I've been working on converting some rules from the Expanded Psionics Handbook to Pathfinder RPG Alpha 3, and writing them up to a somewhat professional standard, for possible eventual publication if and when I finish converting everything in the book that's worth converting.
Today, I made the first draft of the content for the Elan race available in my personal weblog:
It's available under the terms of the OGL (of course), and I hope some of you will give it a shot if you have need of the Elan race for Pathfinder RPG playtesting, and give me some feedback on how well it works for you. Suggestions, requests, and critiques are welcome -- including requests for specific rules from the EHP to revise/convert and suggestions for what you believe should be changed as part of the conversion process.
Notes for optional rules will be addressed in green sidebars (you'll see an example of this in the Elan entry), and developer notes explaining some of the thinking that went into the rules choices I made will appear in blue sidebars.
Let me know what you think, and I hope you enjoy it.
I thinks it's too powerful.
I think you should also eliminate the human bonus to skills as well. Changing a creature's type is generally a level in itself.
But that's just me.
I seem to have overlooked part of the skill bonus thing when I wrote that up. I've changed it so that it's clear that only the bonus point at first level, and bonus skill points for levels gained before becoming an Elan, remain. I didn't intend it to come across as providing ongoing bonus skill points.
Thanks for pointing that out.
Was there anything else about it that made it seem too powerful to you?
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Apotheon,
Overall, I like how you've presented the elan, almost as a template (which is what I thought the elan "race" should have been anyway). I can see, though, why it might be construed as a little powerful.
Let's look at it like a template, and say a human of 2nd+ level becomes an elan. He/she basically gains the aberration type, bonus power points, and two very useful abilities for the price of a single feat, a -1 reaction penalty, and no longer getting a bonus skill point every level. IMO, and I'm not an expert at assigning these, I'd give that a +1 level adjustment.
Suggestion - assume that the process in becoming an elan is draining in some way, and the character loses 2 points from an ability like Strength or Constitution. I think that would be sufficiently balancing, but not overly hurtful to a character who is likely a psion anyway.
I also like what you've done to the elan's basic psionic abilities though, with the exception of Repletion/Psionic Fortitude. Again, just my opinion, but trying to keep track of how long in a day the character was psionically focused in order to determine if he needs to eat/sleep/drink is a bit more difficult than just spending a power point and calling it a day. Also, using the 20 of 24 hours rule, I would be a little hard pressed to determine when the consequences took effect. I'm guessing they would take effect the next day, but it's a little confusing (and it doesn't say, but I'm also guessing the elan would still need 8 hours of "rest" to replenish spells/power points, right?)
All in all, though, a good job.
Let's look at it like a template, and say a human of 2nd+ level becomes an elan. He/she basically gains the aberration type, bonus power points, and two very useful abilities for the price of a single feat, a -1 reaction penalty, and no longer getting a bonus skill point every level. IMO, and I'm not an expert at assigning these, I'd give that a +1 level adjustment.
Suggestion - assume that the process in becoming an elan is draining in some way, and the character loses 2 points from an ability like Strength or Constitution. I think that would be sufficiently balancing, but not overly hurtful to a character who is likely a psion anyway.
There is at least one other cost as well. Specifically, you no longer get to choose your character's "favored class" -- it's chosen for you. In the D&D 3.5 system, that benefit of being a Human is pretty significant. By the way, I think eliminating the ability of Humans to change "favored class" designation to best effect at any level is a mistake, but I'll withhold final judgment for now, since I don't know Paizo's reasons for making that change.
Of course, if your intent for the character is to be a Psion anyway, that may not be much of a difference. On the other hand, I think acquiring a -2 penalty to an attribute is pretty harsh. I'll consider it as a possibility, though, and if you have further arguments for this measure I'd be glad to read them.
I also like what you've done to the elan's basic psionic abilities though, with the exception of Repletion/Psionic Fortitude. Again, just my opinion, but trying to keep track of how long in a day the character was psionically focused in order to determine if he needs to eat/sleep/drink is a bit more difficult than just spending a power point and calling it a day. Also, using the 20 of 24 hours rule, I would be a little hard pressed to determine when the consequences took effect. I'm guessing they would take effect the next day, but it's a little confusing (and it doesn't say, but I'm also guessing the elan would still need 8 hours of "rest" to replenish spells/power points, right?)
