Death of Gleemax


Gamer Life General Discussion

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Lone Shark Games

Jal Dorak wrote:
Reading this, I sort of felt bad for Randy.

Randy's a friend of mine, and I would never put words in his mouth. Still, I can't imagine he's looking for sympathy. He's trying to explain what he did and why it didn't work, and taking some of the responsibility for any unfortunate results of those decisions. He's much more likely to want you to feel bad for the fans on Gleemax than for him.

Mike

Scarab Sages

Mike Selinker wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:
Reading this, I sort of felt bad for Randy.

Randy's a friend of mine, and I would never put words in his mouth. Still, I can't imagine he's looking for sympathy. He's trying to explain what he did and why it didn't work, and taking some of the responsibility for any unfortunate results of those decisions. He's much more likely to want you to feel bad for the fans on Gleemax than for him.

Mike

Sounds like a good guy.

Keep in mind I said "sort of" - I mean, as a VP he likely understands business and risk, so it's not like I was weeping for him. It was good to see an exec take responsibility for his decisions. I guess I more feel bad that part of his dreams are on hold, and those dreams affect thousands of people.

Lone Shark Games

Jal Dorak wrote:

Sounds like a good guy.

Keep in mind I said "sort of" - I mean, as a VP he likely understands business and risk, so it's not like I was weeping for him. It was good to see an exec take responsibility for his decisions. I guess I more feel bad that part of his dreams are on hold, and those dreams affect thousands of people.

True. You'd think disappointing fans gets easier after, say, your first decade as a game designer, but it never does.

Mike

Sovereign Court

Mike Selinker wrote:
Jal Dorak wrote:
Reading this, I sort of felt bad for Randy.

Randy's a friend of mine, and I would never put words in his mouth. Still, I can't imagine he's looking for sympathy. He's trying to explain what he did and why it didn't work, and taking some of the responsibility for any unfortunate results of those decisions. He's much more likely to want you to feel bad for the fans on Gleemax than for him.

Mike

Gleemax has fans? That's news to me. This just proves that Wotc + anything electronic = failure. You'd think they would have learned by now.

The Exchange

WotC needs to get on the stick and get some help from folks that know how to design complex web apps. With all due respect to Randy it would seem that he (and WotC in general) lacked the relevant experience to pull this off.

The Exchange

This is like that lame movie Independence Day when they blow up the mothership after planting the virus. All we need now is Randy Quaid's face stretched across a wide theatre screen saying "up yours" to the blue glowey crystal weapon exploder D&D Insider 4th Sedition.

Cheers,
Zux


crosswiredmind wrote:
WotC needs to get on the stick and get some help from folks that know how to design complex web apps. With all due respect to Randy it would seem that he (and WotC in general) lacked the relevant experience to pull this off.

Who do you think they hired to work on this project? Elementary school students?

I assume that there are as many experienced web developers working on the project that they could get their hands on (given their budget). But creating a complex web application from scratch is not easy. Otherwise I'm sure we'd be seeing a lot of fancy bells and whistles on Paizo's web site as well!

Grand Lodge

veector wrote:

Wizards has announced they will be shutting down Gleemax.com

Good? Bad? Inevitable? Discuss...

Inevitable.

They should have walked before they ran. The priorities should have been to get the game table out first, the character gen second and then gleemax.

Most of all though, they should have had a cooler name than gleemax.

The Exchange

hogarth wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:
WotC needs to get on the stick and get some help from folks that know how to design complex web apps. With all due respect to Randy it would seem that he (and WotC in general) lacked the relevant experience to pull this off.

Who do you think they hired to work on this project? Elementary school students?

I assume that there are as many experienced web developers working on the project that they could get their hands on (given their budget). But creating a complex web application from scratch is not easy. Otherwise I'm sure we'd be seeing a lot of fancy bells and whistles on Paizo's web site as well!

I am not talking about developers. I am talking about designers - and not graphic designers. They need folks that understand how to design systems for use. They need user experience designers, information architects, and interaction designers. They need people that understand the fundamentals of product strategy and the design process - not just people that know the technology.

