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Soo... Demon lords. As far as memory serves me, following did appear in D&D books at some point:
Nocticula (ruler of 72nd layer)
Abraxas (ruler of 17th layer)
Shax (vestige in ToB)
Haagenti (lord of 578th layer)
Jubilex (layer 222, baby !)
Socothbenoth (ruler of 597 layer)
And I am curious...are they WotC property ? Or, in case of public domain names (drawn from mythology), will they be akin to their image so far portrayed in D&D ? And the other names, where do they come from ? And will Jubilex, my fave demon lord, still be a slimy piece of goo ? :)
"Juiblex" is property of WotC; don't think you'll see him. A slime lord called "Jubilex" would probably close enough to be considered copyright infringement.
The name "Abraxas" is not proprietary; Sanatana had an album with that title, for example.
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"Juiblex" is property of WotC; don't think you'll see him. A slime lord called "Jubilex" would probably close enough to be considered copyright infringement.
The name "Abraxas" is not proprietary; Sanatana had an album with that title, for example.
Jubilex is open content, thanks to the ToH.
"Juiblex" is property of WotC; don't think you'll see him. A slime lord called "Jubilex" would probably close enough to be considered copyright infringement.
The name "Abraxas" is not proprietary; Sanatana had an album with that title, for example.
Jubilex is open content, thanks to the ToH.
Well, the "Faceless Lord" is open content.
TSR and WotC used both "Jubilex" and "Juiblex" over the years. However, Jubilex, "The Faceless Lord", has also been the Tome of Horrors for years, which is OGL. The Tome contains many creatures originally by TSR that, like Juiblex, hadn't been updated to Third Edition D&D when the Tome came out. Necromancer got a special license from Wizards to publish those and indicated the creator and copyright holder for each individual creature. For Jubilex it says:
Credit
Jubilex originally appeared in the First Edition Monster Manual (© TSR/Wizards of the Coast, 1977) and is used by permission. Jubilex is called J-u-i-b-le-x in the Monster Manual (notice the different spelling).
Copyright Notice
Author Scott Greene, based on original material by Gary Gygax.
"Juiblex" is property of WotC; don't think you'll see him. A slime lord called "Jubilex" would probably close enough to be considered copyright infringement.
The name "Abraxas" is not proprietary; Sanatana had an album with that title, for example.
There has already been a WotC-independent adventure that used the name "Jubilex" as an unlicensed knock-off of Juiblex. I forget the name of the adventure and its publisher.
Abraxas is not WotC's property. It was a godlike entity revered by the Gnostics during the Middle Ages. Herman Hesse featured references to it prominently in his philosophical novel "Demian", and Santana used it as the nameof an album.
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Jubilex always sort of stuck out for me. Demogorgon was cool. Orcus was way cool. Yeenoghu was cool. Jubilex, meh.
Then they added Zuggtmoy, the Demon Queen of Fungus, and between her and Jubilex I began to wonder if they were getting their ideas for Demon Lords after cleaning out the tray under the fridge...
Fear me! I am Wurplefrunt, Demon Lord of Stale Smelly Water and this is my bride, Fwooshroona, Demon Queen of Dead Bugs!
The name "Abraxas" is not proprietary; Sanatana had an album with that title, for example.
Abraxas is not WotC's property. Santana used it as the name of an album.
Yeah, like I said.
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Soo... Demon lords.
This is one of my favorite games!!! One of the COOLEST things about D&D/RPG monsters is that so so so so sooooo much of it is rooted in obscure real-world myth and pulp fiction. It actually seems rarer to find original monsters and deities then to find ones not steeped in legend or folklore. (For more on this, totally check out the Monster Ecologies book.)
Okay, so going down the list.
Nocticula: Starting with the vaguest one first. Nocticula is best known from her mention in the original Monster Manual II and detailed in Green Ronin's Armies of the Abyss and Book of Fiends. However, there's evidence of this also being the name of the Queen of the Night, a variation of Diana of the Moon or Hecate (Hekate) from Greek myth and some Wiccan beliefs. Sketchier sources also call her Herodiade. I'm going to have to pick Erik's brain about this gal when he's back in town. I'll post more as I investigate.
