My gut feeling is somewhere between waiting another day and waiting a week. As Jess mentioned having to wait until another level is somewhat like punishing the PC for trying to get ahead of the game. Perhaps for trying to decipher the spell he/she must wait til the next day, but for copying the spell perhaps waiting a week to allow for brain burn and gathering the needed supplies.
Just my 2 cp. That make no sense whatsoever.
I was going to say that waiting for a level advancement to try again makes sense because that's supposed to represent a PC's life experience which broadens his mind and hones his skills. However, I then started thinking about the NPC sage who maybe does nothing BUT study spells, which doesn't necessarily earn him or her any experience, while a rude and smelly dwarf who spends half his time barely surviving brawls with uppity, undead elves can suddenly figure it out in a much shorter time. So maybe it should be time-based?
As usual, I'm fine with the rule either way. I'm just trying to reconcile the contradiction that I'm seeing. I just want to know what my wizard can and cannot do.
I also posted the question elsewhere in these forums to see if somebody can huff "This has already been discussed!" and then maybe link that discussion.
Not saying we have to abide by anything other than our own decision, but I have to imagine that this has come up, already. Might be helpful.
Hmmm. I've been doing a lot of crossword puzzles lately, as an example of cracking some sort of technical and linguistic puzzle, and here's what happens:
So, a "realistic" solution might be:
How this impacts the game:
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I like that solution.
Untrained, the average value of a check is 10, but any random person can get between 1 and 20. A variance of 5 feels like something that makes sense in the "need to sleep on the problem" sort of way. I know that works for me with programming problems too.
Day 1: Tries to learn 2 spells. Fails by 4 on each.
Day 2: Tries to learn 2 spells. Fails by 9 on one - that can't be learned for a level. Fails by 2 on the other.
Day 3: Tries to learn remaining spell. Succeeds.
This feels more realistic for the game world, personally. I wouldn't even object to a week between tries, rather than a day. :)
I like that solution.
I wouldn't even object to a week between tries, rather than a day. :)
In real game play, a day vs. a week probably won't make much difference, so for convenience let's call it a day ("sleep on it" can become official rules language!).
Silverhair, Andostre, houstonderek -- what do you guys think?
TOZ -- feel free to weigh in as well.
So, a "realistic" solution might be:
# If you fail by 5 or less, you can try again after a day ("sleeping on it").
# If you fail by more than 5, you need more experience/practice. "In game," that's represented by skill ranks. In other words, you need another rank before you can try again.
I don't have a problem with this solution to the question.
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The crickets comment was because of a lack of response to my post regarding silverhair and mentioning games in the houston area.
Also that the Clear Lake group was also looking for maybe a few more commited players ( for PFS ) to support/fill out the second group. I was hoping for at least a hello or welcome to the chat about houston gaming or well anything is all. Unfortunately there was no love ;-(. Sounds like you guys are fairly tight after appearantly playing for so long through the beta testing and what not. Also sounds like you primarily do home play PF.
And yeah hearing who might be at OwlCon or not to at least meet more houston pathfinder people is always good.
Also sounds like you primarily do home play PF.
And homebrewed to the point now where about half of it is PFINO!
Silverhair, Andostre, houstonderek -- what do you guys think?
I like it. I like the idea of "sleeping on it," and I like that this means that Agun has another shot at learning that last scroll he's carrying around (which he plans on taking 10 on). :)
I was hoping for at least a hello or welcome to the chat about houston gaming or well anything is all. Unfortunately there was no love ;-(.
Next time, tell a bit more about yourself, and maybe a question asking some of the information you're interested in. The way your initial post in this thread was worded, you were only likely to get responses from folks near Clear Lake who are looking for a game. Nobody here is trying to be exclusionary.
Harkaelian wrote:
I was hoping for at least a hello or welcome to the chat about houston gaming or well anything is all. Unfortunately there was no love ;-(.
Next time, tell a bit more about yourself, and maybe a question asking some of the information you're interested in. The way your initial post in this thread was worded, you were only likely to get responses from folks near Clear Lake who are looking for a game. Nobody here is trying to be exclusionary.
+1
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TOZ -- feel free to weigh in as well.
You guys were doing so well I didn't feel I needed to. :)
I think a night's rest should be the first break. If the check isn't made then, the next check can be made after a week as long as the character devotes some time to research. Research requires access to some sort of library, even if it is only his own spellbook. Large libraries and excessive research time would give a bonus to the roll.
I think a night's rest should be the first break. If the check isn't made then, the next check can be made after a week as long as the character devotes some time to research. Research requires access to some sort of library, even if it is only his own spellbook. Large libraries and excessive research time would give a bonus to the roll.
That sounds reasonable to me.
Basic proposal has three in favor (Andostre, Jess Door, Silverhair) and one abstaining (Derek) -- motion passes.All in favor of TOZ's addendum?
Sounds fine.
Sounds okay to me. The bonus for having access to a larger library could be a +2 on the check. I don't think that seems too unreasonable.