Actually, the Elan as presented in the EPH don't require any sleep at all. As with standard D&D 3.5 Elves, the Elan are described as needing only four hours of meditation instead. The way the numbers work out with my reinvention of the Elan race, it should be normal for a character to have to meditate for four hours a day to replenish spent power points, assuming it was a typical adventuring day (requiring extensive use of the character's psionic powers). Very heavy psionic power use or very poor Autohypnosis rolls might result in needing a fifth hour, while very light psionic power use or very light Autohypnosis rolls might result in needing only three hours (or less, if the character sat around reading a romance novel all day).
Now consider what happens if a character runs out of power points, and doesn't get to meditate for four hours. Spend one hour meditating, and you've just run over your four hour maximum. This limits the benefits of not requiring sleep, food, or drink, but (perhaps more importantly in the general case) it also serves to limit how much a psionic character might want to use psionic powers, giving him or her strong motivations to avoid spending power points too quickly -- thus effectively limiting an Elan's power in the game under many circumstances.
A lot of the detrimental effects of the system on an Elan character are not clearly visible in the numbers, but they exist nonetheless. Further, the Elan in the Expanded Psionics Handbook also have a level adjustment of +0 and are in some ways more powerful than my revised Elan race. With the removal of the ability to prevent damage, in exchange for an ability to meditate to recover damage after the fact, I think the balance of power is definitely in favor of the EPH version -- which is as I intended, because I believe that for an Elan Psion the power granted by Resilience was a bit much.
. . . which brings me to a final point:
My aim is (at least) three-fold.
1. Make it fit with a Pathfinder flavor of rules "upgrade".
2. Improve on the shortcomings of the original rules in the EPH.
3. Keep things compatible with the (non-OGL) expansion books for D&D 3.5.
Number 2 in that list must be limited by a couple of things, though:
1. It has to be similar enough to attract the same players who liked the EPH itself. My desire is to make it more attractive to both the people who like the EPH as it is and those who found the EPH lacking in some way, but who liked the basic ideas and want them updated for Pathfinder RPG.
2. It shouldn't screw too much with already existing character concepts when they are converted to Pathfinder RPG rules, including a conversion of the EPH rules to my updated rules. Adding a little to what such a character has on his or her sheet is acceptable for that purpose, as long as it doesn't make the character's place in the campaign more unbalanced, as might be changing some of the mechanics so long as the end result is similar -- but subtracting from the character sheet is a great way to piss people off and generate flame wars and bad reactions.
Both of those two concerns, and especially the second of them, suggest that it would be a bad idea to create completely new limits on the character's stats that did not previously exist. It takes a light, subtle touch to bring the Elan race back in line with the core system races without creating more problems than it solves, and I think the replacement of the damage prevention Resilience race feature with the damage recovery ability of the Psionic Fortitude race feature makes up for the alteration of the Charisma penalty with enough left over detriment to the character's combat abilities to limit some of the potentially unbalancing features of the Elan race as presented in the EPH.
Now . . . that's my take on the situation. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong about anything you said -- but this is what I believe to be some of the most important influences on the process of updating the Elan. If you have more to say that might convince me to take a different course of action than I have taken so far, I welcome it; I want to make informed, well-reasoned decisions, after all.
All in all, though, a good job.
Thanks. I appreciate the compliment, and the rest of the feedback as well.
I prefer the 3.5 Elan the way it is. Maybe I'd add a +2 Int, but that's about it.
I prefer the 3.5 Elan the way it is. Maybe I'd add a +2 Int, but that's about it.
I agree. "Elan" could arguably fit as a template, but they carefully presented it such that it worked fine as it was. Remember, an Elan is immortal, which isn't very powerful from a mechanical point of view, but it raises the question of why someone would want to become a lich when they could just become an Elan. Immortality is a major source of motivation for BBEGs, and if they could get it for the cost of a feat... well, that just seems a little silly.