Abraxas: A fascinating and mysterious character The figure of Abraxas and the name appears on several ancient Greek stones and might be the source of the magic word "abracadabra". You can read more about it on the Wikipedia page. Neat stuff!
Shax: Marquis Shax is one of the 72 demons detailed in the Lesser Key of Solomon.
Haagenti: President Haagenti also comes from the Lesser Key of Solomon. If you're not familiar with this book of "real world" demonology, St. Wikipedia again has a good primer. You might be surprised who all is in there.
Jubilex: Along with Pazuzu, Orcus, and (remarkably) Fraz-Urb'Luu, the Faceless Lord Jubilex is open content via The Tome of Horrors. While certain demon lords steeped in D&D or Greyhawk lore just don't fit in Golarion (like Fraz), when we were looking for a demon lord of slimes and pudding we decided that it's way more fun to employ an old friend rather then reinvent the wheel with some half-cocked homage. We love you Clark!
Socothbenoth: My personal fav! From the King James Bible, 2 Kings 17:29 to 17:31:
"Howbeit every nation made gods of their own, and put [them] in the houses of the high places which the Samaritans had made, every nation in their cities wherein they dwelt. And the men of Babylon made Succothbenoth, and the men of Cuth made Nergal, and the men of Hamath made Ashima, And the Avites made Nibhaz and Tartak, and the Sepharvites burnt their children in fire to Adrammelech and Anammelech, the gods of Sepharvaim."
So yeah, there it is. Succothbenoth, from The Bible. You might recognize some other familiar names in there too.
And there you go. Hard to copyright stuff that's been around longer then copyright laws, as is the case with so many RPG deities. The strength of this is that these names, by virtue of their age and connotations, are surrounded by mysticism and mystery. Kind of exactly what you want to draw upon when you're describing fictional deities--benevolent and demonic alike.
Cool stuff, Wes! But which book of the Bible is the quote from?
I believe it is from the Second Book of Kings.
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And I am curious...are they WotC property ? Or, in case of public domain names (drawn from mythology), will they be akin to their image so far portrayed in D&D ? And the other names, where do they come from ? And will Jubilex, my fave demon lord, still be a slimy piece of goo ? :)
Just call him Abhoth (the source of Uncleaness) or Ubbo-Sathla and give him similar stats (from a multitude of 3.0/3.5 sourcebooks). As it stands right now I use a variety of Cthuloid deities in my FR campaign - the serve as alternate versions of demon lords, or as avatars of various gods.
Pathfinder has already incorporated some HPL stuff, why not have them do a few write ups on some HPL deities which are similar if not better than the D&D standards (I will miss Demogorgon though).
It is unfortunate that by merely owning the license that they get all the cool stuff historically associated with D&D, only to just **** on it and resent it like hell. Would be nice if Mind Flayers and Beholders were public domain - wotc had the cash to buy the branding which they 100% were incapable of creating on their own. I'm still trying to think of something they created in the last eight years which will have the same sustain and name recognition as a Demogorgon or Orcus, or even an Owlbear.
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And there you go. Hard to copyright stuff that's been around longer then copyright laws, as is the case with so many RPG deities. The strength of this is that these names, by virtue of their age and connotations, are surrounded by mysticism and mystery. Kind of exactly what you want to draw upon when you're describing fictional deities--benevolent and demonic alike.
I wish Clark had put Demorgorgon in the ToH, as it stands the name is derived from a Greek term, but it would be a stretch to use that name and come up with that Gary/TSR envisioned for the Prince of Demons. So he becomes off limits, even with a historical/lore precedent tied to "Demogorgon".
At least you guys gave him a good send off.
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Cool stuff, Wes! But which book of the Bible is the quote from?I believe it is from the Second Book of Kings.
True! And appended above.
Pathfinder has already incorporated some HPL stuff, why not have them do a few write ups on some HPL deities which are similar if not better than the D&D standards (I will miss Demogorgon though).