Apologies to the developers out there that do know how to design systems (all three of you) but most coders really crappy designers.


crosswiredmind wrote:

I am not talking about developers. I am talking about designers - and not graphic designers. They need folks that understand how to design systems for use. They need user experience designers, information architects, and interaction designers. They need people that understand the fundamentals of product strategy and the design process - not just people that know the technology.

Apologies to the developers out there that do know how to design systems (all three of you) but most coders really crappy designers.

I'm a web developer and he's absolutely right. Gleemax felt thrown together, not thought out at all.

Liberty's Edge

Gleemax was not cool to begin with and was crashing left and right even last year at GenCon when they tried flooding it with new members. It was supposed to replace facebook or myspace for gamers, and tripped flat on it's brain.

So, not surprised, no.

-DM Jeff


hogarth wrote:

Who do you think they hired to work on this project? Elementary school students?

I assume that there are as many experienced web developers working on the project that they could get their hands on (given their budget). But creating a complex web application from scratch is not easy. Otherwise I'm sure we'd be seeing a lot of fancy bells and whistles on Paizo's web site as well!

I'm with CWM and Veector on this one. "Experienced" web developers are a dime a dozen but good architects and quality developers are a hard find and ofter rather expensive (often over $100/hour per person). I've seen developers with over ten years of experience write code that didn't even implement industry best practices. Besides, developing a system or application is only 1/5th of a project at best. Designing and testing the application are often much more important than the actual development.

Overall, I'm not surprised by this move. WoTC is an RPG publishing company not a application developer so I think this is the right move.


Aaron Whitley wrote:
I'm with CWM and Veector on this one. "Experienced" web developers are a dime a dozen but good architects and quality developers are a hard find and ofter rather expensive (often over $100/hour per person).

Indeed; that's why I said they presumably got the best that (a) they could get their hands on, and (b) within the restraints of their budget.

Personally, my experience with Gleemax was mostly O.K. aside from the periodic outages they were suffering. All I ever did was visit their message boards and they seemed to work all right (more or less) whether they were on Gleemax or on wizards.com. In fact, I like their message board design better than another message board that we're all familiar with...

Lone Shark Games

WotC's Nightmare wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:
He's much more likely to want you to feel bad for the fans on Gleemax than for him.
Gleemax has fans? That's news to me. This just proves that Wotc + anything electronic = failure. You'd think they would have learned by now.

I said "the fans on Gleemax," not "the fans of Gleemax."

Mike

The Exchange

hogarth wrote:
Indeed; that's why I said they presumably got the best that (a) they could get their hands on, and (b) within the restraints of their budget.

I would bet the restraints of their budget is one of the biggest reasons they are in their current bind. WotC is not going to attract the best in the field of user experience design. I don't think they could afford to build the kind of team required to get the job done right. Well, not without a major scale down of their expectations.


I predicted this six months ago.

No surprise here.

When it comes to tech, the WotC boys are still in the stoneage.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

WotC should really stick to what they are quite good at - writing games and supplements. Doing a "from-the-scratch" Digital Initiative is something that company is simply not capable of. Gleemax dies now, DDI will likely launch after 6 months with a horrible amount of bugs, take another 6 months to reach usability state by which time everybody will have already their own method of playing D&D online.

I must say that I admire the bravery of WotC in trying to challenge World of Warcraft head on, but it's simply hopeless - it's apples to oranges, and WotC's digital apples are somewhat rotten. It's one thing having balls and then dropping them midway (WotC) and another thing having balls and holding on them despite the odds (Paizo and 3.P).


Gleemax felt like so many other projects that I've had the displeasure to work on - trying to do too much with too little resources in a short period of time. I am sorry for the community more than anything else.

Speaking of awkward projects, I must get back to work...

The Exchange

Lilith wrote:
Gleemax felt like so many other projects that I've had the displeasure to work on - trying to do too much with too little resources in a short period of time.

Yep. They tried to boil the ocean with a bic lighter.


crosswiredmind wrote:
hogarth wrote:
Indeed; that's why I said they presumably got the best that (a) they could get their hands on, and (b) within the restraints of their budget.
I would bet the restraints of their budget is one of the biggest reasons they are in their current bind. WotC is not going to attract the best in the field of user experience design. I don't think they could afford to build the kind of team required to get the job done right. Well, not without a major scale down of their expectations.