Abstinence is the only way to be sure, you know.
Of making a Spellcraft check?
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Abstinence is the only way to be sure, you know.Of making a Spellcraft check?
You said I abstained from a vote. :)
I should have abstained for a lot of things.
On a related note, thank you and Mrs. Gerson for the treat at the Black Lab. ;)
I'll be there tonight, but I'll be bussing it, so I'll probably be either early or a bit late, depending.
I'll be there tonight, but I'll be bussing it, so I'll probably be either early or a bit late, depending.
Looking forward to seeing you, whenever you can make it.
I can't remember - did we have an obsidian unholy symbol with a creepy glowy red center from either Lord Fairpoint or Paul?
I can fairly well say we did not find anything similar on Lord Fairpoint. I am not sure about Pa'ul.
Lord Fairpoint had no such adjunct, nor any indication of clerical abilities of any kind.
Sgt. Seurat had a fairly nondescript unholy symbol -- either he isn't specifically a cleric of Graz'zt, or else is relying on the fact that unaffiliated mortals can cast divine spells of 0 - 2nd level without the deity itself granting them.
Llewella could probably have substituted Baphomet's symbol and gotten away with it, but she was proud of her worship of
Hey, maybe the King can help us with that. You know its "good to be the King".
I do not believe constantly requesting gifts of the king is the best way to approach all problems.
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Seriously, though, we had an unholy symbol, didn't we? Cadigan used it to track down where the initial unholy symbol he stole from Llwela went. Was it simply her second holy symbol?
I want to use it with Locate Object (which Agun can cast) to find the next nearest one. Especially once we get close to the lumbermill.
That sounds like a good idea.
Seriously, though, we had an unholy symbol, didn't we? Cadigan used it to track down where the initial unholy symbol he stole from Llewella went. Was it simply her second holy symbol?
Exactly -- you swiped one and sold it, then failed to follow her covertly as she left town in her carriage for the northwest (after the carnage Rim left of her bully-boys at the inn). The next time you saw her after that was in Estren (at the ruined monastery), and she had somehow acquired another one from somewhere. After the "misunderstanding" under the monastery, that one became yours (and no one was letting Rim touch it).
Geography Note: The foothills of the Andoor Mountains begin just northwest of the city, whereas the town of Fairpoint is to the west, along a different road. I'll email maps one of these days...
I can't understand why a cleric cannot examine an unholy/holy symbol. You are all against me. I'm all alone in the world. *sigh*
I can't understand why a cleric cannot examine an unholy/holy symbol. You are all against me. I'm all alone in the world. *sigh*
Sheraviel raises an eyebrow. "Considering that one of your less savory habits is placing unknown artifact level objects that radiate evil found in abandoned buildings in your mouth - ripping out your own tooth in the proces, may I add - I consider keeping most magical objects out of your possession an excercise in our collective survival." Sheravial's eyes flicker over toward Rim's adamantine glaive. "At least with simple such objects, such as weapons, placing them in your mouth will likely kill you - thus rendering said habit much less...detrimental to my continued existence."
Ah, don't let her get to you, Rim. It's just her hoity-toity elf hygiene morals coming to the surface.
(Hey, also, put in a good word for me with Kelowan next time he takes over your brain. Okay, champ?)
Ah, don't let her get to you, Rim. It's just her hoity-toity elf hygiene morals coming to the surface.
(Hey, also, put in a good word for me with Kelowan next time he takes over your brain. Okay, champ?)
"Stop 'helping'."
"Considering that one of your less savory habits is placing unknown artifact level objects that radiate evil found in abandoned buildings in your mouth..."
I'm still wondering what would have happened if he'd swapped one of the beachball's eyes for one of his...
Sorry, not helping!
No, that was Cadigan that wanted to do that. He would have beat me to it.
I don't know quite how I ended up in the company of so many lunatics.
No, that was Cadigan that wanted to do that. He would have beat me to it.
Do you honestly think I'd do anything to mar this face? My agent and the eau de toilette peeps would have a cow.
I don't know quite how I ended up in the company of so many lunatics.
I have a few theories, but my AC and BAB aren't high enough to confidently express them, cher ;)
Erik, Agun learned Protection from Evil from Lord Fairpoint's spellbook. Does this mean he also knows Protection from Good? Are they the same spell, but one is the reverse casting? What about Protection from Law and Chaos?
Agun learned Protection from Evil from Lord Fairpoint's spellbook. Does this mean he also knows Protection from Good? Are they the same spell, but one is the reverse casting? What about Protection from Law and Chaos?
Good question! In the rulebook they're separate, but that seems a bit goofy to me. Why don't we say that he found the "vs. evil" version of the spell, but can also learn the "vs. law/chaos/good" versions with DC 21 Spellcraft checks?
I have a few theories, but my AC and BAB aren't high enough to confidently express them, cher ;)
Do I have to put up with these cretins again? I wonder what Kelowan is doing about now? Perhaps I should go find out.
