Alas 4E I knew you well.


4th Edition

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The 4E group I have been playing with has decided to go back to running 3.5E.

My existing group, which has always been 3.5E or an older edition has flatly refused, to a man, to move to 4E. We ran one session of it and they weren't excited about it. It was "fun" but not their thing (not sure I understand that entirely).

All of the other D&D games advertising for players at my gaming store are 3.5.

I'm really looking forward for DDI getting off the ground so I can find some people to play 4E with. Might even try a PBP game or something.

Anyone else having any trouble finding a 4E group? Or did your existing group just switch over? Advice??

I'm going to advertise for a group again and see what happens...any other thoughts on getting a group? Anyone know a web site where people might advertise for players or a DM?


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

My group switched over quite happily. There are other groups in this area that don't show an interest in switching, though I don't know of any groups around here that are "split" in their opinions. (Then again, I don't know of that many gaming groups here in middle Tennessee at all...)

If you're looking for advice on getting your friends to consider playing, that's a hard one. This edition change has created a lot of pretty entrenched attitudes on both sides. If you really want to try, though, I'd recommend creating 4E characters in front of them every once in a while. There's just something about character creation that tends to help foster an interest, and that's true for most gaming systems I've seen. But if people have already made up their minds not to like something, that's not so likely to work. Alternately, you could ask them to let you run one-shot 4E adventures every once in a while, such as on the World-Wide Game Day that they usually hold in November each year.

Or if you're hoping to find a new group - where do you live? Your profile doesn't say, but if you let us know, it's possible someone else on these boards is from the area (or familiar with it) and can give some advice on where in your area you might find a 4E group.


Cintra Bristol wrote:


Or if you're hoping to find a new group - where do you live? Your profile doesn't say, but if you let us know, it's possible someone else on these boards is from the area (or familiar with it) and can give some advice on where in your area you might find a 4E group.

Thanks...

I don't think my existing group is going to switch. Maybe a one-shot now and again. It's not like they've made up their minds not to like it in some prejudicial way - they really don't like it. If they had time to play another game as well, maybe...I know if all I had time for was one game I'd run 3.5 instead of 4E. But I have time for both and would like to run both.

I'm in Missouri. Split my time between Kansas City and the middle of the state :)

Dark Archive

I can't really help you much on finding any 4th ed. fans, even though my gaming group (now of 14! members) is based in Columbia, MO. Nobody in our group is liking any 4th edition stuff that they have seen or played. However, if you are interested in getting in on a Pathfinder game...


We switched over to 4E as soon as it came out (with Keep on the Shadowfell), and I'm having the time of my life. I plan on running the 4E Dungeon Crawl Classics from Goodman Games for my group.

Also, the usual DM has decided to convert the Age of Worms campaign path to 4E - we were at 12th level. I recently converted my 12th level warblade to a 12th level fighter (swordmaster paragon path), and he's way more awesome. Looking forward to snuffing Kyuss.

I wouldnt worry about finding a 4E group, it's going to be the supported edition for the next decade, and will indeed grow. After October, when tpp's start releasing 4E GSL material there will be alot more 4E stuff on the shelves and more people are going to pick it up.


kikai13 wrote:
I can't really help you much on finding any 4th ed. fans, even though my gaming group (now of 14! members) is based in Columbia, MO. Nobody in our group is liking any 4th edition stuff that they have seen or played. However, if you are interested in getting in on a Pathfinder game...

Yeah not much on 4E in the area. I sometimes wonder whether the edition will have the staying power of previous editions.

I'm certainly looking forward to Pathfinder. I started Seven Swords of Sin at Valhalla's Gate with my 3.5E group. Was a lot of fun. I'm looking forward to the campaign setting.

How often does your group play?


xredjasonx wrote:


I wouldnt worry about finding a 4E group, it's going to be the supported edition for the next decade, and will indeed grow. After October, when tpp's start releasing 4E GSL material there will be alot more 4E stuff on the shelves and more people are going to pick it up.

Probably. Seems like a lot of people are picking it up and not caring for it though. Seems like people like to stick with one system, for some reason. I personally feel 3.5E is superior in terms of D&D, so I have a certain amount of understanding for people who don't want to make the switch, but I like to play more than one system and I want to continue with 4E.

