I originally posted this in the races and classes forum, but since it involves a new rule for fighters I'll post it here.
I really like the alpha 3 remix of races and classes. Simply beautiful, Pathfinder has a much better foundation of core classes than 3.0 or 3.5 dnd did. I do, however, want to make some suggestions for the fighter class, an old favorite of mine who often finds himself relegated to the role of "splash class" - the prevailing attitide in dnd 3e was that you might take a few levels in fighter, but most other paths are optimal for end-game "careers."
The Paladin can smite, heal, and turn undead... the Barbarian can rage, has a host of new rage powers, gets more hp and can soak damage like no other... the Monk does INSANE damage with his martial arts and ki powered-fists... and, what does the fighter do, exactly? Well, he fights with weapons... and he should be the MASTER of weaponcraft.
I think fighters should do more damage with a given weapon as they level up, much the way monks do with unarmed damage. A simple 2 handed sword in the hands of a 20th level fighter is MUCH deadlier than a keen +5 2 handed sword in the hands of a first level fighter. Mind and body of a master fighter make a far greater difference than allbut the mightiest of enchantments. I've got a few ideas on this, so please tell me what you think.
Now, before I continue, consider that I've been playing d&d since 2nd ed., and seen how fighters changed with each ed. In 3e, they became more of a "splash class" and I think we need to step up the sheer power of the fighter class to make them attractive as a single-class career.
Think of the "career-defining powers" of the other warrior classes: Paladins get a host of powerful supernatural abilities that make them far more useful to a party and far more effective against certain types of enemies. Barbarians get rage, and rage points to buy many useful powers they can use. Monks get incredible damage dealing power with their unarmed attacks, as well as feats that let them further enchance their damage and number of attacks per round, and ki pool powers that make them even more outstanding. Rangers get free dual wield or ranged feats, favored enemies, tracking abilities etc...
And fighters? well... there used to be Weapon Specializations and masteries, and those used to mean something.
There used to be a book for 2nd ed called "combat and tactics" that gave optional rules for weapon mastery. level 1 - proficient, can use a weapon normally. level 2 - specialized, +1 to hit, +2 dmg. level 3 - master, +3 to hit and damage total. level 4 - high master, gain an additional attack per round, do even more damage, and weapon speed improves. level 5 - grand master, this one gave a greater crit range, more damage, and weapon speed improved 2 categories. Also, if the fighter is using his grand mastered weapon AND is fighting someone who is ALSO using his favorite weapon, he gets some ac bonus and adittional to-hit bonus. Now, I'm not saying pathfinder should use an "exact copy" of those rules but it's a good place to get the "feel" for how a fighter improves as he masters his weapons.
Now, let's consider another fighting class for a moment, the monk. Largely considered a power gamer class, the monk deals more damage unarmed than most fighters with two handed weapons, and gets as many attacks per round with greater flurry of blows as a dual wielder. Larger monks do more damage, and monks can get "virtual size increases" through feats like Improved Natural Attack, and Empty Hand Mastery. A 20th level monk with both of these feats deals 6d8 damage plus str bonuses, and he can get other bonuses and items to boost it further. I LIKE the monk this way, and I think we should bring fighters UP to that kind of power level.
(On a side note, I have house ruled that no character can benefit from more than two "virtual size increases" at the same time. There are some builds that use 8 prestige classes (you can do a search for them) and get something like 28d8 damage or something ridiculous that no dm would allow. So, with this rule, there's no reason to try to find some perfect combination of monk, fighter, or prestige classes that would give 3, 4, or more "dice increases" because you can only go up 2 steps from your natural size from feats, class features, racial features etc., unless magic is actually used to give you a LITERAL size icnrease, such as an "enlarge" spell).
Now, on to my idea...
There should be fighter feats that work with class features (so they're available anytime after a certain level, to fighters only) that increase his offensive power directly.