Something like that might be in the cards for the far future, but really, it's been done. While we don't want to add anything unique to Earth to Golarion (like Cthulhu himself kind of is), we have less of a problem adding references to more pervasive powers (like Azathoth). Leng, for example, exists somewhere out on the planes, and Earth probably spins somewhere out there on the Material Planes, but there's no reason something that lives on Earth would make it to Golarion.
At the end of the day, though, be it Lovecraft's Elder Gods or Demogorgon, they've been done. If you want to add Yog-Sothoth to your game there's plenty of resources for that. If you want to add Demogorgon to your game, there's tons on him too (James could probably recommend a few particularly insightful works). But these guys come with decades of baggage. Sure, we could legally throw Orcus into Golarion, but why? To tie him to years of Greyhawk, Planescape, even FR lore? Meh, not that interested. We're not trying to be disrespectful--lord knows love for D&D's demons runs strong in this house--but we'd rather do our own thing under our own power, or cherry pick some of our favorites and write them the stories they deserve. And it turns out, some folks around here have some real chops when it comes to detailing beings of unredeemable evil.
Creative Director
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As much as Wes loves demon lords... I love them more! And to get Ubbo-Sathla and Abhoth out of the way... those were actually created by Clark Ashton Smith, i believe, not Lovecraft, and as a result they aren't necessarily in the public domain like Lovecraft's stuff (since Clark Ashton lived a lot longer than Lovecraft...)
Wes is right, though; the vast majority of demon lords are based on real-world myth, and several others are open content thanks to the Tome of Horrors (the revised version is the one that gives us the name Jubilex... which is spelled differently than the WotC version but I suspect that's more of a common typo that just got grandfathered in than anything else).
The demon lords of Golarion is a combination of mythological creatures, open creatures, and brand-new made up creatures. In fact... that's a GREAT topic for a blog post. I'll go write it up right now and it'll go live tomorrow!
While much has been written hereabout regarding the demon lords I more interested in your treatment of the devils. Especially since almost all of the archdevils are from real world myth.
So how about it: who are Asmodeus' chief lieutenants in Pathfinder mythos?
As much as Wes loves demon lords... I love them more!
It's true. That's why I get to keep my soul. Neener neener. :P
While much has been written hereabout regarding the demon lords I more interested in your treatment of the devils. Especially since almost all of the archdevils are from real world myth.
Hum... we could go into here... or we could write a 64 page book to the topic. Which would you prefer?
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Creative Director
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While much has been written hereabout regarding the demon lords I more interested in your treatment of the devils. Especially since almost all of the archdevils are from real world myth.
So how about it: who are Asmodeus' chief lieutenants in Pathfinder mythos?
We talk a bit about the eight archlords of Hell in the hardcover too, but there's a LOT less to say about them than the demon lords simply because there are more demon lords than archdevils.
But as Wes hinted... some day we'll be saying a LOT more about all of the fiends of Golarion.
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Pathfinder has already incorporated some HPL stuff, why not have them do a few write ups on some HPL deities which are similar if not better than the D&D standards (I will miss Demogorgon though).Something like that might be in the cards for the far future, but really, it's been done. While we don't want to add anything unique to Earth to Golarion (like Cthulhu himself kind of is), we have less of a problem adding references to more pervasive powers (like Azathoth). Leng, for example, exists somewhere out on the planes, and Earth probably spins somewhere out there on the Material Planes, but there's no reason something that lives on Earth would make it to Golarion.
At the end of the day, though, be it Lovecraft's Elder Gods or Demogorgon, they've been done. If you want to add Yog-Sothoth to your game there's plenty of resources for that. If you want to add Demogorgon to your game, there's tons on him too (James could probably recommend a few particularly insightful works). But these guys come with decades of baggage. Sure, we could legally throw Orcus into Golarion, but why? To tie him to years of Greyhawk, Planescape, even FR lore? Meh, not that interested. We're not trying to be disrespectful--lord knows love for D&D's demons runs strong in this house--but we'd rather do our own thing under our own power, or cherry pick some of our favorites and write them the stories they deserve. And it turns out, some folks around here have some real chops when it comes to detailing beings of unredeemable evil.
