Yep... Arlyn's skills went up by ONE HUNDRED AND TWO points, with no change in DCs.
I don't get this math. A rogue can get a maximum of 75 class skill (25 skills * 3) bonus points and that's if he takes ranks in every single skill (including 3 craft skills and 3 profession skills). That assumes she takes 1 rank in every skill which means at 3rd level she has 1 rank in every class skill. Now the critical skills for the class are 2 ranks behind what they should be. Skills that you don't keep maxed out quickly become worthless.
Optimizing a character to maximize class skill bonuses is what my grandfather would call penny wise and pound foolish. Sure the net effect looks great on paper but the effect is sub par.
What character and level are you talking about? I am quite curious how you got 102 additional points. Maybe because she didn't have to spend ranks on Spot, Search, and Listen?
Incidentally while Wizards class skills have been merged they benefit hugely from the skill system changes. They get the same class skill bonus the rogue gets which is good for spreading around knowledge skills. Also, the skill system change makes it much more viable for them to spend cross class skill ranks on perception, stealth, or acrobatics.
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Another side effect of skill merging is that the system loses diversity. A blind character would now only receive a penalty to Perception checks, and a perfectly silent monster (such as anything incorporeal) would only have a bonus to Stealth checks. That means that a blind character can perceive a monster even if said monster is odorless, tasteless, silent, and incorporeal.
While a single Stealth and Perception check does make for an easier, faster game, it's less accurate. Keep accuracy in 3.5 and keep easier in 4.0.
In the specific case of perception, the skill is already broken up between the five senses and search, so a blind character would not gain a penalty to all perception checks, he would be unable to make sight based perception checks. As a matter of fact, the PRPG rules actually add diversity to the old Spot/Listen by simply printing rules for touch/taste/smell based perception.
In the broad case of all of the skills, I think that the PRPG has added diversity, rather than taken it away. Now my 12th level fighter with 12 charisma can have a +13 bonus to Diplomacy, as compared to +8 in the 3.5 rules. In other words, I can build a better Roy in the PRPG rules. This also applies to a lot of other character concepts that, while possible in 3.5, where definitely sub-optimal choices. A cleric of Garl Glittergold can actually have a good Appraise check. A Cleric of Irori can spread their skill points between the knowledge skills and have a respectable modifier in each. A character who isn't a rogue can be an effective lock opener, without resorting smashing it with their war hammer.
A wizard still has 2 skill points per level. Because NONE of their class skills were merged, their overall skill levels will remain unchanged.
No, Concentration and Decipher Script were both folded into other skills (Concentration into Spellcraft, Decipher Script into Linguistics with Forgery and Speak Languages), reducing the Wizard skill list by 2 there.
However Wizards in Pathfinder gain Appraise (due to the synergy with Identify) and Fly as new skills, so their Net number of skills is changed, though they do not have exactly the same skills.
she is 6th lvl 1st lvl fighter 5th lvl Noble class(yes the NPC class)
Then this makes even less sense. I assume you mean a 5th level Aristocrat? There is no "Noble" class. Aristocrats get even fewer class skills than Rogues.
Hello Hume,
Yes, this is one of the issues with the Pathfinder RPG skill system, though your player's case was on the extreme side. In general, the current skill system in Pathfinder works well. Nevertheless, if you are interested in what I think is a better system that mostly eliminates this problem, improves backward compatibility with 3.5E, yet maintains simplicity, I tried creating one and posted it here:
and here
Enjoy!
well i told my players that we are moving to PF when beta comes out so one of the has looked it over and changed over his PC and had some thoughts thought i would post them, i told him that beta may change some things but skills is not one of them.
I converted Arlyn to Pathfinder. Almost nothing changed. Combat Expertise isn't as good, and she gets an extra 4 hp for favoured class... not much. Until I did skills.
Arlyn ended up with *much* higher skills than before. I'll summarize at the end.
Pathfinder made two major changes to skills, each of which results in higher overall skill levels and less diversity. I address each below.
1) Reducing the number of skills.
So now Stealth covers Hide and Move Silently, among other changes. By reducing the number of skills while keeping the same number of skill points, characters end up with a lot higher skills... if the ones they were choosing are the ones that collapsed.
A rogue still has 8 skill points per level. If they had chosen Disable Device, Open Lock, Hide, Move Silently, Listen, Spot, Balance, and Tumble as their maxed-out skills in 3.5, they'd use all their points. Now they're only using half (Disable Device, Stealth, Perception, Acrobatics), leaving them with 4 points per level leftover.
A wizard still has 2 skill points per level. Because NONE of their class skills were merged, their overall skill levels will remain unchanged.
In fact, the classes that have the fewest skill points will find they won't have any points gained after conversion, while those with the most skill points will have a large number of extra points to spend.
Another side effect of skill merging is that the system loses diversity. A blind character would now only receive a penalty to Perception checks, and a perfectly silent monster (such as anything incorporeal) would only have a bonus to Stealth checks. That means that a blind character can perceive a monster even if said monster is odorless, tasteless, silent, and incorporeal.
While a single Stealth and...
I think I get it. Were the points gained mostly in non-class skills?
