Just curious.
A Pathfinder specific SRD would be useful for 3pps who'd like to produce materials specifically for the Pathfinder RPG as opposed to generic 3.5e. Obviosly one could use the rules as presented in the Core Rulebook for the system, but an SRD is nice to have.
Chief Technical Officer
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Just curious.
A Pathfinder specific SRD would be useful for 3pps who'd like to produce materials specifically for the Pathfinder RPG as opposed to generic 3.5e. Obviosly one could use the rules as presented in the Core Rulebook for the system, but an SRD is nice to have.
We recognize the need and plan to fill it, but specifics are not yet available.
[also, moved thread to Pathfinder RPG forum]
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While I support a SRD I'm also against it.
The SRD is a document of 3.5 mechanics that the OGL makes open. As it stands, everything presented in Pathfinder RPG is open content, except for the gods.
Who needs a SRD for that exactly? I know.. the people that want Pathfinder RPG without paying for it.
On the other hand, in 3.5, that's not true.. there's a lot of stuff in the 3 core books that isn't open content.
With all that in mind, I don't think 3PP really need a SRD, they can afford to buy a copy and I'm sure Paizo would be happy to give them a copy. For those guys trying to produce their own compatible content.. well right. If there has to be a SRD I don't think it needs to be made available to the general public.
Contributor
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While I support a SRD I'm also against it.
The SRD is a document of 3.5 mechanics that the OGL makes open. As it stands, everything presented in Pathfinder RPG is open content, except for the gods.
Who needs a SRD for that exactly? I know.. the people that want Pathfinder RPG without paying for it.
On the other hand, in 3.5, that's not true.. there's a lot of stuff in the 3 core books that isn't open content.
With all that in mind, I don't think 3PP really need a SRD, they can afford to buy a copy and I'm sure Paizo would be happy to give them a copy. For those guys trying to produce their own compatible content.. well right. If there has to be a SRD I don't think it needs to be made available to the general public.
I agree with SirUrza. The other way Paizo could do it without making their books unnecessary would be to leave out key parts of the rules, much like the standard SRD does...
While I support a SRD I'm also against it.
The SRD is a document of 3.5 mechanics that the OGL makes open. As it stands, everything presented in Pathfinder RPG is open content, except for the gods.
Who needs a SRD for that exactly? I know.. the people that want Pathfinder RPG without paying for it.
Meh... the SRD never hurt Wizards of the Coast. This is the same logic that keeps books out of libraries "If people read it in the Library they won't buy it".
Besides, if they don't publish it someone else will, it is all OGL content.
While I support a SRD I'm also against it.
The SRD is a document of 3.5 mechanics that the OGL makes open. As it stands, everything presented in Pathfinder RPG is open content, except for the gods.
Who needs a SRD for that exactly? I know.. the people that want Pathfinder RPG without paying for it.
I've heard that there's an even more scurrilous type of scoundrel than these moochers. They take rules created by others that are licensed under the OGL, package them with some material of their own, and sell the resulting product for profit without paying a cent to the original creators!! Can you imagine the sheer effrontery? :-)
Seriously, if you didn't want someone to use your intellectual property without paying for it, why would you offer it under a royalty-free license?
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Contributor
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Meh... the SRD never hurt Wizards of the Coast. This is the same logic that keeps books out of libraries "If people read it in the Library they won't buy it".
Your logic there is flawed only in that the majority of third edition players didn't know the SRD existed and are not on the Internet, whereas by definition right now everyone who has the PFRPG does know about the electronic version for free.
Besides, if they don't publish it someone else will, it is all OGL content.
That, however, I totally agree with. ^_^
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I'd personally love to see a hyperlinked PF SRD. That is soooo much more convenient and faster to search through than a 400+ page book, plus I can keep a bunch of firefox tabs open to different monster stats and stuff I need.
Amen. I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly. It's the kind of tool I'd certainly use. Like Dennis da Ogre said, since it's OGL, someone is bound to do THIS to it, and I'd love it. One of the most useful pages on the Interwebs, ever.