Plus you changed the mechanics of the Elan, which I liked almost as much as the flavor. I'd keep those as they were.
(Also, while we're on the subject, "Half-elf" would really fit as a template. Getting it to work is tricky, though).
Remember, an Elan is immortal, which isn't very powerful from a mechanical point of view, but it raises the question of why someone would want to become a lich when they could just become an Elan. Immortality is a major source of motivation for BBEGs, and if they could get it for the cost of a feat... well, that just seems a little silly.
What makes you think it's so easy to "just become an Elan"? There are other costs and obstacles than those made up purely of game-mechanics.
Otherwise . . . why become an Elan, when you could become a lich? I mean, all you need to worry about then is 20th-level Clerics turning you, and as a side-benefit you're now immune to criticals. You can even be healed by arcane magic. If all we're considering is the cost in game mechanics, I'm having a hard time finding the benefit of being an Elan, especially if you started out as an arcane spellcaster rather than a psionic character.
Oh, but . . . there are costs and obstacles aside from mere game mechanics effects of a template for both Elan and liches.
Plus you changed the mechanics of the Elan, which I liked almost as much as the flavor. I'd keep those as they were.
What exactly did you like about them that I changed? I don't see a whole lot of explanation there. If there's something specific you like about EPH Elan, I'd like to know what it is and why you like it.
(Also, while we're on the subject, "Half-elf" would really fit as a template. Getting it to work is tricky, though).
True, it would be a good candidate for a template race, at least in some game settings. So would half-orc, for that matter. Maybe I'll look into that at some point in the future -- but for now, I have other things on my agenda.
What makes you think it's so easy to "just become an Elan"?
What makes you think it's easier than becoming a lich?
Otherwise . . . why become an Elan, when you could become a lich?
The Level Adjustment (obviously, they wouldn't use that term, but it has an effect on the character, so they would have some term for it), the cost, the having-to-do-irredeemable-evil which is largely a problem because it means that as a lich you have a giant sign tattooed on your head that says "Adventurers, kill me for renown and lots of XP!" Plus, being undead is probably a lot more unpleasant than being a mild Aberration, and you don't have to worry about Turning at all.
Whereas dropping you back to level 1 gives high-level casters a very concrete reason to not want to become an elan, has no real effect on the playability of it for PCs, and frankly is really interesting to roleplay.
What exactly did you like about them that I changed?
Everything, which is why I didn't bother explaining. I liked that you could block and attack or boost your saves. It gave you interesting tactical decisions. I also liked that you could just spent a power point to not need food and water; it was clean and easy and didn't require any bookkeeping (plus the whole "psifoc for 20 hours a day" strikes me as inelegant).
You changed it to be more useful (probably not a good thing, since the race was pretty balanced before), but less interesting, and there are a few parts that bother me.
1) If you have psifoc, you get +2 to saves, which is better overall (especially if he has a second psifoc), but also means the bonus becomes pedestrian, just a general part of life for you rather than a special decision you made.
2) Being able to heal yourself after the fact is better overall than blocking an attack since you can get yourself back up to full, rather than having to choose whether to block this 10-point attack or waiting in case he crits with his next swing. However, it also means that Elan are just as capable of being one-shoted as the next guy, and it was one of their selling points that they could potentially survive an 1,800+ attack at 20th level, albeit for the cost of their entire PP pool. They're dead in the next round anyway now that they have no offensive capability, but the sheer audacity of being able to take such a ridiculous attack made them unique.
3) Additionally, I am very concerned at their ability to regain power points. At higher levels, it is entirely conceivable that the elan could hit 50+, which means unless the GM never gives the group more than an hour between encounters, there's a good chance the elan won't have to worry much about energy management, which is half the fun of playing a psion (or, maybe just 30%, but still), and is exactly the opposite circumstance that the elan used to find himself in. It also means that the Kineticist and Egoist are by far the best Psion disciplines for the elan, by far. If you wanted to play any other discipline, you would pretty much have to take some feat to make Autohypnosis a class skill.
Er, slight clarification:
Everything, which is why I didn't bother explaining. I liked that you could block an attack, or boost your saves.
And by "50+", I meant "50+ on an Autohypnosis check."