Another thing that bugged me in 3e: Weapon Specialization and Greater Weapon Specialization provided damage bonuses, but whatabout the extra attacks per round granted to specialist fighters? What about the exclusive levels of masteries, up to grand master that were pretty much class-exclusive fighter powers? That was a big reason to specialize in 2e.
A lot of 3e players didn't necessarily think that the 3e version of Weapon Specs were a great investment of feats. Weapon specializations and masteries should be a class-defining feature again for fighters, much the way unamred damge is for monks, and rage is for barbarians. Nobody else can do what the fighter does, with his swords and his wits.
Just as the monk's unarmed damage improves with level and he can take "improved natural attack," and "empty hand mastery," the fighter should get a damage die increase on weapons he uses at certain levels and/or with certain fighter-only specialization feats. For example, a greatsword may do 2d6 in the hands of a level 1 fighter, but a level 10 fighter gets a damage die increase if he, for example, used his "weapon training" class feature on "blades" and takes a certain feat, and he gets another damage die increse when he gets "weapon mastery" at 20th level. Or, one could make weapon mastery a selectable feat with steep requirements, so he wouldn't necessarily have to wait until 20th level to get it.
Here are my suggested rules changes:
For example, let's redefine weapon specialization in the following way:
Weapon Specialization (fighter) - when a fighter chooses weapon sepcialization, he selects a weapon group that he has taken his Weapon Training class feature in. All weapons from that group now deal damage as if they were increased by one size category (damage dice increase). In addition, he does +2 damage.
Greater Weapon Specialization (fighter): Requirements: weapon training (in chosen weapon group), Weapon Specialization (in chosen weapon group) Weapon Mastery (in chosen weapon).
When a fighter selects his chosen weapon for Weapon Mastery at level 20 and gets the associative benefits, he can now use a feat to gain Greater Weapon Specialization, which provides another +2 to damage (total +4) that stacks with Weapon Specialization, Weapon training cumulative bonuses, AND another damage dice increase as if the weapon were one more size category larger.
Furthermore, whenever he is using that chosen weapon, he gets one more attack per round at his highest attack value.
Note that the new "weapon specialization" applies to a whole group of weapons, and the "weapon mastery" and new "greater weapon specialization" apply only to a single weapon from that group. All bonuses from feats, fighter weapon training, weapon mastery, weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization all stack.
He now gets 5 attacks per round at level 20 - the same number as a flurrying monk, and his base attack bonus is higher. A perfect two-weapon fighting master dual-wielding his weapon mastered/greater specialized weapons is now a lot more formidable than a monk flurrying with magical kamas, as he should be.
An INT or WIS requirement for weapon spec. and greater weapon spec. could be implemented, just like for certain combat maneuvers. This rewards fighters who choose brains over brawn only, so for example the cliche'd "borderline nonsentient half-orc point-buy fighter" is not necessarily the best way to go, if you're planning on making a great end-game fighter.
If you want to make the old weapon spec feats available to other classes, replace the regular "weapon specialization" and "Greater weapon specialization" as they are in the srd with some new feat that allows other characters to add a +2 damage bonus to melee attacks without the "fighter level 4" requirement; although in 3e, most people didn't spend a feat on weapon spec anyway.
Fighters should be able to master more than one weapon, I believe, but they will have to spend additoinal feats to do so. One weapon mastery feat is free at 20th level. This also eliminates the need for the "weapon master" prestige class, which was basically a fighter who got bonus weapon powers and maneuvers. I thought that's what a fighter was supposed to be, anyway.
A fighter so specced with a 2 handed sword would do a lot more damage with each attack, so let's say 4d6 plus str, plus weapon training cumulative bonuses, plus weapon specialization and greater weapon specialization bonuses, plus he's now doing an extra attack per round +20/+20/+15/+10/+5... that's 5 per round. 6 with haste. A lot of damage potential, especially for wiping out minions, when you consider extra attacks granted from feats like Cleave and Great Cleave. Plus, there's improved power attack, extra attacks from dual wielding skills (perfect two weapon fighting), Two-weapon Rend...