But I suspect more groups will emerge over time and I will be able to find one. Otherwise, if DDI gets up and going... :)


Can't imagin why I'm giving some advice, seeing as how I dislike 4e, but two best things to do is

1. Find a game to join instead of trying to start a game yourself. That way you get to know people who are into it. I did the same for 3e in 2001.

2. If you have the time run two games, one 3e the other 4e. Most of the gamers I know are open to at lest trying a game. Heck I'd play a 4e if there wasn't anything else to do, I just wouldn't run it or buy any of the books. But that way you get what you want and the players get what they want, maybe they'll warm up to it, but don't hold your breath you might get hurt.

In any case hope it helps, or even better you explore other game systems.

TTFN Dre


Andre Caceres wrote:


In any case hope it helps, or even better you explore other game systems.

TTFN Dre

Thanks Andre. I've actually got my group willing to play a few sessions of Warhammer RPG. I think they'll like that one.

Dark Archive

Although there is a bit of flux at the current time, due to the group getting pretty big, we do play every Thursday like clockwork. Typically we play from about 3pm until 11 or so. We are currently playing two different games simultaneously, so you can kinda take your pick.


kikai13 wrote:
Although there is a bit of flux at the current time, due to the group getting pretty big, we do play every Thursday like clockwork. Typically we play from about 3pm until 11 or so. We are currently playing two different games simultaneously, so you can kinda take your pick.

Ah...you guys start too early for me. I split my work time between Boonville/Columbia and Kansas City. Most week days I wouldn't be available until 6 or 7.

Sounds cool, though. I like groups that play long sessions like that!

Liberty's Edge

(checks the status of the anti-4e ninja propaganda teams...missouri, check...) just kidding. i feel for you man, the only place i can play is at the weekly gaming store game. its ok, but the guys running it want to play chess with minis and d20s, no roleplaying at all.

heck, im having trouble just finding a regular group to play anything with. the d&d meetup here in houston has been folded into the board/tabletop game group, so its like 20% rpgers 80% old ladies playing boggle and canasta...


houstonderek wrote:


heck, im having trouble just finding a regular group to play anything with. the d&d meetup here in houston has been folded into the board/tabletop game group, so its like 20% rpgers 80% old ladies playing boggle and canasta...

LOL. Guess I don't have it that bad, then. I'll keep that in mind!

Liberty's Edge

seriously, i've asked my gf if we could move to dallas, there are a TON of gamers there! she wont do it, though, she has a friend up there she loves to death, but the chick is kinda psycho and a drama magnet. darn the luck!


Also, the usual DM has decided to convert the Age of Worms campaign path to 4E - we were at 12th level. I recently converted my 12th level warblade to a 12th level fighter (swordmaster paragon path), and he's way more awesome. Looking forward to snuffing Kyuss.

Just a FYI, expect him to be a solo monster of a level 3 higher than your own.


Steerpike7 wrote:


Ah...you guys start too early for me. I split my work time between Boonville/Columbia and Kansas City. Most week days I wouldn't be available until 6 or 7.

I believe there is a monthly Living FR game in Riverside, KC.

http://www.warhorn.net/rpgkc/

The calendar notes that this month is in Independence.

I've never gamed with this group, so really can't comment on it further. My on again, off again group is Lawrence-based.

Cheers!


In my group, there was a couple of people that wanted to stick with 3.5 but I more or less said, "sure, whose going to DM"?

I've been the DM for my group for the last 5 years and that's only because nobody else wanted the job.

Pathfinder, unfortunately, seems to focus on "giving more options/more subsystems" to players has kinda forgotten that all these options come at the expense of a DM trying to craft an adventure (if the player with the barbarian gets hit by a Con-draining attack, I'm quite positive there's going to be little slowdown but for me as a DM if I'm running say a barbarian orc?)

Frankly, nobody else wants the work and I no longer want to spend as much time on pre-adventure preparation as 3.x requires.


Bleach wrote:


Frankly, nobody else wants the work and I no longer want to spend as much time on pre-adventure preparation as 3.x requires.