What makes you think it's so easy to "just become an Elan"?What makes you think it's easier than becoming a lich?
Uh, what?
the having-to-do-irredeemable-evil which is largely a problem because it means that as a lich you have a giant sign tattooed on your head that says "Adventurers, kill me for renown and lots of XP!"
I thought we were talking about "big bad evil guys" -- you know, the sort who do "irredeemable evil" regardless of whether they're liches -- rather than good-aligned PCs.
you don't have to worry about Turning at all.
Nice how you just overlooked the compensatory benefit I mentioned. I guess it's easy to make being a lich look like it's all down side when you ignore the good stuff.
Whereas dropping you back to level 1 gives high-level casters a very concrete reason to not want to become an elan
Yeah -- like, there shouldn't be any Elan, since nobody in his right mind would ever do that. "Oh, I'm just going to give up everything that makes me me." I'm sorry, but destroying all sense of believability for the motivation of a character isn't justified by an attempt to maintain game balance by making a character lose all his levels and capabilities (which, by the way, just swings the balance very far the other way).
has no real effect on the playability of it for PCs
Losing 16 levels has no effect on playability . . . ?
What exactly did you like about them that I changed?Everything, which is why I didn't bother explaining.
That's exceedingly unhelpful.
I liked that you could block and attack or boost your saves. It gave you interesting tactical decisions. I also liked that you could just spent a power point to not need food and water; it was clean and easy and didn't require any bookkeeping (plus the whole "psifoc for 20 hours a day" strikes me as inelegant).
Thank you for finally saying something useful. Finally.
I'll have another look at things in terms of providing that kind of interesting tactical decision making opportunity.
You changed it to be more useful (probably not a good thing, since the race was pretty balanced before), but less interesting, and there are a few parts that bother me.
I found the "nothing can hurt me as long as I have power points" thing pretty unbalancing.
1) If you have psifoc, you get +2 to saves, which is better overall (especially if he has a second psifoc), but also means the bonus becomes pedestrian, just a general part of life for you rather than a special decision you made.
I think you're trying too hard. The save bonus thing doesn't get more or less interesting based on whether it's a function of psionic focus or of spending power points -- and, speaking of bookkeeping, part of the reason for changing the way the save bonus worked was a decision made after a lot of play, where I discovered that in a save-heavy game session I damn near erased a hole in my character sheet because of all the repeated erase-and-rewrite instances of spending power points.
2) Being able to heal yourself after the fact is better overall than blocking an attack since you can get yourself back up to full, rather than having to choose whether to block this 10-point attack or waiting in case he crits with his next swing.
It's only better overall if you don't actually need the ability to negate damage while it's happening to stay alive. A ninth level Elan Psion/Elocator -- specifically, my Elan character before the translation to PRPGa3 rules -- can typically have as many as 150 hit points' worth of fight in him at one time even after activating a few combat bonus powers. That is unbalancing.
it was one of their selling points that they could potentially survive an 1,800+ attack at 20th level, albeit for the cost of their entire PP pool.
Yeah, that's a great selling point -- for munchkins.
the sheer audacity of being able to take such a ridiculous attack made them unique.
I take it "unique" is your euphemism for "absurdly unbalancing".
At higher levels, it is entirely conceivable that the elan could hit 50+, which means unless the GM never gives the group more than an hour between encounters, there's a good chance the elan won't have to worry much about energy management
. . . which is just a fraction of a typical 20th level Elan Psion's power point total. Hell, by 10th level my Elan Psion/Elocator had about twice that -- and I don't know about you, but I don't tend to let people meditate effectively while walking, riding on horseback, et cetera, when I'm GMing a game. Are you imagining a party's Psion being carted around in a wheelbarrow during a dungeon crawl so that they can make progress and let him sit around meditating all the time?
Do you expect everyone to want to wait a couple hours after every encounter before they even open another door?
energy management, which is half the fun of playing a psion (or, maybe just 30%, but still)
You must be an accountant if that's what makes the game fun for you.
Anyway, it's not like it actually eliminates "energy management" -- it just changes the rules a little bit.
