I agree that there is still an issue with cherry-picking monsters. Note that a character also gets the natural weapons of the assumed form (it doesn't say that in the spell description, but rather under the boilerplate for the Polymorph subschool). So a character could become a three-headed sirrush with Beast Shape IV, for instance -- 120 ft. ground speed, four claws (3d6), three bites (4d6), resistance to every element, pounce, etc. I'm not sure that it'll be a problem in practice, though; how often will you come across a three-headed sirrush (or any other "munchkin" monster) if your DM doesn't want you to?
Some people have suggested just picking from a list of abilities (like an Astral Construct) or something like the PHB II shapeshifting druid's "Predator" form, "Forest Avenger" form, etc. I don't know if that'll happen or not.
Some people have suggested just picking from a list of abilities (like an Astral Construct) or something like the PHB II shapeshifting druid's "Predator" form, "Forest Avenger" form, etc. I don't know if that'll happen or not.
This is fundamentally the only way to actually balance Polymorph spells.
|
Some people have suggested just picking from a list of abilities (like an Astral Construct) or something like the PHB II shapeshifting druid's "Predator" form, "Forest Avenger" form, etc. I don't know if that'll happen or not.This is fundamentally the only way to actually balance Polymorph spells.
But still leaves the problem of players getting ahold of unbalanced monster abilities through; Summoning, Charm/Dominate, Rebuke/Command, Leadership, 'Monster races' and flat-out hiring Munchkin Giant to use his Munchkin powers on their behalf.
The *real* solution, IMO, is to not make Munchkin Giants.
If the existence of a player getting his filthy paws on the Wish-granting abilities of an Efreeti is going to utterly wreck your game, the solution is not to make sure that no Druid or Wizard can turn into one and use some feat/prestige class/whatever to mimic it's Supernatural abilities, because that won't stop the Cleric of Asmodeus with the Fire Domain from Rebuking one and just Commanding it to give him Wishes, or the dude with the Scoll of Gate or Candle of Invocation from calling one up and getting free Wishes, or the dude with Monster Summoning Whatever from doing that, or the player just walking up to the LE Efreeti, making a Diplomacy check of 45 and saying, 'Gimme Wishes. For each one you give me, I'll make one for you, and together we'll rule the galaxy!'
The 'problem' is that Efreeti can grant free Wishes, and that broken no matter *what* shapeshifters can do.
Some critters are just too good, or have powers that are badwrongfun. If every single Wizard wants to turn into a War Troll, that's a sign that the War Troll might be a little 'too good' for it's HD / type, not that Polymorph, Charm, Rebuke, Summoning, Calling, Leadership, Diplomacy or any of the other diverse ways in which a player could get a War Troll's abilities under his command need to be nerfed.
Summoning, Shapeshifting, Mind Control spells, all important parts of the fantasy genre. Nerfing them because the War Troll / Efreeti / Munchkin Giant has some stupidly unbalanced abilities is trying to wave away the smoke, but leaving the fire still burning.
But still leaves the problem of players getting ahold of unbalanced monster abilities through; Summoning, Charm/Dominate, Rebuke/Command, Leadership, 'Monster races' and flat-out hiring Munchkin Giant to use his Munchkin powers on their behalf.
The *real* solution, IMO, is to not make Munchkin Giants.
...
The 'problem' is that Efreeti can grant free Wishes, and that broken no matter *what* shapeshifters can do.
Some critters are just too good, or have powers that are badwrongfun. If every single Wizard wants to turn into a War Troll, that's a sign that the War Troll might be a little 'too good' for it's HD / type, not that Polymorph, Charm, Rebuke, Summoning, Calling, Leadership, Diplomacy or any of the other diverse ways in which a player could get a War Troll's abilities under his command need to be nerfed.
Summoning, Shapeshifting, Mind Control spells, all important parts of the...
Restricting monster design based on the assumption that players will get access to the monster's abilities would be TERRIBLE.
Frankly, mind control and calling spells also need to be reined in, and Diplomacy is NOTORIOUSLY broken as it currently works. Summon Monster could, like Polymorph, give you a monster with bonuses chosen from a fixed list.
Long-term mind-control effects... they're iconic of D&D, not of all fantasy, but they're also pretty bad for the game. Charm Person causes arguments, gets abused, and replaces social skills.
On top of that, rebuke/command, animate dead, etc, when used to get armies, is bad for games. I've heard stories of necromancers (both arcane and divine) posing huge problems for their DMs because of their undead servants.
The game is about a party of adventurers. It should probably focus on that party, not on the many things they can summon/dominate/command along. Those things add bookkeeping, too, and 3.x's multitude of things to track, unreasonably long turns, and unreasonably long time *between* turns are, in fact, gameplay problems--problems that many of us have gotten used to, but still problems.
|
|
Restricting monster design based on the assumption that players will get access to the monster's abilities would be TERRIBLE.
Terrible to balance the PCs against the monsters in their world, so that if a group wants to play a 'monster party' they can do so without the entire game collapsing around them? Terrible to allow a fantasy wizard to use fantasy spells like control and summoning and shapeshifting? Terrible to allow a warlord or evil high priest to mobilize a group of monstrous beasts?
To just get rid of all of that stuff, shapeshifting, mind controlling magics, summoning, *the entire Enchantment and Conjuration schools,* is just a tacit admission that this game engine is completely inadequate to simulate a fantasy game.
Meanwhile, other rules-sets, such as GURPS, function just fine with colleges full of mind control spells and 'create animal' spells and demon summoning spells and undead animating spells and shapeshifting spells.
*I* don't think that D&D is that weak of a system. *I* know that it can be done, because I've done it myself, by saying stuff like, "No, War Trolls don't exist. Try turning into an Annis, they're pretty buff." and "No, the Djinni in the ring grants wishes with a small 'w', not Wishes, as in the 9th level spell. He can create stuff and give it to you with his Major Creation-type powers, or transport you to faraway lands, or whisper to you secret lore."
Summoning, Control, Leadership, Animation, Shapeshifting, etc. are, IMO, non-negotiable. If all magic is good for is blowing crap up, because the game breaks down if anybody does anything *magical,* then we might as well just ditch 3.5 altogether and play a game that doesn't have Enchanters or Conjurers or Necromancers or Druids or the Leadership feat.
There's plenty of said games out there, but they aren't D&D.
Frankly, mind control and calling spells also need to be reined in, and Diplomacy is NOTORIOUSLY broken as it currently works.
Are you talking about the Pathfinder version of Diplomacy or the 3.5 version of Diplomacy (which has been nerfed to some extent)?