The character (at level one) had one rank in twenty different class skills. This effectively becomes four ranks in twenty different class skills, a net gain of 60 ranks.
But the point is that the difference between a +1 modifier and a +4 modifier just isn't a big deal (in my experience).
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I think I get it. Were the points gained mostly in non-class skills?The character (at level one) had one rank in twenty different class skills. This effectively becomes four ranks in twenty different class skills, a net gain of 60 ranks.
But you only keep 1/4 of your first-level skill points from pre-conversion (there's no multiplier). So it becomes four ranks in five different class skills, a net gain of zero ranks.
But you only keep 1/4 of your first-level skill points from pre-conversion (there's no multiplier). So it becomes four ranks in five different class skills, a net gain of zero ranks.I think I get it. Were the points gained mostly in non-class skills?The character (at level one) had one rank in twenty different class skills. This effectively becomes four ranks in twenty different class skills, a net gain of 60 ranks.
Good point. It's not clear whether he removed the "x4" skill points at level 1 in his conversion.
No there is a noble NPC class, maybe not in books you have access to, its in the dragonlance CMS book, but it is close to Aristocrat but not the same.
Then I have no clue. Does this class have more skill ranks than the rogue? You need to share more details.
The differences between 3.5 and Pathfinder are simple:
1) If you maxed ranks, no difference unless your skills got merged, then you get extra points, and can diversify a good deal more.
2) If you split up your points, you will get great benefits from the +3 bonus to class skills, and possibly the lack of cross-class penalty. You simply will not be able to do it at first level. As of second level (given the same # of skill points) you can be equivalent to putting half points in all your skills, and by 4th you can be equivalent to putting one point in each, with Much higher bonuses.
The only detraction to diversity is at first or second level really. The +3 bonus to class vs. non-class is quickly outstripped by leveling w/out the penalty to cross-class (i.e. a 10th level fighter with 10 ranks in Stealth is pretty close to a 10th level Rogue with 10 ranks in stealth and a +3 class bonus).
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she removed the 4x skill points. The extra points came from the following places:
1) 66 points from the new +3 bonus to each class skill (22 class skills)
2) -28 points from reduction of 4x to 1x at 1st level
3) 7 points from merged skills
4) 8 points from changes to class build
5) 23 points from new class ability from changes to class build
6) 1 point that I'd forgotten to spend on 3.5 Arlyn
7) Remainder from ability score bonuses to new skills
To me, the important details are still missing. What's the character's Int? How many skills does the Noble class get at each level? What skills are class skills for the Noble? What class was the first level?
And finally, what are the skills totals under 3.5 and Pathfinder?
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she removed the 4x skill points. The extra points came from the following places:
1) 66 points from the new +3 bonus to each class skill (22 class skills)
2) -28 points from reduction of 4x to 1x at 1st level
3) 7 points from merged skills
4) 8 points from changes to class build
5) 23 points from new class ability from changes to class build
6) 1 point that I'd forgotten to spend on 3.5 Arlyn
7) Remainder from ability score bonuses to new skillsOf the 102 points, 32 don't really count (due to class rebuild, not rules change). So... 70. Arlyn lost 28 points from going x4 to x1 at 1st-level, but gained 66 points from the +3 class skill bonus to each of her 22 skills. She gained 7 points from merging skills, and gained a bunch (don't want to do the math) from stat bonuses to skills she didn't have before (taken because of extra skill points left over due to previous changes).
You only get +3 if you've put a rank in it. As a 1st level Rogue with 18 Int only has 12 points to spend, where are you getting 22 points to distribute?
she removed the 4x skill points. The extra points came from the following places:
1) 66 points from the new +3 bonus to each class skill (22 class skills)
2) -28 points from reduction of 4x to 1x at 1st level
3) 7 points from merged skills
4) 8 points from changes to class build
5) 23 points from new class ability from changes to class build
6) 1 point that I'd forgotten to spend on 3.5 Arlyn
7) Remainder from ability score bonuses to new skillsOf the 102 points, 32 don't really count (due to class rebuild, not rules change). So... 70. Arlyn lost 28 points from going x4 to x1 at 1st-level, but gained 66 points from the +3 class skill bonus to each of her 22 skills. She gained 7 points from merging skills, and gained a bunch (don't want to do the math) from stat bonuses to skills she didn't have before (taken because of extra skill points left over due to previous changes).
So what I see is 66 points minus 28 points or 38 points gained. From the change to the skill system +7 points for the skill consolidation. The net gain is 45 points, the rest... I'm not entirely sure what they are from. This is a corner case though, most players don't spread their skill points over 22 skills.
My feeling on this is it just doesn't matter, mostly because it's far from an optimal way to spend skill ranks. The benefits you gain from the net gain of skill points is far outweighed by the fact that you are not particularly good at any single skill. Sort of a jack of all trades, master of none. You can climb, but not well, you know about animals, but not much, etc. It's an interesting character concept but it doesn't really break anything.
You only get +3 if you've put a rank in it. As a 1st level Rogue with 18 Int only has 12 points to spend, where are you getting 22 points to distribute?
He mentioned above, it's a 6th level character. The ranks were spent over time.