Don (Greyson)
I don't see any statement of that save for material that was directly lifted from the SRD. Paizo's own created stuff including the new rules ias as far as I know, closed content at the moment.
It's on the first page with the Credits and Table of Contents:
"Product Identity: The following items are hereby identified as Product Identity [...] and are not Open Content: All trademarks, registered trademarks, proper names [..], dialogue, plots, storylines, language, concepts, incidents, locations, characters, artwork, and trade dress.
Open Content: Except for material designated as Product Identity (see above), the contents of this Paizo Publishing game product are Open Game Content [..]"
I don't know what "concepts" means above in the list of Product Identity, though.
While I support a SRD I'm also against it.
The SRD is a document of 3.5 mechanics that the OGL makes open. As it stands, everything presented in Pathfinder RPG is open content, except for the gods.
Who needs a SRD for that exactly? I know.. the people that want Pathfinder RPG without paying for it.
How about people who would like to reference the rules when away from their collections, like at work, for instance? Heck, my understanding is that d20srd.org has been the standard reference around the Paizo offices, not the core three.
In any case, the purpose of the PFRPG rules isn't to sell copies of the rulebook, it's to sell copies of the adventures and have the rules in print for those who want them. If someone subscribes to the AP without buying the core rulebook, is that such a bad thing?
On the other hand, in 3.5, that's not true.. there's a lot of stuff in the 3 core books that isn't open content.
With all that in mind, I don't think 3PP really need a SRD, they can afford to buy a copy and I'm sure Paizo would be happy to give them a copy. For those guys trying to produce their own compatible content.. well right. If there has to be a SRD I don't think it needs to be made available to the general public.
I think that an referenceable SRD would be helpful. Not just a document like the Wizards SRD: You're right, that doesn't serve a clear purpose. But a hypertext, linkified version like d20srd.org is really quite useful. (Seriously, just clicking on the term yo need defined is so much better than needing to consult the index.)
Personally, I am working on pfsrd.org, currently being called Wayfinder. Per Paizo's request, it is remaining closed to the public until the Final version of the rules is released. Since Vic has indicated that Paizo has their own plans for an online rules reference, Wayfinder may never end up going public: Paizo's version may simply be better.
In an ideal world, of course, Paizo would like Wayfinder so much that they will consider it the 'official' reference and I will have saved them a lot of work.
My best suggestion is that Paizo would make a free Developers Pack (as opposed to an SRD) and have it contain things like the following:
How many points are used to make standard NPC,
How many points are needed to make an NPC 1 CR higher,
Approximately how powerful class features should at different levels be in order to be balanced (obiously not perfectly balanced but enough for some new writer to not be completely in the dark),
What constitutes a level 4 disease vs a level 5 disease,
What's the max level of disease, curses, etc.
Rules on magic items (so someone doesn't make a cloak of cha)
Designing your own trap,
standardized NPC/monster stat blocks
standardized spell block,
etc.
And other things that would help developers make compatable material while not "giving away the farm" so to speak. I would hope the doc would be free *hopeful* to anyone with a dba/Tax-ID number or more professional or simply a freelancer that asks for it. Have none of the contents be open so someone doesn't come along and pdf it and try to sell it.
Truely, if you're going to make all the rules open content anyways, why bother with an SRD?
How about people who would like to reference the rules when away from their collections, like at work, for instance? Heck, my understanding is that d20srd.org has been the standard reference around the Paizo offices, not the core three.
There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with someone like d20SRD.org buying the PDF of the book and copying all the open content into a web page. My argument is that Paizo does not need to do 90+% of the work for them. Any schmoe can take take the SRD, open it in word and save as html. ta da. If they're determined enough to do that, then let them cut and paste all the info out of PDF.
If Wizards ever created PDFs of the core three books, I'd use them at work over d20srd.org, but they didn't. Paizo's making a PDF. I plan on having a copy of that on my computer at my day job. I quality bookmarked PDF can do the exact same job as d20srd.org.