I'm certainly not top of the line, but having designed and developed web apps like that for a decade, I considered applying to work at WotC. But remembering the waves (plural) of layoffs after third edition and realizing WotC was taking a big risk building all of this stuff in house, I very quickly came to my senses. The fellow programmers I work/have worked with that are gamers (and boatloads more technically skilled than me) all had the same conclusion. They didn't want to move across country to be laid off in a year. (Thankfully no one was laid off with the Gleemax shut down. But, personally, I still wouldn't trust the long term job prospects.)

Also I have no idea what they are offering, but from what I hear about pay in the game industry in general, WotC needed to either:

a) pay their tech people a heck of a lot more than their game designers,

b) find programmers/designers who are excited enough about the job to take a big pay cut, or

c) hire people straight from college without real business programming experience.


crosswiredmind wrote:
WotC needs to get on the stick and get some help from folks that know how to design complex web apps. With all due respect to Randy it would seem that he (and WotC in general) lacked the relevant experience to pull this off.
hogarth wrote:
Who do you think they hired to work on this project? Elementary school students?

It would appear so :/

Scarab Sages

Tensor wrote:


Are all the IT people it took to create and run that site being laid off?

That's been my question all along... "Who thought that this was ready for even ALPHA testing, and who at WotC believed them?" I guess I know the answers, now.

Gleemax... I always think of Mojo the Monkey (from the Simpsons) when I think of that horrible excuse for an online ... thing.

"Pray for Gleemax" ::wheeze... wheeze::

I might have posted something to Gleemax once. That's probably the only time it actually loaded two pages in a row for me. Absolute garbage. Not exactly a great preview of their online foray with DDI to be honest.

Good riddance.

Yah, I'm fairly passionate about hating Gleemax. ;)

Scarab Sages

hogarth wrote:

Who do you think they hired to work on this project? Elementary school students?

I assume that there are as many experienced web developers working on the project that they could get their hands on (given their budget). But creating a complex web application from scratch is not easy. Otherwise I'm sure we'd be seeing a lot of fancy bells and whistles on Paizo's web site as well!

Paizo's problem is that they want someone to move to the corner of the country to do the work. If they would hire someone to work remotely, I bet they'd have someone fully qualified and willing to do the work for the pay in less than a month. Just my thoughts on that matter, anyway.

Oh, and Gary does a hell of a job given his resources. :) Just think what they could do online with an additional half-Gary, even!

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16

hmarcbower wrote:

Paizo's problem is that they want someone to move to the corner of the country to do the work. If they would hire someone to work remotely, I bet they'd have someone fully qualified and willing to do the work for the pay in less than a month. Just my thoughts on that matter, anyway.

Oh, and Gary does a hell of a job given his resources. :) Just think what they could do online with an additional half-Gary, even!

I hate to burst your bubble, but the particular corner of the country that Paizo wants their employees in just happens to be a major tech hub with some little bitty company called Microsoft in the vicinity.

Also, I know far more people that would LOVE to move to Seattle than who wouldn't.


An additional half-Gary...
Gads, the messy images that conjures up. Poor janitors!


Nameless wrote:
Me, I'm waiting for Duke Nukem Forever. ;)

Good news! Duke Nukem Forever is 98% complete! They're just waiting for the completion of The Last Dangerous Visions so they can include it on the CD as an Easter egg!

Dark Archive

It has been interesting reading the posts on this topic over at Wizards. All the 4e supporters over there are panicking that this could lead to a failure in the DDI. A failure in the DDI would lead to the death of 4e and D&D. The death of 4e and D&D would mean the end of WotC and Hasbro holding on to the D&D Liscense and the end of the world would begin!!

Isn't that the same mentality they were bashing the 3.x supporters when they killed the Mags and started 4e?

Kinda getting a taste of their own medicine now I think. It's pretty funny really.


I'm quite happy with the death of Gleemax, as I believe that it will lead to better support of the thing that I care about: DDI. Let's hope WotC makes good on their promise to add to support to DDI rather than falling short, as I can't wait for it's completion!

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
JoelF847 wrote:

I hate to burst your bubble, but the particular corner of the country that Paizo wants their employees in just happens to be a major tech hub with some little bitty company called Microsoft in the vicinity.

