
identify value of rare/exotic item 20
identify value of unique item 25+
identify magic +5
craft common/simple item 15
craft uncommon/martial item 20
craft rare/exotic item 25
craft unique item 30+
craft masterwork +5
A couple of things on where exactly I want this systems to be.
Finery in this system is almost synonymous with what the appraise skill did.
If it is an ancient art piece it would fall under finery, if it an ancient weapon I can see it falling under finery or weapon, if it is an ancient magical weapon I can see it falling under arcana, finery, or weapon. The broader the skills are represented the better it is for the game. The fighter can then identify magical weapons and the wizard with arcana and the rogue with finery.
Ok, so why tie the crafting into this system too? Some character get only two skill points. The current system has characters spending skill points on very specific craft skills. It also, gives no correlation on being a master crafter and knowing what the general values are of items they may craft. So this system streamlines the skill and makes those who invest heavily in the skill able to be competent at both assessing items and designing them.
I would want players to be able to appraise things fairly easily so that players could dabble in a couple item skills and be competent in most cases. I would want the player who wants to be a crafter in an area to also be good at evaluating items as well.
Fighter 12
INT 10
24 skill points
Player wants him to be able to craft weapons and armor:
current system
takes craft (weapons) 12 ranks, he would also have to take appraise so that he can determine the value of weapons so there is another 12 points. As a side bonus he can now identify the value of everything now do to appraise's appraise (everything) nature. But also note the character cannot create armor. You might say but that is a lame character and that no one would do that. And you would be right.
This system
takes arms and armor 12 ranks and has 12 ranks left to play with. A much better system that is easier on skill points and plays to the theme the player was looking for.
Bottom line: the system should provide players with a reason to have their allotted resources (skill points) be useful enough to allow them to develop a theme and still be competent in other areas. The current craft system does not accomplish that objective.
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Ok, let me back up and re-explain the points and where this came about. Then we can have a full interpretation on what is being attempted to be done with the skill condensation.Here are a list of the skills. They take the places of appraise, craft (weapons), craft (armor), craft (bowyer fletcher), craft (alchemy), craft (poisonmaking), craft (traps), craft (x - all other mundane crafts), forgery, and I will throw in Arcana too because I think that one is important.
Alchemy (same + poisonmaking)
Arms and Armor (armorer, weaponsmith, and bowyer)
Building (building structures, siege engines etc.)
Devices (traps, locks, clockworks etc.)
Finery (art, art objects, gems, wands, forgery, and other forms of finery)
Arcana (magic items)
While I wouldn't mind seeing some of the craft skills combined these are too condensed to both in game balance and logically. Armor making and sword making are completely separate arts and should be, bowyer is a third that has almost nothing to do with either. The bowyer is a very specialized carpenter not a very specialized blacksmith. Covering all the things a PC wants to make with one skill is akin to a new skill make all the cool crap I want with no real way to balance that out.
Finery? One craft skill that covers every form of artistic expression conceived by man? Where was that class when I was in school?
And finally, Craft Arcana. Why not replace 8 feats with one skill? Are we talking about the same game?
Hmm... and what abourt giving the bard 8+INT skill points, rather tan debating about removing perform,...
Bard IS a skill monkey, he always was. If you are affraid that he's geting too close to rogue in skills then I say it's the skill selection that should make the difference and if the bard maxes out perform and spellcraft (or different perform or whatever the rogue doesn't essentially need) then he's at those six skill points...
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While I wouldn't mind seeing some of the craft skills combined these are too condensed to both in game balance and logically. Armor making and sword making are completely separate arts and should be, bowyer is a third that has almost nothing to do with either. The bowyer is a very specialized carpenter not a very specialized blacksmith. Covering all the things a PC wants to make with one skill is akin to a new skill make all the cool crap I want with no real way to balance that out.
Let's be real here. There are 5 or 6 categories of craft skills.
Finery? One craft skill that covers every form of artistic expression conceived by man? Where was that class when I was in school?
As opposed to Appraise... Right...
And finally, Craft Arcana. Why not replace 8 feats with one skill? Are we talking about the same game?
You still need the feats, I don't follow you here. I think you might be making an unfounded assumption.
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My niggle is that I spent $20+ on a softcover beta, that basicly is saying"hey, we want you to pay us to test this system for us, and maybe over the next year we may change it, and then you can pay us 39.99 for the gold version." Then what, if I want to see a Pathfinder Psionic version, I am gonna have to pay $20+ for a beta, than buy a gold version? If thats the case, I should just stick with WOTC, at least with them I know what I am getting myself into.But the Beta is free. You didn't have to pay for it. Paizo is giving out the PDF for free. The softcover Beta was provided for those who didn't want to print it up themselves. No one has to buy it. Including you. The PDF is free. You have no complaint.