Yeah I like that aspect of 4E as well. And I like 4E overall. But you get that simplicity at the expense of some intangibles (and tangibles for that matter) that will never allow 4E to replace or surpass 3.5E in my games. 4E is a cool game but it doesn't 'feel' like the D&D I've been playing all these years and I doubt it ever will. So I'm sticking with 3.5/Pathfinder as my main game, and I want to run a 4E game as well if I can find people to play in it :)


Funny enough, the more we play it, the more it feels like pre 3E D&D among by group. People have alluded to 4E being more of a descendant of BECM and that's a legitimate argument I find (the csomology/world and the alignment system feels WAY closer to BECM than 3E ever did for example)

I think the biggest "feel" difference is that there's way less focusing on the build aspect of the game. Which to our group seems to harken back to the days of 1e/2e where outside of character creation there was less focus on the build.


Bleach wrote:

Funny enough, the more we play it, the more it feels like pre 3E D&D among by group. People have alluded to 4E being more of a descendant of BECM and that's a legitimate argument I find (the csomology/world and the alignment system feels WAY closer to BECM than 3E ever did for example)

I think the biggest "feel" difference is that there's way less focusing on the build aspect of the game. Which to our group seems to harken back to the days of 1e/2e where outside of character creation there was less focus on the build.

I have had this exact reaction, heck even a rules cyclopedia gamer who hated 3E (to the point of not playing with us when we played 3E)is back at our table and loving 4E.

As for the part of the DM, yeah its very nice just having to take 15-30 minutes of prep time instead of the night before to set up the adventure.

The more I Gm 4E, the more I think it was built especially for GMs!


My group made the switch, but I didn't give them much of a choice. >:)

//H


Nahualt wrote:


As for the part of the DM, yeah its very nice just having to take 15-30 minutes of prep time instead of the night before to set up the adventure.

I run 3.5e games all the time with 15 minutes of prep time. Did it last weekend when our normal campaign wasn't ready and the group wanted to run a side 3.5E game. I spent about 15 minutes getting things ready and off we went. It turned out rather well I have to say.

I don't know about the whole 4E being more like 1E/2E in feel. Maybe in terms of less focus on build, as Bleach said above, but to me 4E is the furthest from 1E of any of the subsequent editions. It's different enough that to my group 3.5E feels like our D&D game, whereas the 4E game we were playing was more like a cool new system. That was our take on it.

Nevertheless I maintain that both are fun :)


Steerpike7 wrote:

The 4E group I have been playing with has decided to go back to running 3.5E.

My existing group, which has always been 3.5E or an older edition has flatly refused, to a man, to move to 4E. We ran one session of it and they weren't excited about it. It was "fun" but not their thing (not sure I understand that entirely).

All of the other D&D games advertising for players at my gaming store are 3.5.

I'm really looking forward for DDI getting off the ground so I can find some people to play 4E with. Might even try a PBP game or something.

Anyone else having any trouble finding a 4E group? Or did your existing group just switch over? Advice??

I'm going to advertise for a group again and see what happens...any other thoughts on getting a group? Anyone know a web site where people might advertise for players or a DM?

There are a lot of on-line games using 4th edition on Fantasy Grounds and also a DM-produced ruleset. Go to www.fantasygrounds.com for more information. You'll have to buy the product, but you won't regret it.


I gave 4e a chance but classes still frustrate me. There is no hope for me. However, you may be able to address specific issues with your own players. Sometimes, it is only one or two things that turn people off to a game.

Ask your players what they did not like about 4e. Whatever you do, do not dismiss their criticisms. However absurd they are to you, they are quite real to your players. Then look for ways to overcome those issues.

An argument against that is common is that 4e does not ‘feel’ like D&D. If this one comes up, ask them what they mean by ‘feel’. Different people want different things out of their game. It may be possible to change the ‘feel’ without changing the rule set.


CourtFool wrote:


Ask your players what they did not like about 4e. Whatever you do, do not dismiss their criticisms. However absurd they are to you, they are quite real to your players. Then look for ways to overcome those issues.

Yeah, we've had those discussions.

1) They hate the idea of "martial powers." They think the concept of fighters having these quasi-magical powers is less than desirable.

2) They felt it was too gamist (and more specifically video gamist), with too much of the metagame aspects thrown in your face.

3) They also felt that the classes were too bland because of how the powers work, etc. There wasn't enough character or flavor to the classes.