It also means that the Kineticist and Egoist are by far the best Psion disciplines for the elan, by far. If you wanted to play any other discipline, you would pretty much have to take some feat to make Autohypnosis a class skill.
The revised Elan race is not intended to exist in a vacuum. As far as I'm concerned, giving Autohypnosis to some Disciplines as a class skill and not to others was a pretty bad oversight (or just a really bad idea, if it wasn't an oversight).
Hell, maybe I should amend the Elan race so that it adds Autohypnosis as a class skill no matter what class you choose for your character. I don't know yet if it's a good idea -- but it's worth considering.
Basically, I guess all my differences of opinion with you relate to one of the following:
1. You consider taking away all of a character's levels a good idea, whereas I consider it a way to gimp a character so badly it tends to become unplayable within an ongoing campaign. It can be pretty difficult for a first-level character to contribute meaningfully in twelfth level campaign.
2. You seem to think that making lichdom more palatable than becoming an Elan by making the process of becoming an Elan something only the certifiably insane and the effectively suicidal would consider is a good idea, whereas I think it's basically just a really passive-aggressive way of saying "You're not allowed to play an Elan." At least, that's the case when you have players that want to play a roleplaying game rather than a roll-playing game. Even roll-players would only really consider it at first level.
3. You seem to think that being able to take a single 1800 HP attack and keep on swinging isn't a game balance destroyer, while I do.
4. You seem to enjoy heavy bookkeeping as a way to force players to make difficult decisions in terms of character actions, whereas I prefer to reduce that kind of bookkeeping in favor of more roleplaying-related decisions.
5. I guess you don't think a GM can keep track of four hours' time in a given in-game day very easily. Meanwhile, from actually playing an Elan, I've found it pretty easy.
6. You seem to think that initially neglecting to mention any specific differences of opinion in favor of just saying something sucks constitutes constructive criticism. I disagree.
Shoot, the board ate my post. Allright, here we go again:
First, sorry if you took my tone to be hostile. That wasn't my intent, I just get enthusiastic about Elans and it can come off that way sometimes.
I thought we were talking about "big bad evil guys" -- you know, the sort who do "irredeemable evil" regardless of whether they're liches -- rather than good-aligned PCs.
Excessive evil acts call excessive attention to yourself, which is imprudent. BBEGs are better when they act intelligently.
That's exceedingly unhelpful.
Because I disliked all the changes you made, I could only really recommend you undo all of them, which isn't constructive. You insisted that I give my opinion, though. And then bit my head off.
Thank you for finally saying something useful. Finally.
I don't think my second post qualifies as "finally," particularly given the length of my first post.
I found the "nothing can hurt me as long as I have power points" thing pretty unbalancing.
Unless you only get attacked no more than once per turn and you never use your swift action for anything else and you don't mind bleeding power points from yet another metaphorical orifice and you have the power points, you aren't at all invulnerable. The ability comes along with significant drawbacks, and those make it balanced.
I think you're trying too hard. The save bonus thing doesn't get more or less interesting based on whether it's a function of psionic focus or of spending power points -- and, speaking of bookkeeping, part of the reason for changing the way the save bonus worked was a decision made after a lot of play, where I discovered that in a save-heavy game session I damn near erased a hole in my character sheet because of all the repeated erase-and-rewrite instances of spending power points.
PPs are best tracked with counters of some sort. Counters are very easy to use, and anything from glass beads (I found them at $1 per bag and only needed about one bag's worth even at 12th level) to pennies to scraps of paper work well.
It's only better overall if you don't actually need the ability to negate damage while it's happening to stay alive.
The ability is only really useful to prevent freak crits, and even then only if you have the power points, and even then you might need them later, and even then you might take more hits that round which could kill you. And freak crits aren't fun for anyone, not even the other players, not even the DM (unless he's a sadist, in which case I wouldn't play under him).
Yeah, that's a great selling point -- for munchkins.
Misguided ad hominem aside, it's also wrong. A munchkin would realize that no Psion would ever be subject to an 1,800 point attack (certainly not until 35th level or beyond), so the ability to negate such an attack, while cool conceptually, is totally powerless.