Edit: Ninja'd
That's great in theory, but printing out a 400 plus page document at home is neither practical nor economical. Being glued to your computer for several days to read and digest the info isn't too appealing either. If you want to put the Beta to practical use, you pretty much have to get the book or have it printed and bound at Kinkos.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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That's great in theory, but printing out a 400 plus page document at home is neither practical nor economical. Being glued to your computer for several days to read and digest the info isn't too appealing either. If you want to put the Beta to practical use, you pretty much have to get the book or have it printed and bound at Kinkos.
So for the cost of a night at the movies, I have a nice thick book. I chose to buy it, and to download it.
He still has nothing more than Buyer's remorse. You're entitled to that, but please don't blame the Paizo orbital mind control lasers for it.
Ok, let me back up and re-explain the points and where this came about. Then we can have a full interpretation on what is being attempted to be done with the skill condensation.Here are a list of the skills. They take the places of appraise, craft (weapons), craft (armor), craft (bowyer fletcher), craft (alchemy), craft (poisonmaking), craft (traps), craft (x - all other mundane crafts), forgery, and I will throw in Arcana too because I think that one is important.
Alchemy (same + poisonmaking)
Arms and Armor (armorer, weaponsmith, and bowyer)
Building (building structures, siege engines etc.)
Devices (traps, locks, clockworks etc.)
Finery (art, art objects, gems, wands, forgery, and other forms of finery)
Arcana (magic items)
P A. Although I agree that unlike in modern economy (we are still in a medieval fantasy paradigm after all), a master craftsman should be better than anybody else in evaluating the tools and products of its trade, the relation should not work the other way around: A master Appraiser (because I think such individuals could exist in a fantasy setting) should not necessarily be a master craftsman. Perhaps a character should be allowed to substitute an Appraise check for a Craft check when the item relates to its profession? Otherwise, there's always the +2 synergy bonus...
The reduced Craft list is interesting, not "accurate", but works better in a frame where some characters have 2 skill points per level...
I too was pondering on the many item creation feats. In terms of game balance, it makes sense but otherwise, it feels kind of clunky. It feels like wizards are part of an union:
"Sorry, I don't do rings. Only staves. You'll have to see Bob for that, and he's only in before 3. I've got my wonderous items license however, so what about an amulet?"
sorry about that...
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A master Appraiser (because I think such individuals could exist in a fantasy setting) should not necessarily be a master craftsman.
Ah see I am perfectly fine to not have a macro appraise skill. Bring the magic item, art object, sword, armor, furniture, rare coin, poison, potion, alchemical device, lock, trap, architecture, horseshoe, or whatever else and they can come up with a value? And that is good?
The reduced Craft list is interesting, not "accurate", but works better in a frame where some characters have 2 skill points per level...
Agreed, a line has to be drawn at a point.
I too was pondering on the many item creation feats. In terms of game balance, it makes sense but otherwise, it feels kind of clunky. It feels like wizards are part of an union:
"Sorry, I don't do rings. Only staves. You'll have to see Bob for that, and he's only in before 3. I've got my wonderous items license however, so what about an amulet?"
LOL. Agreed again, something could be done. Monte Cook did a pretty good version of it in AE/AU. It broke the items feats up by effect rather than physical descriptor. But I am sure their is probably even better ways to do it.
A master Appraiser (because I think such individuals could exist in a fantasy setting) should not necessarily be a master craftsman.Ah see I am perfectly fine to not have a macro appraise skill. Bring the magic item, art object, sword, armor, furniture, rare coin, poison, potion, alchemical device, lock, trap, architecture, horseshoe, or whatever else and they can come up with a value? And that is good?
Well, professional evaluators do exist today... Whether such a profession (or field of expertise) fits into a medieval fantasy setting is however debatable. But to the extent that the trade of magic items and transactions reaching tens of thousands gold pieces are relatively common, I don't see why macro appraising shouldn't exist.
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Well, professional evaluators do exist today... Whether such a profession (or field of expertise) fits into a medieval fantasy setting is however debatable. But to the extent that the trade of magic items and transactions reaching tens of thousands gold pieces are relatively common, I don't see why macro appraising shouldn't exist.A master Appraiser (because I think such individuals could exist in a fantasy setting) should not necessarily be a master craftsman.Ah see I am perfectly fine to not have a macro appraise skill. Bring the magic item, art object, sword, armor, furniture, rare coin, poison, potion, alchemical device, lock, trap, architecture, horseshoe, or whatever else and they can come up with a value? And that is good?
Sorry for the long wait on the reply.
I don't agree, those evaluators have a field of expertise. Also think about what it means to be an appraiser now versus an appraiser then. We have software, market research, e-bay, etc. What did they have then? Not much.
Handle animal would be another area of appraisal...