Also, I know far more people that would LOVE to move to Seattle than who wouldn't.

Microsoft is a big part of the problem for Paizo. Microsoft in the vicinity drives up the salary expectation for a developer in that area ... even one that would move to Seattle.

It'll really take the wind out of someone's sails to find out the guy that lives next door makes 3x as much as you do when he has the same experience.

-Skeld

Sovereign Court

Mike Selinker wrote:
WotC's Nightmare wrote:
Mike Selinker wrote:
He's much more likely to want you to feel bad for the fans on Gleemax than for him.
Gleemax has fans? That's news to me. This just proves that Wotc + anything electronic = failure. You'd think they would have learned by now.

I said "the fans on Gleemax," not "the fans of Gleemax."

Mike

Sorry. I misread your post. I suspect that a lot of fans on Gleemax weren't to happy about it being thrust on them in the first place, and won't be sad to see it go, especially with the horrible "any content you post here is ours" policy of Gleemax.


Ken Marable wrote:


Also I have no idea what they are offering, but from what I hear about pay in the game industry in general, WotC needed to either:

a) pay their tech people a heck of a lot more than their game designers,

b) find programmers/designers who are excited enough about the job to take a big pay cut, or

c) hire people straight from college without real business programming experience.

Unfortunately for the publishing industry, this is true. Just look up what Senior Web Developers make on Salary.com.

The one time when I worked in the publishing industry as a web developer, my salary was higher than any of the editors who had more years under their belt than myself. But then again, that IS why I left off ideas of working in the game industry.

I'm not trying to foment any discord, but the roles are very different between editors and web developers and one cannot succeed without the other.

The Exchange

veector wrote:
I'm not trying to foment any discord, but the roles are very different between editors and web developers and one cannot succeed without the other.

The salary differential in not just about role. I am a Senior Information Architect with over 10 years of experience. There are only a handful of folks in the world with that kind of experience. The same with interaction designers, visual designers, and web developers. Scarcity causes a big jump in demand, which in turn cause salaries to rise.

I would love to work for a game company but at this point they could not afford to hire me.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

crosswiredmind wrote:
veector wrote:
I'm not trying to foment any discord, but the roles are very different between editors and web developers and one cannot succeed without the other.

The salary differential in not just about role. I am a Senior Information Architect with over 10 years of experience. There are only a handful of folks in the world with that kind of experience. The same with interaction designers, visual designers, and web developers. Scarcity causes a big jump in demand, which in turn cause salaries to rise.

I would love to work for a game company but at this point they could not afford to hire me.

Side-track on

You are not really saying that there are only a few hundred people in the world that have ten years of IT experience, are you?

More likely you mean that you've been an Information Architect for 10 years and even then I seriously doubt there are but a handful of you guys out there.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Lilith wrote:


Speaking of awkward projects, I must get back to work...

Real work? Or writing?


Darkjoy wrote:
Lilith wrote:


Speaking of awkward projects, I must get back to work...

Real work? Or writing?

Technically they're both real work...but I was talking about my day job. :)


Darkjoy wrote:

Side-track on

You are not really saying that there are only a few hundred people in the world that have ten years of IT experience, are you?

More likely you mean that you've been an Information Architect for 10 years and even then I seriously doubt there are but a handful of you guys out there.

I wouldn't disagree that scarcity comes into play. I think he was just making a point about how to hire all of the people necessary for that kind of project, it takes A LOT of looking, and would probably require at least a year of hiring to find the right team.

Even then, to do the project right, you require a lot of customer feedback, testing (interface as well), and continued support with new features.


Hell, I work for one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world and we have a hard time finding qualified candidates for positions. The IT and computer industry in general suffers from being still rather new and changing faster than any other industries. It can be hard to find individuals with experience who have also kept up with the changes in the industry.

Scarab Sages

JoelF847 wrote:

I hate to burst your bubble, but the particular corner of the country that Paizo wants their employees in just happens to be a major tech hub with some little bitty company called Microsoft in the vicinity.

Also, I know far more people that would LOVE to move to Seattle than who wouldn't.