Those were probably the main gripes. There were a bunch of minor ones.

My answers to those:

1) I told them think of this as a "new" game that is fun. Don't get stuck in the box of thinking of the game in terms of previous D&D editions.

2) I agreed with them on this, but pointed out that a lot of games where the "game" aspects are front and center are still fun.

3) I tend to agree and I was already worried the classes would get boring, so I'm not sure what to say to that one.

I guess the point is, it's not like they think 4E is the worst thing ever, but when they want to play an RPG it doesn't do it for them. I'm not going to try to switch them over; there's no point. They don't like the system, and I think their subjective reasons for not liking it are perfectly legitimate. I would, however, like to scare up a 4E group that does like it so that I can keep playing it as my second choice.


I am putting together an online friday night 4e group using maptools. We are currently looking at a Tiefling Ranger (Archer), Eladrin Paladin, Dragonborn Swordmage, and a Warforged Something (I think Two-Weapon Ranger, but that may have changed). I am also planning on making a NPC human bard using Saric's Bard class from the 4e Wizards forums.

Time planned at this point is 7-11 EST. If you are interested then you can email me at dundjinnmasta at yahoo dot com.


Arcmagik wrote:

I am putting together an online friday night 4e group using maptools. We are currently looking at a Tiefling Ranger (Archer), Eladrin Paladin, Dragonborn Swordmage, and a Warforged Something (I think Two-Weapon Ranger, but that may have changed). I am also planning on making a NPC human bard using Saric's Bard class from the 4e Wizards forums.

Time planned at this point is 7-11 EST. If you are interested then you can email me at dundjinnmasta at yahoo dot com.

Hey, thanks Arcmagik. Let me see how my schedule is going to look - Friday evenings are usually good!


Steerpike7 wrote:
I would, however, like to scare up a 4E group that does like it so that I can keep playing it as my second choice.

Understood. I wish you luck, my friend. It sounds like it is time to find new blood. I found it easier to get non-gamers into less popular games.

Grand Lodge

Arcmagik wrote:

I am putting together an online friday night 4e group using maptools. We are currently looking at a Tiefling Ranger (Archer), Eladrin Paladin, Dragonborn Swordmage, and a Warforged Something (I think Two-Weapon Ranger, but that may have changed). I am also planning on making a NPC human bard using Saric's Bard class from the 4e Wizards forums.

Time planned at this point is 7-11 EST. If you are interested then you can email me at dundjinnmasta at yahoo dot com.

.

I'd be interested as well. Gnome Warlock :).

dagent145 -at- gmail -dot- com


CourtFool wrote:

I gave 4e a chance but classes still frustrate me. There is no hope for me. However, you may be able to address specific issues with your own players. Sometimes, it is only one or two things that turn people off to a game.

Ask your players what they did not like about 4e. Whatever you do, do not dismiss their criticisms. However absurd they are to you, they are quite real to your players. Then look for ways to overcome those issues.

An argument against that is common is that 4e does not ‘feel’ like D&D. If this one comes up, ask them what they mean by ‘feel’. Different people want different things out of their game. It may be possible to change the ‘feel’ without changing the rule set.

I can't believe I'm saying this. But the CourtFool is right.

Sovereign Court

I understand where you are coming from. 4E and personal issues with some of my gaming friends have produced a general indifference that is making getting together for regular D&D games of any edition more difficult. I hope we can get with and get our fire back with some good, regular gaming.

The Exchange

CourtFool wrote:
I gave 4e a chance but classes still frustrate me. There is no hope for me.

You're not alone. I canned my 4e game because classes are bugging me too. My group is going to alternate between Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and a RuneQuest/BRP. I think I am going to limit D&D to organized play only for a while.


crosswiredmind wrote:

You're not alone. I canned my 4e game because classes are bugging me too. My group is going to alternate between Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and a RuneQuest/BRP. I think I am going to limit D&D to organized play only for a while.

Warhammer I like. Never tried RuneQuest but I noticed they have a bunch of Elric stuff, Lankhmar, etc. What's the system like?

The Exchange

Steerpike7 wrote:
Warhammer I like. Never tried RuneQuest but I noticed they have a bunch of Elric stuff, Lankhmar, etc. What's the system like?