With these changes implemented, a level 20 fighter Weapon Master/Greater Weapon Specialist could undoubtedly become one of the most powerful single combatants in the game WITHOUT having to take 2 or more prestige classes, WITHOUT having to compromise his fighter-ness for something another class does better, and WITHOUT having to be dependent on clerics or wizards.
If you think these changes are extreme, let's not forget that compared to other characters at 20th level (and even way earlier than that), 3e dnd fighters can be "simulated" or "outclassed" at melee combat. Remember how clerics can cast a spell that gives them the base attack of a "high base attack class" of similar level, and can cast "greater magic weapon" to give them +5 gear. They can also get damage dice increases by elarging their size magically.
With the rules changes I suggest, they cannot duplicate the pure martial weapon skill of the master fighter, which is reflected in the inherent damage dice increases (2 steps at level 20) and extra attack per round even over other combat classes, which even other weapon-using warrior-types such as the barbarian and paladin can't do. This further sets the fighter apart from both his magical peers AND warrior bretheren.
Clerics being clerics, raging-feated barbarians, smiting/divine might Paladins, and monks using Unarmed attack mastery no longer make swordsmanship necessarily "obsolete" in the raw damage department, since weapon damage for fighters will scale (with certain feats) and get an extra attack like unarmed damage does for monks.
If we bring back meaningful weapon specializations, the fighter will have his own "flavor" and mystique about him, and we won't need to invent pseudo-magic to make him competitive at high levels. Perhaps the most significant impact is that he won't be a "splash class" anymore - that's the one thing that truly irritated me about 3e fighters.
Anyone else feel the same way?
Well Combat and Tactics simply expanded a bit on some information from older books as far as weapon specializations went. I believe it was the original Unearthed Arcana, but I could be wrong: I’m not going to rummage that one out to check right now.
The problem, I suspect, that most games spend an inordinate amount of time on personal combat - enough time so that everyone expects to be involved and to make a notable contribution. A rogues skills may be very important to the game, but few games spend an hour at a time making skill checks. A wizards spell research may be vital and take weeks in-game, but it often only takes a few minutes at the table. I could easily argue that a fighter SHOULD dominate combat the way the Cleric dominates healing and theological debates or the Rogue dominates picking locks and pockets at the duke's masked ball - but it will lead to both a perceived imbalance and a valid complaint: the game will wind up spend a lot more time on "fighter stuff" than on other characters shticks.
It might be better to spend some time looking at ways for fighter-types to have more to do outside of combat, just in case the game takes a five-session detour into diplomacy at court.
Still, if you want fighter-enhancements, there's an enormous array of weapons feats and such already out there in OGL world - and fighters have a fair supply of feats to spend on combat now. We usually use the combat enhancements chapter in Eclipse (Augment Attack, Block, Bonus Attack, Enhanced Strike, Imbuement, etc) and the weapon-themed Martial Arts (page 80) (which also require skill points, and so reward smarter fighters). Our players like using that book since they can download it for free, but there are plenty of others.
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Well, I don't know that I agree 100% with your mechanics, but I wholeheartedly agree that Fighters need to shine more. I've been a fighter fangirl since I started playing, and in 2e I was always disappointed that my fighter was superfluous in the group by level 6 or 7. 3e made Fighter a LOT cooler with the addition of feats, and I loved their flexibility, but by 10th or 12th level, I had most of the feats I could want and started eyeing prestige classes or rogue levels (although the new feats in PHB2 threw in some great new high-level feats). Ultimately, though, a 20th level Fighter had the same BAB as two other classes, and they could generally do mind-boggling things at 20th (like casting spells, ordering around animal sidekicks, and healing the group), while the fighter was still just doing base weapon damage with a few nifty tricks and an extra +4 damage from the two Weapon Spec feats.