My bubble has not been burst - it just helps to prove my point. If someone with the needed qualifications is going to move to that corner, then, as someone else noted, they're likely going to work for Microsoft. I seem to recall that what Paizo is offering for pay, which specifically does not include relocation costs, would likely not be enough to cover moving to the area unless someone was already planning to move there. That makes it seem like they don't really feel they need someone else, honestly.

This is entirely an aside, though, and is rampant speculation on my part. :) We were discussing the what-seemed-to-be inevitable collapse of the abomination known as Gleemax.

To that point... do people think that this will actually mean DDI will be better? Or will it mean it, too, is doomed to the same fate as Gleemax since they haven't really had a change in staff, and thus no change in capabilities? Has anyone heard if they really are just repositioning programming resources at this point, or did they get rid of the people who were working on Gleemax?

Scarab Sages

Aaron Whitley wrote:
Hell, I work for one of the largest pharmaceutical companies in the world and we have a hard time finding qualified candidates for positions. The IT and computer industry in general suffers from being still rather new and changing faster than any other industries. It can be hard to find individuals with experience who have also kept up with the changes in the industry.

I remember, maybe 10 or 11 years ago, seeing ads asking for 5 years experience as a Java programmer. Unless they were looking to hire the developers at Sun, nobody on the planet had 5 years of experience with Java at the time, as it had only been released by Sun in 1995, I think. Clearly some requirements are not justifiable. That's why it's important to be willing to do two things: write realistic job requirements; and be prepared to have the people you hire actually learn some things on the job. Unless you're paying a crapload of money, it's not likely you're going to find someone to fill the job you have open, and be able to be fully productive on day 1 - because that person already has a job that is paying him or her a crapload of money.

You can be the Yankees - who pay craploads of money to accomplished people who are at the height of their careers (and still can't win!), or you can be any other team in the league who hires people based on potential and the ability to learn and grow with the team/company.

Industrial Light and Magic? Started from a bunch of college students.
Microsoft? Started by a college dropout.

Anyway... that's my little rant on the state of the IT industry and hiring people. :)


hmarcbower wrote:

You can be the Yankees - who pay craploads of money to accomplished people who are at the height of their careers (and still can't win!), or you can be any other team in the league who hires people based on potential and the ability to learn and grow with the team/company.

Industrial Light and Magic? Started from a bunch of college students.
Microsoft? Started by a college dropout.

Anyway... that's my little rant on the state of the IT industry and hiring people. :)

Sounds similar to how I got my job. I have no college degree and my former boss only had a GED, but he was a firm believer in not letting a piece of paper be the only thing that qualified you for a job. Everything I learned, I learned on the job and through my prior interests in computer repair and programming.

I do hold two certifications, but still no college degree, but I have had the job for over six years now and at least I have an assistant now. (Yay!)


hmarcbower wrote:
To that point... do people think that this will actually mean DDI will be better? Or will it mean it, too, is doomed to the same fate as Gleemax since they haven't really had a change in staff, and thus no change in capabilities? Has anyone heard if they really are just repositioning programming resources at this point, or did they get rid of the people who were working on Gleemax?

According to blogs of former WotC-staffers who are still friends with many of the folk there, there were no lay-offs.

And from the WotC statements, it sure sounds like it will help DDI as they saw it as a case of spreading resources out over too many projects with too many deliverables. So, cutting a huge project off the list and focusing those resources on Magic Online and DDI should generally speed those up. (Yeah, there's the diminishing returns things with throwing twice as many bodies at a project doesn't cut development time in half, but generally, more people working on a multi-faceted, large project generally speeds things up.)

So, I'd say this should get the DDI components out the door quicker. Now, given WotC's track history with online projects, they may be like the Rules Compendium and be awfully underwhelming, but either way, I think we should see them sooner rather than later with Gleemax development on hold.


Lilith wrote:

Sounds similar to how I got my job. I have no college degree and my former boss only had a GED, but he was a firm believer in not letting a piece of paper be the only thing that qualified you for a job. Everything I learned, I learned on the job and through my prior interests in computer repair and programming.

I do hold two certifications, but still no college degree, but I have had the job for over six years now and at least I have an assistant now. (Yay!)