Excellent question! I just picked up Chaosium's new Basic Role Playing and it rocks. It distills all the changes that the system has gone through over the past 30 years into one solid volume.

BRP is skill driven. PCs have stats but the core of their abilities lie in their skills. All skills are percentile and they increase with use. PCs start with a background skill set but you can take a PC in whatever direction you want based on the situation in-game. BRP also has "powers" but not in the D&D sense. Powers are the extraordinary abilities a character can posses like magic in a fantasy setting, mutations in a post apocalyptic game, or superpowers for comic book gaming.

There are varying layers of rules complexity. You can use a simple DEX based initiative order or you can use a timing system called strike ranks that was a part of the original RQ rules. Strike rank take the base speed of an action and modifies it depending on your DEX (more missle fire) or DEX and SIZ for melee (yes - an attribute for physical size). Another example of complexity is in the use of hit points. You can use the generic HP pool which is always relatively small since it is based on your stats. Or you can use the pool plus a system of hit points by hit location. Yes, you can get your head lopped off well before your overall HP drop to zero.

Combat is very simulationist with rolls to attack, parry, and dodge. Armor blocks damage. Oh, and parry too much with a weapon and it can break.

Can you tell I love this game? Back in 1982 I played RQ for the first time and never looked back at D&D again until 3e came along.

One final thought - Mongoose RuneQuest is OK but the Chaosium Basic Role Play is better IMHO even though both systems seem to be cut from the same cloth.

Dark Archive

Steerpike7 wrote:


Anyone else having any trouble finding a 4E group?

Nope. I just asked around. You may want to see if there's a local Meetup group (www.meetup.com) in your area. I found several 4E games that way.


Steerpike7 wrote:
Nahualt wrote:


As for the part of the DM, yeah its very nice just having to take 15-30 minutes of prep time instead of the night before to set up the adventure.

I don't know about the whole 4E being more like 1E/2E in feel. Maybe in terms of less focus on build, as Bleach said above, but to me 4E is the furthest from 1E of any of the subsequent editions. It's different enough that to my group 3.5E feels like our D&D game, whereas the 4E game we were playing was more like a cool new system. That was our take on it.

Nevertheless I maintain that both are fun :)

Read the cosmology for BECM and the whole Tier structure of the game. 4e is WAY closer to that than even 1e is.

As for the classes, you would be surprised at how different they are. I think WOTC realized that you didnt have to reinvent the wheel everythime they came up with a class.

For example, the beguiler, dread necromancer and the warmage are pretty much palette swaps of classes. The mechanics between the three are dead on, but the difference in powers (spells) and class features gives entirely different play experience.

I'll give you an example in 4E. The paladin verus a fighter. Both have the same "class role" but throw a bunch of kobolds at both and watch how different they act.

Same thing with a ranger and a warlock. Both are strikers but in the hands of good tactical players, they are entirely different units.

Someone on another board alluded to the classes being like Starcraft units. Each race has a unit that fills the exact same role but the whole of the game means that you don't play a Terran like a Zerg like a Protoss.


Cintra Bristol wrote:
My group switched over quite happily. There are other groups in this area that don't show an interest in switching, though I don't know of any groups around here that are "split" in their opinions. (Then again, I don't know of that many gaming groups here in middle Tennessee at all...)

Middle TN!? Get out!! Oh, but you're playing 4th... =(


After playing one session of 4E my group decided, to a man, to stick with 3.5E.

Bandit of LV

Sovereign Court

Crosswired Mind wrote:
You're not alone. I canned my 4e game because classes are bugging me too. My group is going to alternate between Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and a RuneQuest/BRP. I think I am going to limit D&D to organized play only for a while.

I am impressed with your sincerity and honesty.


crosswiredmind wrote:

So what you posted above kind of reminds me of Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu, which I have the 5th edition of, and which I really enjoy. Is it similar to that in ways? Some of what you posted doesn't sound familiar, but some does. I'll have to check it out. There's definitely a large selection of RuneQuest material at my local store.

The Exchange

Steerpike7 wrote:
So what you posted above kind of reminds me of Chaosium's Call of Cthulhu, which I have the 5th edition of, and which I really enjoy. Is it similar to that in ways? Some of what you posted doesn't sound familiar, but some does. I'll have to check it out. There's definitely a large selection of RuneQuest material at my local store.