I love your idea for having Weapon Spec effectively increase the size of the weapon. Not only does it give you that satisfying bigger die, but it also makes a fighter harder to disarm and possibly add some extra oomph to trip and overrun attempts. I think I'd drop the extra +2 damage if you bump up the damage die, though.
I also love the idea of incorporating more of the Weaponmaster prestige class into the base Fighter class, since that's effectively what they should be. And to that extent, I enjoy the new additions Paizo has been throwing in to enhance their attack and defense bonuses, but I would love to see some extra tricks for Fighters, anything from new maneuvers like blinding opponents, bumping up their damage, or getting re-rolls to team tactics and other "out-smarting" options. Something that bumps the pure martial nature a bit above those fighter-types who dabble with magic.
Here's a bit of a recap (and rules expansion) of the things I've suggested in the past for the Fighter to have.
These are all things that would be gained in between Feat levels, in addition to the weapon/armor bonuses (or replacing them if you think all these are too powerful).
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Combat Mastery
This combat maneuver does not provoke an attack of opportunity. If the Fighter also has the Improved feat for the combat Maneuver, he makes the attempt without penalty.
Example:
Bob the Fighter gets two attacks per round (+6 BAB). He has an attack bonus of +12/+7 (+6/+1 BAB, +4 Str, +1 masterwork weapon, +1 weapon focus) and a CMB of +10.
His first attack is successful and does damage, and so he decides to try and Bullrush him. He has the Improved Bullrush feat, so he makes his CMB roll at +12. He rolls well and succeeds and opts to move with his target (5ft step).
His second attack is also successful at +7 attack bonus, and does damage, so he tries to Trip. His CMB roll is only +5, since he doesn't have the Improved Trip feat yet. He is unsuccessful.
This should be a low level gain (3rd through 5th level). By itself, without any other feats, it's a nice chance at something extra on any successful attack. With the -5 penalty it's effectively like trying to do the maneuvers normally against a DC 20 + opponent's CMB, which will be pretty tough.
Since it takes feats to really expand on this ability, gaining it early means it'll grow into power with the Fighter spending his higher feats on the Improved ones. It also makes them more used.
Normally this would probably be a bad thing to have for every character to do, since it could slow down combat. Since it's only the Fighter, it simultaneously makes it less common (one person's gimmick), and makes the Fighter the unique class that can do it.
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Dauntless
Early level Bonus: +Will save against Fear.
Early level Bonus: As a free action, once per combat (or encounter, or day, or whatever), you can reroll a will save.
Low-Mid level Bonus: Immune to Demoralize effect of Intimidate skill.
Low-Mid level Bonus: Free action to reroll applies to anyone within hearing of the Fighter. (More times per combat/encounter per level?)
Mid-High level Bonus: Immune to fear effects.
Mid-High level Bonus: Reroll save can be done as an immediate action.
Mid-High level Bonus: As a new free action, can reduce the level of fear in allies within hearing distance by one level.
High level Bonus: Secondary free action eliminates fear in allies within hearing distance.
High level Bonus: Can eliminate fear in allies as an immediate action.
This is based on the idea that the Fighter is the front line guy who is going to stand toe-to-toe with the Giants and Dragons and other big things that make people go squish. The simple fact that they are brave enough to confront them should give them some kind of bonus against fears in general.
And when you have a buddy going up and taking the brunt of the scary action, and laughing it off, some of that rubs off on you. The Fighter essentially will be yelling things like "Don't worry guys, I'll handle this big oaf." or "We'll beat this dragon down like the last one!", etc.
Yeah, yeah.. "magical fear" and all that. But we are talking about 10th level plus abilities for the Fighter. He's getting to the point that he's superhuman anyways. Imagine Kratos from God of War yelling in defiance to stir your blood, and that's the kind of thing we should be seeing a Fighter doing for his allies.