Truely, if you're going to make all the rules open content anyways, why bother with an SRD?
From a developer's standpoint, it's handy to have a document that you can be sure is 100% Open Content, rather than having to pick bits and pieces out of a rulebook that's mixed Open Content and Product Identity.
Wow, a lot of suspicious folks on this thread.
I'm writing up a setting and its going to be largely mechanic-free however, I want the option of easily accessing what I am certain are OGL rules, items, classes, concepts, etc. so I can do some support for Pathfinder, True20 and maybe even Savage World...only time will tell.
Being able to easily access the OGL Pathfinder material while in front of my word processor will make my workload easier. Call me crazy, but I am all about streamlining the process.
From a developer's standpoint, it's handy to have a document that you can be sure is 100% Open Content, rather than having to pick bits and pieces out of a rulebook that's mixed Open Content and Product Identity.
Yes and no. If the Open Content is "everything but the table with the gods on it", then a stand alone core book is fine.
Yes and no. If the Open Content is "everything but the table with the gods on it", then a stand alone core book is fine.
Note that that's not quite the case for the Alpha 3 release, though. For instance, the word "Pathfinder" is also Product Identity.
I agree that it's pretty easy to separate Open Content from Product Identity in the Pathfinder Alpha rules in general, though (except for "concepts" -- I'm not sure what that's supposed to indicate in the list of Product Identity).
There's nothing wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with someone like d20SRD.org buying the PDF of the book and copying all the open content into a web page. My argument is that Paizo does not need to do 90+% of the work for them.
Exactly.
I plan on having a copy of that on my computer at my day job. I quality bookmarked PDF can do the exact same job as d20srd.org.
Meh, my work laptop is 8 feet behind me on my work desk. I work at home so all I have to do is walk the 8 feet....lol
-- david
Papa.DRB
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I don't see any statement of that save for material that was directly lifted from the SRD. Paizo's own created stuff including the new rules ias as far as I know, closed content at the moment.It's on the first page with the Credits and Table of Contents:
"Product Identity: The following items are hereby identified as Product Identity [...] and are not Open Content: All trademarks, registered trademarks, proper names [..], dialogue, plots, storylines, language, concepts, incidents, locations, characters, artwork, and trade dress.
Open Content: Except for material designated as Product Identity (see above), the contents of this Paizo Publishing game product are Open Game Content [..]"
I don't know what "concepts" means above in the list of Product Identity, though.
See, I wanna know what is trade dress... I just see James Jacobs in a short, flowing pink dress with pumps and I shudder... PUT SOME PANTS ON DUDE! *BARF*
See, I wanna know what is trade dress
You silly silly dwarf. Let a kobold teach you.
Trade dress refers to characteristics of the visual appearance of a product or its packaging (or even the facade of a building such as a restaurant) that may be registered and protected from being used by competitors in the manner of a trademark.[vague] These characteristics can include the three-dimensional shape, graphic design, color, or even smell of a product and/or its packaging.
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lol so it has to be registered? What a pain in the butt.
I can see James at the trademark office now. "We need to register this letter-sized shape and book smell. And, um, this short, flowing pink dress and pumps *ahem*"
And now I can see James, the sun setting behind him, dancing seductively in his short, flowing pink dress and pumps while a cuddly kobold dances wildly around him tossing flower petals into his flowing locks.
I need therapy
I need therapy
Yes. Yes you do.
I need therapyYes. Yes you do.
Seconded.
:DYour Friendly Neighborhood Dalesman
"Bringing Big D**n Justice to the Bad Guys Since 1369 DR"
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I think that an referenceable SRD would be helpful. Not just a document like the Wizards SRD: You're right, that doesn't serve a clear purpose. But a hypertext, linkified version like d20srd.org is really quite useful. (Seriously, just clicking on the term yo need defined is so much better than needing to consult the index.)
Personally, I am working on pfsrd.org, currently being called Wayfinder. Per Paizo's request, it is remaining closed to the public until the Final version of the rules is released. Since Vic has indicated that Paizo has their own plans for an online rules reference, Wayfinder may never end up going public: Paizo's version may simply be better.