I take it "unique" is your euphemism for "absurdly unbalancing".
Having played with the XPH since it first came out and having heard about many other groups that used it, I haven't heard of anyone who actually played with the elan for a statistically relevant amount of time who found the elan to be overpowered. Impressive, perhaps, and certainly fun, but the cry to power him down only very very rarely came from anyone who had actually played with him.
. . . which is just a fraction of a typical 20th level Elan Psion's power point total.
But he can keep doing it.
Hell, by 10th level my Elan Psion/Elocator had about twice that -- and I don't know about you, but I don't tend to let people meditate effectively while walking, riding on horseback, et cetera, when I'm GMing a game. Are you imagining a party's Psion being carted around in a wheelbarrow during a dungeon crawl so that they can make progress and let him sit around meditating all the time?
Sure. He makes a Concentration check to use Autohypnosis (I believe Concentration even has a specified use for letting you use other skills like this right in the RAW already) while his horse is tied to the leader's horse, so he doesn't have to steer. Or maybe he buys a Wand of Floating Disk and has the Rogue UMD it for him. Or any of a number of perfectly reasonably, perfectly simple ways of pulling it off.
Do you expect everyone to want to wait a couple hours after every encounter before they even open another door?
The ability certainly motivates such behavior, though I don't expect most Elans to bother.
You must be an accountant if that's what makes the game fun for you.
Insults are uncalled for (at least, I assume that's an insult; it's in an insult formula). You insisted I give my opinion.
Part of the fun of playing a Psion is figuring out when to pull your punches, to hit him with a 5d6 Crystal Shard instead of a 15d6 one or a Crystallize. The limited PPs is what makes this an actual choice rather than simply aesthetic.
Anyway, it's not like it actually eliminates "energy management" -- it just changes the rules a little bit.
Yes, it changes it to time management instead. You don't spend relying on the 4 encounters per day but on how much time you'll have after this battle to recharge.
The revised Elan race is not intended to exist in a vacuum. As far as I'm concerned, giving Autohypnosis to some Disciplines as a class skill and not to others was a pretty bad oversight (or just a really bad idea, if it wasn't an oversight).
Actually, I overreacted about this. I forgot how Pathfinder handles class skills. My bad!
Basically, I guess all my differences of opinion with you relate to one of the following:
1. You consider taking away all of a character's levels a good idea, whereas I consider it a way to gimp a character so badly it tends to become unplayable within an ongoing campaign. It can be pretty difficult for a first-level character to contribute meaningfully in twelfth level campaign.
You do not become an elan during an ongoing campaign. You choose to be an elan rather than an elf or a dwarf or a human during character creation. Since the book doesn't offer any mechanics at all about how to become an elan (or even so much as guidelines for suggestions for the DM), and since the one thing D&D does above all else is try to address everything mechanically, and since it would be a colossal oversight to simply forget to address such considerations, it is safe to assume that as far as the book is concerned, elan are the same as any other race who simply have an interesting, unique sort of "birth" that would appeal to people who wanted immortality just that much and/or actively wanted to forget their pasts and start over, or whatever other justifications you wanted. Were it a template with mechanics about how to gain it, then losing your levels would suck. But as far as the book is concerned, you can no more "become an elan mid-campaign" than you can spontaneously decide to switch from being an elf to a dwarf. That is why losing your levels is "interesting" rather than "arbitrary and crushing."
2. You seem to think that making lichdom more palatable than becoming an Elan by making the process of becoming an Elan something only the certifiably insane and the effectively suicidal would consider is a good idea, whereas I think it's basically just a really passive-aggressive way of saying "You're not allowed to play an Elan." At least, that's the case when you have players that want to play a roleplaying game rather than a roll-playing game. Even roll-players would only really consider it at first level.
See above. If the book were being passive-aggressive about letting people become Elans, it would have given mechanics for how to do so, but make them really bad, rather than not give them anything more than a vague shake.
3. You seem to think that being able to take a single 1800 HP attack and keep on swinging isn't a game balance destroyer, while I do.