Yes I know the Paladin has something like this, but his is divine given and immunity/bonus at early levels. Having a 2nd Combat type with fear bonuses isn't going to steal the Paladin's thunder.
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Combat Coordination
Basics:
X times per day (more times the more Fighter levels you have).
costs a move action for the Fighter
low level bonus, grants + to attack and/or damage
mid level bonus, grants a move or attack action to one ally
high level bonus, grants move or attack to all allies within a range
This is to emulate the Fighter being more of the combat tactician of the group. The Barbarian is pure combat damage, the Ranger is outdoorsey/tracking/skills combat, the Paladin is the protector/healing/divine focus. None of these people would really be as focused on combat tactics as the Fighter would, so this fits as being something he can do over the others.
These are abilities that were conceptually taken from the Commander class and feats written up for the E.N.Publishing game "War of the Burning Sky". In that campaign, they used feats based on the Leadership feat to do similar tricks, plus the Commander class for a few other concepts (like morale bonuses for allies to specific rolls). Making it a Fighter mechanic shouldn't step on the toes (or break OGL) since it'll use a different mechanic for this effect.
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These should be plenty to get the Fighter started for any in-combat uniqueness. It would provide both a unique ability in attack (CMB) and defense (fear), as well as making him more of a team player (tactics).
For out of combat stuff, I'm really not sure how best to expand it. If your game had Sanity or Reputation rules, the Fighter could be given a bonus in either of those areas.
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I'd probably bump his skills up to 4+int, and add a Knowledge (tactics) to the list (something like what's written here, only maybe just for the surprise/ambush/cover rules). Basically, use it for when you want to deal with larger battles, dropping hints/ideas for what the Fighter would recognize as what you'd be facing next (when dealing with a known foe, etc). Or to negate or create surprise situations, etc.
Also, add Perception as well, so that he's at least as good as the Barbarian for being the guard/noticing things. I'm not saying that the Fighter in 3.5e concept is a guard, I'm saying that the Fighter should be CHANGED so that he can be.
Lastly, if you want to make Charisma mean more for the Fighter, then you can add a few things into the stuff I've mentioned above.
Make the fear things go off Charisma for however many times per encounter/day (so like 1 + Charisma bonus per day).
Also, you can make the Combat Tactician work off Charisma in times per day.
He already has a skill that would benefit from it (Intimidate), so it's not like we are looking at slapping MAD onto him for nothing, rather, it'll somewhat benefit him to keep that +2 Charisma item, etc.
Between Knowledge Tactics, Perception and Intimidate, the Fighter should have plenty to contribute outside of combat as well, whether it's knowing how to create a surprise attack, dealing with one, or even social situations (Intimidate).
Here's a bit how the progression would look like (now that I've sat down and looked at it).
LVL Ability
1 Feat, Weapon Training
2 Feat, Dauntless (+2)
3 Armor Training, Combat Mastery
4 Feat, Dauntless (reroll)
5 Weapon Training, Combat Coordination (+1)
6 Feat, Dauntless (immune to Demoralize)
7 Armor Training, Combat Coordination (move action)
8 Feat, Dauntless (+4)
9 Weapon Training, Combat Coordination (+2)
10 Feat, Dauntless (ally reroll)
11 Armor Training, Combat Coordination (attack action)
12 Feat, Dauntless (immune to fear)
13 Weapon Training, Combat Coordination (+3)
14 Feat, Dauntless (reduce fear, 1 level)
15 Armor Training, Combat Coordination (30' radius)
16 Feat, Dauntless (reroll, immediate action)
17 Weapon Training, Combat Coordination (+4)
18 Feat, Dauntless (reduce fear, eliminate)
19 Armor Mastery, Dauntless (reduce fear, immediate action)
20 Feat, Weapon Mastery
This moves Weapon Training down in levels a notch. But you know what? I'm fine with that. Others give Rage and Track and Favored Enemy and Smite at the first levels... weapon training and will save bonus isn't that big an add on to two feats.