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If you're serious about Rim looking to redeem himself, please think about whether you'd rather we not become spies for the king's side in the civil war - if it would be in violation of what your character considers right as a paladin.
hm.
This is one thing that bothers me about the paladin. To even retain your class bonuses and remain a viable member of the party with your powers intact, you force the rest of the party to act in a certain manner. I think that's another reason I liked the crusader. I could still be the paladin like character, but I wouldn't lose my powers if the party chose a way I disagreed with. I could still do what I could to influence party actions to a direction I preferred, but I wasn't holding the "If you don't do this I lose my powers and am useless to you for the rest of the adventure" club over the party's head.
I've never seen a solution to that particular problem with the paladin.
If you're serious about Rim looking to redeem himself, please think about whether you'd rather we not become spies for the king's side in the civil war - if it would be in violation of what your character considers right as a paladin.
Excellent point. On the one hand, part of the "Dumas-ness" of the setting is an implicit trust in the rightness of the monarchy, despite their incompetence (ever read Man in the Iron Mask? It does NOT end like the DiCaprio movie!). Therefore, an elven paladin might consider it a DUTY to gather intelligence for the King's army, despite the fact that he'd rather be at the vanguard of the army instead -- being denied his day of glorious fighting in order to perform disagreeable "higher duties" would be his cross to bear, so he'd get a full day's dose of "oh, it's so HARD being a paladin!"
But a dwarf paladin? Dunno. Rim will have to work that one out for himself.
I have pretty much given up on the Dwarf Paladin idea. Here is a synopsis of the conversation between Derek, Jeff and myself on the way home. It is a distinct possibility that Rim will remove the tooth, but not regenerate a replacement. He will most likely place the tooth in his pouch for safe keeping. The basics of the plan was because we will most likely not do anything about Kelowan until we get around 15th level or so. With the slow way we are progressing having the tooth take up a spell slot is just not good strategy. So we will probably have Cadogan remove the tooth, while Agun asks for some time to make some scrolls, maybe a week. If Sheraviel went to serve her King by spying on her liege we would not let her go alone. She has saved our collective asses too many times for us to turn our backs on her. Friends don't let friends die needlessly.
Just my 2 cp.
I would imagine that the mountain dwarf nation doesn't have any sort of official relationship with Hylore or the rebels, so I don't think national duty would apply. What about Rim's deity? Does he or she have a specific agenda that would apply?
Side note: I like that one of the advantages of the paladin being a prestige class in this campaign is that it forces a character to act paladin-like without the threat of immediate penalty, which makes the action more pure, in a way.
As for Agun, I think we've had enough near-death experiences as a group that he realizes the the value of partnering with some more martial allies. So, he'll go along with the group to spy on the rebels. (It didn't hurt that he's not getting what he was promised about the academy, either.)
However, I'd really like for him to get some downtime to scribe a few scrolls, so he's going to recommend that Sheraviel go on by herself a week (give or take) ahead of the rest of us, saying that she'll arouse less suspicion that way, and that maybe the three of us are less likely to be watched than she will be (or vice versa).
And that's if we decide to spy as a group. Cadogan and Rim still need to decide what they want.
Edit: I see that silverhair posted while I was still writing this. I just want to add, "Heh. Friends."
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I don't want the party or any members to feel that we have to go the "spy" route. If you're still interested in being a paladin, we can join the king's side openly - that wouldn't required you to lie or prevaricate on our presence in the enemy camp. It's why I'm asking. :) Just wanted to be sure you'd considered that.
However, I'd really like for him to get some downtime to scribe a few scrolls, so he's going to recommend that Sheraviel go on by herself a week (give or take) ahead of the rest of us, saying that she'll arouse less suspicion that way, and that maybe the three of us are less likely to be watched than she will be (or vice versa).
Note that, even if you show up at d'Ansac's camp immediately, you'll have plenty of time to scribe scrolls while Monsieur le Marquis is assembling and organizing his army. Besides, Agun's a dwarf: if he tells the Maquis' men that he's "fabricating magical items," they'll probably assign him bodyguards and bring him any materials he wants (thus cutting his personal costs to near-zero).
Agun and Rim end up in a potentially dangerous situation going the "spy" route, however. Sheravel, as a member of the King's Guard, has "official business" as an aegis to cover for her if it comes out later on. But Agun and Rim, as "foreign nationals," risk provoking an international incident between Aviona and the Elder Mountains if they openly join the rebel army.
Rearig has more of a bent toward Protection than anything else. Now that could be taken as protecting the Status quo, or in protecting the rights of individuals to choose their leader.
As for what I want to do, I like the idea of getting into an enemy camp and finding out their plans so they can be thwarted. However, I am not too fond of dying by hanging. Do they do that to spies here? I would like the opportunity to engage in some small unit tactics though. My thoughts are these: we know who and what the King is like; we don't know what this other guy is like.
Is it a likely scenario that the King might be able to get in an early strike at this guy's forces and disrupt his plans a little bit?