No elan will every be subject to an 1,800 point attack because it would be absurdly sadistic of the DM to ever throw that much damage at anyone (and any DM that sadistic will "get" the Elan some how. Possible by throwing two such attacks in one round). If the situation will never come up, immunity to it is powerless.
4. You seem to enjoy heavy bookkeeping as a way to force players to make difficult decisions in terms of character actions, whereas I prefer to reduce that kind of bookkeeping in favor of more roleplaying-related decisions.
I sometimes enjoy playing characters who have to make careful choices with their abilities, who can't just attack at full strength all day without consequence, who have to be efficient and get creative. The bookkeeping is a minor necessary annoyance.
5. I guess you don't think a GM can keep track of four hours' time in a given in-game day very easily. Meanwhile, from actually playing an Elan, I've found it pretty easy.
I merely think it is more trouble than it's worth.
Something that occurs to me, though: if the Elan is put to sleep for 4.1 hours, he then has to sleep another 8 that night, which seems very counter-intuitive to me.
6. You seem to think that initially neglecting to mention any specific differences of opinion in favor of just saying something sucks constitutes constructive criticism. I disagree.
I had no constructive criticism to offer, and didn't want to get dragged into a discussion in which my only suggestion would be to scrap all the work you did and simply import what we had all along with the necessary Patherfinder changes. You insisted that I give my opinion, though, and then insulted attacked me me repeatedly with a very abrasive, antagonistic tone, which I understand (but don't appreciate) because I have been on the receiving end of "I'm sorry, but this is no good" replies before, and it's no fun. But, you literally asked for it...
That's exceedingly unhelpful.What exactly did you like about them that I changed?Everything, which is why I didn't bother explaining.
I agree, which is why I didn't bother to make the same comment.
Let me put it another way: Why do you think the elan's abilities need to be changed? Having an elan template makes some sense, I agree, but what specifically do you dislike about the 3.5 elan's special abilities?
Let me put it another way: Why do you think the elan's abilities need to be changed? Having an elan template makes some sense, I agree, but what specifically do you dislike about the 3.5 elan's special abilities?
Please read my comments above and the developer notes here for some of the details.
Let me put it another way: Why do you think the elan's abilities need to be changed? Having an elan template makes some sense, I agree, but what specifically do you dislike about the 3.5 elan's special abilities?Please read my comments above and the developer notes here for some of the details.
I read your comments above, and I skimmed through the comments in your blog. Here's the comments I found as to why you thought it needed changing:
"Some of the rules in the EPH were not perfectly suited to PRPGa3, and some of them just needed to be changed because we felt they could have been done better in the first place." -- This is not very specific.
"A lot of the detrimental effects of the system on an Elan character are not clearly visible in the numbers, but they exist nonetheless." -- This is not very specific either.
"With the removal of the ability to prevent damage, in exchange for an ability to meditate to recover damage after the fact, I think the balance of power is definitely in favor of the EPH version -- which is as I intended, because I believe that for an Elan Psion the power granted by Resilience was a bit much." -- O.K., here's something concrete. I can see the opinion that preventing damage is too powerful, although I haven't found it to be so in practice; I've found it to be almost always more useful to use power points on (a) manifesting powers, or (b) getting a +4 racial bonus on saves.
"My aim is (at least) three-fold.
1. Make it fit with a Pathfinder flavor of rules "upgrade".
2. Improve on the shortcomings of the original rules in the EPH.
3. Keep things compatible with the (non-OGL) expansion books for D&D 3.5."
#3 is fine; your version is compatible enough for my tastes.
As for #1, I don't find your elan any more "Pathfinder-y" than the original. That's a matter of taste, I guess.
For #2, it sounds like your main criticisms of the 3.5 version are:
- You should be able to become an elan without having to start again at level 1.
- Elan Resilience is too good because it can prevent attacks (as opposed to just healing, say).
- Elans should get the same net +2 bonus that all other PC races do.
Those are valid opinions (even though I may not share them), but why did you change the rest of the elan's powers?
I think I see things a bit differently than some other posters. I personally don't the need to create the "Pathfinder version" of every monster or character race. In fact, I kind of got the impression that the PC races (dwarf, elf, etc.) were beefed up in order to compete with PC races from other products (like elans, whisper gnomes, etc.). So if you improve PC races from other products, it sort of defeats the purpose.