In an ideal world, of course, Paizo would like Wayfinder so much...
I am looking forward to this online reference.
I already ordered PFRPG Beta, I'll certainly order the final version, too.But when in need of quick access to a rule, neither the printed version nor any slow loading PDFs really help. html is still considerably faster (and if done right) better structured.
- Günther
P.S.
About those who distrust PRRPG players: Leave out the character creation rules or call them IP by Paizo. The D&D SRDs worked just fine that way, too.
P.S.
About those who distrust PRRPG players: Leave out the character creation rules or call them IP by Paizo. The D&D SRDs worked just fine that way, too.
Paizo, unfortunately, can't force that. Since it's derivative of OGL material, it has to be released under the OGL. The only reason Wizards could get away with that restriction was they never put it in an OGL source to begin with, and the only leverage they had to prevent people from creating their own OGL versions was the d20 license.
Paizo could put that restriction on their compatibility logo license, but they can't try to assert complete control of the IP.
lol so it has to be registered? What a pain in the butt.
I can see James at the trademark office now. "We need to register this letter-sized shape and book smell. And, um, this short, flowing pink dress and pumps *ahem*"
And now I can see James, the sun setting behind him, dancing seductively in his short, flowing pink dress and pumps while a cuddly kobold dances wildly around him tossing flower petals into his flowing locks.
I need therapy
I'm a counselor... and have several years of experience working at a mental hospital.
First, how do you feel when you envision other males in attire that is normally associated with the female form in Western culture?
Have you ever imagined yourself, a stocky, bearded dwarf, wearing such similiar garb? Or at least braiding your beard with little bows?
Do continue....
(and please pay the secretary $250 so I might ask such brief questions again when you visit next week...)
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And about those saying that it would enable "people to play the game without paying for it", the solution is easy: a restricted website, to users who have purchased the game.
So simple that Paizo can't find a way for people to prove they purchase stuff to give them PDFs? So simple that Wizards of the Coast can't find a way for people to prove they purchased 4e to give them free PDFs on DDI?
A restricted website is easy, proving you bought a book at a local store is the hard part.
And about those saying that it would enable "people to play the game without paying for it", the solution is easy: a restricted website, to users who have purchased the game.So simple that Paizo can't find a way for people to prove they purchase stuff to give them PDFs? So simple that Wizards of the Coast can't find a way for people to prove they purchased 4e to give them free PDFs on DDI?
A restricted website is easy, proving you bought a book at a local store is the hard part.
And, more to the point, even if Paizo had a perfectly working restricted website, that still wouldn't stop someone else from creating an unrestricted website.
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I agree that a Pathfinder hypertext document is an essential ingredient in my willingness to play the system. And to those who say "It's already available digitally as pdf!" I say bah!
Even IF you have a super-fast machine that doesn't lag when you turn the pages of a pdf, and even IF that pdf is thoroughly boommarked, it doesn't even come close to the functionality of a well built html version with lots of cross linking. Got monster with a spell like ability? Great, just click on the name of the ability to bring up the spell it approximates. This is not to mention (as others have pointed out) the ability to have many pages open at once in tabs (firefox, chrome) or windows (IE).
Now, if you're a hardcore hard-copy book person, I can understand... a couple of guys in my group are like that and I will ALWAYS own the books too. But if you're interested in electronic resources and are arguing that Paizo's planned pdf is as useful as a hyperlinked html version, that's simply not true.
So, I think there is a large demand for a well-built html reference work. If Paizo wants to do it themselves (or contract it out) and then sell it, I'm ok with that, I'd be happy to pay a reasonable price for such a tool. If they want to "officially" allow a quasi-OGL version that leaves out a few tidbits like character advancement (like WotC did) that's fine too. But doing nothing to engage the "laptop gaming crowd" and the "I work on games at work crowd" will, ultimately, hurt a great game that I really want to see succeed!