What I was trying to say is this - it would have been nice to port over some of the legacy which has been D&D since in my opinion this is where the legacy will confine. I wish you guys officially owned Demorgorgon as he stands (well after the Savage Tide...you guys do) but you don't.
Actually I am 100% pleased with the direction and attitude you guys have taken with the whole fiendish/demon/devil issue. In many respects I do see a continuation in what would be considered the spirit of the "Lovecraft circle" with alot of the new work you guys have done with your creatures and Gods if PF. "Lovecraft circle" going back to HPL, CAS, Robert E Howard, et al.
That doesn't mean everything you guys touch turn into a slobbering mass of tentacles or is a knock off of HPL's work... it is more along the lines of the passion and love those guys put into their creations. The creative work put into PF (Gods and monsters) stands on it's own but I also see it as a continuation of a genre laid out a long time ago.
All that being said I have no doubts that if new infernal iconics are ever going to show up in D&D, that they are going to show up here - under this roof.
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As much as Wes loves demon lords... I love them more! And to get Ubbo-Sathla and Abhoth out of the way... those were actually created by Clark Ashton Smith, i believe, not Lovecraft, and as a result they aren't necessarily in the public domain like Lovecraft's stuff (since Clark Ashton lived a lot longer than Lovecraft...)
Yeah, they are both CAS - probably were a big influence on the creation of Jubilex.
Hum... we could go into here... or we could write a 64 page book to the topic. Which would you prefer?
Ummm....both?
Seriously, there has to be a fairly large number of dukes and consorts that would also be interesting reading.
In this vein, heck out the Princes of Hell series in Kobold Quarterly - quality stuff.
James wrote the last one, Jezebel, in KQ 5. Her origin story creeped me out. Well worth the price of admission just for that article.
Abraxas is not WotC's property. Santana used it as the name of an album.Yeah, like I said.
Hey, don't misquote me! At least put ellipses ["..."] in between the sentences to show I said other stuff in between.
Hey, don't misquote me! At least put ellipses ["..."] in between the sentences to show I said other stuff in between.
You're right, ellipsis were indeed needed there (I know what they are, btw). But by the same token, it's not right to misquote someone (me) and not even give a footnote reference!
... But by the same token, it's not right to misquote someone (me) and not even give a footnote reference!I quoted you correctly, including your misspelling of Santana's name, and I credited you for it. Look at the top of my first post in this thread.
But as Wes hinted... some day we'll be saying a LOT more about all of the fiends of Golarion.
*drool*
*drool*
But as Wes hinted... some day we'll be saying a LOT more about all of the fiends of Golarion.
Except for Todd. Todd can't play. Nah.
Except for Todd. Todd can't play. Nah.
Bah! *dispatches a flock of astradaemons after Wes*
But on a more serious level, :) I really like what you guys have done with Golarion's stable of demon lords. Lamashtu's development has honestly made me not miss having to exclude Demogorgon.
Damn. Yet again an immense monster that tends to crush those who work in close proximity to the target is after Wes. I need to re-up my kaiju insurance, I guess.
What can I say? I'm popular.
I've always thought it silly that devils and demons each have their own tongue, but daemons have to crib from others to speak.
Speaking of which, does anyone else out there still use "Mabrahoring" instead of "Infernal" for the language of the Hells?
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I've always thought it silly that devils and demons each have their own tongue, but daemons have to crib from others to speak.Speaking of which, does anyone else out there still use "Mabrahoring" instead of "Infernal" for the language of the Hells?
Only us Zelazny fans.
The Celestials/Eladrin/ShinyHappyPeople have it worse. Everyone north of Limbo speaks Celestial. It's, something-ism! Ah'm gonna write an angry letter!
Probably an 'r,' but it'll be a really pissed-off 'r.'
Also, my Neutral Evil Wizard wants an Improved Familiar that isn't a Quasit or an Imp. Some sort of Entoloth, a flying bug-like creature that has pretty much the same powers, but isn't a Demon or Devil...
Little tiny chaotic Slaadkin and lawful Unidrones or Formian Larvae could be fun as Improved Familiars, also.
My one desire for this book is the inclusion of a Neutral Evil fiendish language. I've always thought it silly that devils and demons each have their own tongue, but daemons have to crib from others to speak.