YMMV, of course.
Cheers,
hogarth
"Some of the rules in the EPH were not perfectly suited to PRPGa3, and some of them just needed to be changed because we felt they could have been done better in the first place." -- This is not very specific.
This wasn't actually one of the things I suggested you read. I mentioned "developer notes" -- which referred to the blue sidebar labeled "Developer Notes". In that section, I mentioned:
1. "important in-game suspension of disbelief concerns"
2. "that makes it essentially impossible for a mid- to high-level character in an ongoing campaign to become an Elan without becoming an unsuitable character for the campaign in most cases"
3. "many GMs and players use the Charisma attribute not only to measure force of personality but also appearance (while Elan appearance is unchanged from its Human origins)"
. . . so those were each part of a specific example of a reason things needed to be changed.
"A lot of the detrimental effects of the system on an Elan character are not clearly visible in the numbers, but they exist nonetheless." -- This is not very specific either.
No, that alone isn't very specific. However, it immediately follows these sentences:
"Now consider what happens if a character runs out of power points, and doesn't get to meditate for four hours. Spend one hour meditating, and you've just run over your four hour maximum. This limits the benefits of not requiring sleep, food, or drink, but (perhaps more importantly in the general case) it also serves to limit how much a psionic character might want to use psionic powers, giving him or her strong motivations to avoid spending power points too quickly -- thus effectively limiting an Elan's power in the game under many circumstances."
Since I placed it in a separate paragraph from those sentences, I guess it's possible you just didn't notice the context.
"With the removal of the ability to prevent damage, in exchange for an ability to meditate to recover damage after the fact, I think the balance of power is definitely in favor of the EPH version -- which is as I intended, because I believe that for an Elan Psion the power granted by Resilience was a bit much." -- O.K., here's something concrete. I can see the opinion that preventing damage is too powerful, although I haven't found it to be so in practice; I've found it to be almost always more useful to use power points on (a) manifesting powers, or (b) getting a +4 racial bonus on saves.
At middling to high levels, the ability to prevent so much damage in combat has the potential to turn what amounts to a spellcaster class (assuming your Elan character is a Psion, for instance) into a front-line fighter that can often outdo actual Fighters, Paladins, and Rangers.
As for #1, I don't find your elan any more "Pathfinder-y" than the original. That's a matter of taste, I guess.
The idea there was to modify mostly by changing things that do not damage continuity of concept and avoid eliminating abilities altogether. This made for a particularly interesting challenge, considering that the Elan in the EHP are, in some ways, too powerful even to balance out with Pathfinder-upgraded core races.
Elans should get the same net +2 bonus that all other PC races do.
That wasn't actually a specific design goal at all. It just worked out that way.
why did you change the rest of the elan's powers?
Please list specific items you don't already understand, and I'll be happy to address them individually. At the moment, though, I'm beginning to feel like I've done too much typing already on this subject (I need to get back to work-related typing soon), and don't want to try justifying every sentence I wrote one at a time in the hopes that I cover everything you want covered.
I personally don't the need to create the "Pathfinder version" of every monster or character race.
Nor do I, necessarily. There are some improvements that could be made to some of the rules in the EPH, however, and I think the examples in PRPGa3 of rules changes offer some excellent ideas for how to make some of those improvements.
In fact, I kind of got the impression that the PC races (dwarf, elf, etc.) were beefed up in order to compete with PC races from other products (like elans, whisper gnomes, etc.).
Under certain circumstances, I think the Elan could still be extremely unbalancing, even compared against the "upgraded" PRPGa3 core races. That's one of the reasons I took on the task of changing the Elan race -- to tone it down in those cases without seriously damaging the race for other purposes.
So if you improve PC races from other products, it sort of defeats the purpose.
I guess it depends on how you're "improving" them. If you improve them by cutting down some unbalancing effects and making suspension of disbelief easier to maintain, that doesn't defeat the purpose at all. If, on the other hand, you just load up the Elan race with a bunch of extra superpowers, that would certainly defeat the purpose -- which is why I didn't do that.