The best bunch of web app developers I've worked with included someone who dropped out of a Forestry and Wildlife program, a History PhD dropout, a Philosophy PhD dropout (me), one of the world's foremost experts on bug cuisine (yes, that's recipes made out of bugs, not what bugs eat), one of the top correspondence chess commentators, a med school dropout, and so on. Only about a third of the company had ever taken actual, formal "computery" classes.

The Exchange

Darkjoy wrote:
You are not really saying that there are only a few hundred people in the world that have ten years of IT experience, are you?

No. Designing large scale online projects like the DDI and Gleemax is not about IT at all. I am talking about online strategy and user experience design. Those disciplines have only been around since the mid-1990s.

Darkjoy wrote:
More likely you mean that you've been an Information Architect for 10 years and even then I seriously doubt there are but a handful of you guys out there.

IAs with 10+ years of experience in that discipline are rare since it really began in 1996-1997. So yes - there are not a whole lot of us that have been practitioners from the start. Whenever a company I work for looks to hire folks with Senior level experience it can take months to find the right resume. If I had to put it into numbers I would say, world wide, IA and UX professionals with 10+ years of experience number in the mid to low thousands at the most. Now when you get to 5+ years of experience that number shoots up dramatically.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
crosswiredmind wrote:
IAs with 10+ years of experience in that discipline are rare since it really began in 1996-1997. So yes - there are not a whole lot of us that have been practitioners from the start.

So, your an information architect with 10 or so years experience? Do you mostly do consulting?

Just curious.

-Skeld

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Skeld wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:
IAs with 10+ years of experience in that discipline are rare since it really began in 1996-1997. So yes - there are not a whole lot of us that have been practitioners from the start.

So, your an information architect with 10 or so years experience? Do you mostly do consulting?

Just curious.

-Skeld

Do tell.

And if you can specify what in your mind an IA does, that would be helpful as well. In all my years I've noticed that IT lingo often has many different words for the same thing ;>

The Exchange

Skeld wrote:
crosswiredmind wrote:
IAs with 10+ years of experience in that discipline are rare since it really began in 1996-1997. So yes - there are not a whole lot of us that have been practitioners from the start.

So, your an information architect with 10 or so years experience? Do you mostly do consulting?

Just curious.

-Skeld

Nope - full time wage slave. My current gig is with Comcast Interactive Media. Past gigs included Vanguard, IKON Office Solutions, and several interactive agencies.


crosswiredmind wrote:
Nope - full time wage slave. My current gig is with Comcast Interactive Media. Past gigs included Vanguard, IKON Office Solutions, and several interactive agencies.

So... you're the guy I can complain to about my service? Just kidding. :)

Sovereign Court

Hasbro has apparently also forced the game scrabulous off of Facebook (over copyright issues) but promised that they would make their own on-line version of scrabble available... apparently their website crashed and was then hacked before anyone was able to download it...

Perhaps they pulled people off Gleemax to try to make their on-line Scrabble work... based on their success with the DDI my brother-in-law, who is a Scrabulous fanatic, is going to have to find another hobby.

Grand Lodge

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
crosswiredmind wrote:
Nope - full time wage slave. My current gig is with Comcast Interactive Media. Past gigs included Vanguard, IKON Office Solutions, and several interactive agencies.

And you own and operate a toy company?

The Exchange

Darkjoy wrote:
And if you can specify what in your mind an IA does, that would be helpful as well. In all my years I've noticed that IT lingo often has many different words for the same thing ;>

Well - I'll tie this back to the OP if possible.

I work on all kinds of digital media - web, mobile, tv, and traditional software. I focus on product strategy and shaping both the structure and function of the entire system. The three core parts of the whole that I shape are the organizational system, navigation, and the way all of the parts form a whole. The focus is on understanding the business goals and the needs of the user base and making sure that the two are in harmony. I do not focus on what can be done but what should be done. I help to shape what should be built and how it should work. Finally I help to set priorities for what the system should do now, six months from now, and beyond.

Gleemax wanted to be everything - all at once. It was hard to use. It was hard to find what you were looking for. It tried to meet needs that the users did not have and failed to meet the needs they did have. To use a food metaphor - their eyes were bigger than their stomach. They seem to be focusing on what can be done and less on what should be done - and what steps will get us there.

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