Oddly enough, I have mixed feelings on this. In 3e D&D it was retarded to only have two fiendish languages and to make the 'loths use Abyssal or Infernal when they were the oldest race of fiends out there. Being the first of the major fiend races, it makes sense for them to have a language of their own, and maybe even have it be a root or contributing tongue to that of the other fiends. It's predicated on them being the oldest however.
For Golarion's daemons... good question. They aren't the 'loths, and so any differences in their history and their very nature compared to the 'loths should influence if they have their own language or not, and if so if it's influnced by anything else. The campaign setting talks a bit about the answer to that nature, but as of yet I'm not firmly decided on the topic [assuming it's my choice to make, which it might not be since I'm freelancing on this stuff and editorial decisions may change things].
However I would lean towards yes, giving them their own language. And same thing with the celestials, giving any major and independant celestial race its own language (not even necessarily in line with alignment breaks, but different outsider races unless they share a common origin should have different racial languages in my opinion).
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Todd, I am with you on that point. The major outsiders should have their own language unless they are descendants from the same origin. In my view, language is culture, and all the major outsiders should have their own look & feel, which sets them apart from one another. Language is just one part of that culture.
I think what makes loths/daemons interesting is that they are not devils or demons and are not descendants of those two races. They are different, and they have their own goals and agendas with a clear identifiable neutral slant. In between law/tyranny and chaos/destruction there is a lot of room to play.
Also, my Neutral Evil Wizard wants an Improved Familiar that isn't a Quasit or an Imp. Some sort of Entoloth, a flying bug-like creature that has pretty much the same powers, but isn't a Demon or Devil...Little tiny chaotic Slaadkin and lawful Unidrones or Formian Larvae could be fun as Improved Familiars, also.
I had a tiefling rogue/wild mage who had a chaos imp (from Planes of Chaos) familiar that took the form of a fairy dragon. It enjoyed scaring the hell out of people by phrasing too many statements with "I wish..."
Really, unless there are an incredible amount of comings and goings between the planes, each outer plane should have its own common tongue, just as the elemental planes do. But then, that's a lot of languages for the conjurers and planar travelers to learn. I'm sure that's why we've simplified down to Abyssal, Infernal, and Celestial.
And what, by the way, do they speak in Mechanus, or in Limbo? Do you speak Mechanical? Or Limbonese?
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Really, unless there are an incredible amount of comings and goings between the planes, each outer plane should have its own common tongue, just as the elemental planes do. But then, that's a lot of languages for the conjurers and planar travelers to learn. I'm sure that's why we've simplified down to Abyssal, Infernal, and Celestial.
And what, by the way, do they speak in Mechanus, or in Limbo? Do you speak Mechanical? Or Limbonese?
Mechanus = Binary
Limbo = Esperanto.
Speaking of which, does anyone else out there still use "Mabrahoring" instead of "Infernal" for the language of the Hells?Only us Zelazny fans.
But Dilvish, who was damned, came back, and made their blood run cold."
But the name "Mabrahoring" was also co-opted for AD&D, in the Dragon magazine article "The Politics of Hell."
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At the end of the day, though, be it Lovecraft's Elder Gods or Demogorgon, they've been done. If you want to add Yog-Sothoth to your game there's plenty of resources for that. If you want to add Demogorgon to your game, there's tons on him too (James could probably recommend a few particularly insightful works). But these guys come with decades of baggage. Sure, we could legally throw Orcus into Golarion, but why? To tie him to years of Greyhawk, Planescape, even FR lore? Meh, not that interested. We're not trying to be disrespectful--lord knows love for D&D's demons runs strong in this house--but we'd rather do our own thing under our own power, or cherry pick some of our favorites and write them the stories they deserve. And it turns out, some folks around here have some real chops when it comes to detailing beings of unredeemable evil.
Ah well, guess I won't be seeing a Demogorgon Rune anytime in the future. But with Golarion's still-slim deific ranks, and inspired by the real-world mythology of Demogorgon, I think I will finally hunker down and make Big D a full-on deity (Father of Gods - awesome!).