Call of Cthulhu uses a streamlined version of RunQuest rules (both based on the Chaosium BRP) so having played Call of Cthulhu you have already played BRP.

Sovereign Court

If CWM is canning 4th edition, that does not bode well for 4E's longevity. Not to pick on CWM, but he has defended 4E for quite a while. If even he can't stay interested in it enough for an extended campaign, who can? It seems that a lot of people that play 4E become disinterested in it quickly. Well, we still have Pathfinder.

The Exchange

Pax Veritas wrote:
Crosswired Mind wrote:
You're not alone. I canned my 4e game because classes are bugging me too. My group is going to alternate between Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay and a RuneQuest/BRP. I think I am going to limit D&D to organized play only for a while.
I am impressed with your sincerity and honesty.

Don't get me wrong Pax. In my opinion 4e is still far superior to 3e and if I ever GM D&D again I will use 4e. I guess I am just getting tired of D&D in general.

The Exchange

WotC's Nightmare wrote:
If CWM is canning 4th edition, that does not bode well for 4E's longevity. Not to pick on CWM, but he has defended 4E for quite a while. If even he can't stay interested in it enough for an extended campaign, who can? It seems that a lot of people that play 4E become disinterested in it quickly. Well, we still have Pathfinder.

Like I said - it is not about 4e v 3e. Its about me v D&D. I am not thrilled by Pathfinder either at the moment. I may steal ideas from Pathfinder mods but I am done GMing class based RPGs for a while.


crosswiredmind wrote:
I just picked up Chaosium's new Basic Role Playing and it rocks.

That sounds interesting. If I were not leaning towards rules light systems, I would take a closer look.

The Exchange

CourtFool wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:
I just picked up Chaosium's new Basic Role Playing and it rocks.
That sounds interesting. If I were not leaning towards rules light systems, I would take a closer look.

Funny that - BRP looks like a huge book but it presents a very modular rules set. The core of BRP is actually very light. In fact there is a form in the back that you can copy and hand out where the GM can check off all of the optional rules he or she will be using.


crosswiredmind wrote:


Call of Cthulhu uses a streamlined version of RunQuest rules (both based on the Chaosium BRP) so having played Call of Cthulhu you have already played BRP.

Nice. I think I'll buy some of the RuneQuest stuff, then. I really like 5th edition Call of Cthulhu a lot (by contrast I did not like d20 Call of Cthulhu).

The Exchange

Steerpike7 wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:


Call of Cthulhu uses a streamlined version of RunQuest rules (both based on the Chaosium BRP) so having played Call of Cthulhu you have already played BRP.

Nice. I think I'll buy some of the RuneQuest stuff, then. I really like 5th edition Call of Cthulhu a lot (by contrast I did not like d20 Call of Cthulhu).

Just remember that Mongoose RuneQuest is very similar to Chaosium's BRP but not exactly the same. Mongoose does some funky stuff with magic (mostly the incorporation of runes thing) and legendary abilities (a bit too power gamey for me). All in all its a solid system. For me Chaosium's BRP is closer to the original RQ.

Scarab Sages

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber

I am already seeing the problem with gamist v simulationist styles. I like the latter, but most of my group seems to prefer the former. I am trying to put in simulationist elements, but I suspect my players will rebel (ie..long-term damage, emphasis on role-playing vs metagame considerations).

Spoiler:
We got into an argument in KotS when those of us more into story wanted to press on to prevent the rift from opening, while the others, out of daily powers and low on healing surges wanted to bug out and rest a day. We pressed on and won in a long-drawn out slog fest, but it didn't help when the GM said, oh..it wouldn't have mattered if you had left and come back...booo on story driven game play, I guess.

My experiment will be trying to run Paul Culotta's "Steelheart" from Dungeon#53. Will the players balk at an immersive experience (ie sighting the impossibility of fighting some of the foes) or really get into it.

Its almost as if they want to FF to the fights now instead of listening and trying to solve the situation.


Why don't some of you stop by the ICE website and check out Rolemaster and HARP...
There is a "lite" version of HARP for free ...

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