Issues with the Fighter Class...

[JohnnyKage]

Me and my group have been play testing this class alot lately using the Aplha 3.

The biggest issue is the Armor Training ability. We like the +1 AC bonuses but the bonuses to Armor penalty and Max Dex we find to be a little to much. If a character has a high eneough dexterity, it really gets over board especially when he starts doing flips in platemail.

This past week we changed armor traing to "defensive training: with the following rules:

Spoiler:

Defensive Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, the fighter learns to better avoid attacks. He learns new and better ways to defend himself with a variety mixed styles but not limited to dodge, parry or the use of his shield. The fighter gains a +1 dodge bonus to his AC and Reflex Saves. Every 4 levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), he gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to AC and Will saves.
A condition that makes the character lose his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes him lose this dodge bonus. The character must be aware of the attack to gain this bonus. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

This was also a good alternative for a fighter who wanted to be more along the lines of an archer with out having to play a ranger.

Other minor changes were just name changes do to feats used from other sources. Changes are as follows:

Spoiler:

Uncanny Toughness: At 19th level, the fighter at this point has been through so many battles that he has learned to ignore damage much like a Barbarian can. He gains damage reduction of 5/-. (Replaces "Armor Mastery").

Weapons Mastery to Weapon Grand Mastery as it conflicts with a feat of the same name. Being that this ability isn't given till 20th level, it made sense to have a better name to boot.

Thoughts?

[JohnnyKage]

Heres a idea i created that was just redesign to go along with the pathfinder fighter...I'm including it because it may make for a new addition to the PFHB.

Fighter Variant Templates: (New)
The Fighter variant template allows for an alternate type off fighter. A variant template substitutes one or more starting class abilities at 1st level. Class abilities not mentioned in the template remain unchanged from the core fighter class. All variant templates must be selected at character creation and cannot be changed once selected. Once a variant template has been chosen, you cannot multi-class between the core Fighter class and any other core variant template. Fighter variants are considered “fighters” for all game purposes unless otherwise stated.

Designer Note: Variant templates are an alternative to using prestige classes for minor class changes. They are also effective especially at character creation (1st level) when a prestige class makes do not apply and not having to create a totally new character class. The variant template is based on the old AD&D 2nd edition of character class kits. I see a character like "Drittz" being an Agile Warrior more than any other type of class created thus far (icluding prestige classes).

Agile Warrior:
Unlike the conventional Fighter, the Agile Warrior relies on his dexterity, speed and wits in combat, rather then brute strength. Agile Warriors make for great archers, swashbucklers, and two-weapon fighters as examples.

Abilities: Dexterity is very important, followed by Strength and Constitution.
Class Skills (Changes): Gains Acrobatics (Dex), the rest remains the same.
Class Features: (same as fighter except were noted):

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: An Agile Warrior is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with light and medium armors and light shields. He loses proficiency in heavy armor, heavy shields and the tower shield.

Weapon Finesse: The agile warrior gains this feat as a bonus at 1st level in addition to his regular bonus fighter feat.

Uncanny Defense (Ex): The agile warrior can add his Intelligence or Wisdom bonus modifier to his armor class against a single opponent in a given round if he is wearing light or no armor at all.
A condition that makes the character lose his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes him lose this dodge bonus. The character must be aware of the attack to gain this bonus. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.
Base Reflex Save Bonus: Changes from poor to good (PHB, page 22).

Special Disadvantages: Unlike the core fighter, the use of heavy armor or heavy shields (including the tower shield) prevents the agile warrior from using his defensive training ability (starting at 3rd level), because of his reliance on freedom of movement and dexterity.

This is still a work in progress. any helpful ideas would be appreciated.

[KaeYoss]

I don't think armour training is bad. Sure, the max dex and armour penalties are powerful, but the fighter can use it.

I personly don't like the idea of an unconditional class bonus to a single save - especially a weak one. Unnecessarily complicated. Just give him the good save.

I also think that armour training can work very well for archers - as good as, if not better than, your idea: With armour training, they can wear heavier armour while still getting everything out of their dexterity. As you say: They could jump around gracefully in full plate. Make it mithral and they can wear that metal like a second skin.

Weapon Mastery is called Weapon Mastery because there's no weapon mastery feat in the available rules, so they don't have to pander to that. In fact, they can't take those rules into consideration.

[JohnnyKage]

KaeYoss wrote:

I don't think armour training is bad. Sure, the max dex and armour penalties are powerful, but the fighter can use it.

I personly don't like the idea of an unconditional class bonus to a single save - especially a weak one. Unnecessarily complicated. Just give him the good save.

Weapon Mastery is called Weapon Mastery because there's no weapon mastery feat in the available rules, so they don't have to pander to that. In fact, they can't take those rules into consideration.

Im guess you mean "conditional class bonus"? The armor training is a conditional bonus, I just stated it. His armor doesnt get better just his training. A fighter caught up in a entanglement spell is not going to be able to take advantage of the bonus whether its defensive or armor training.

I know Pathfinder and PHB 3.5 do not have a bonus or feat called "weapon mastery" but other source books do that people may use. Hence the possibility of "Grand" mastery seems more fitting.

Changes made for Agile Warrior:

Spoiler:

Uncanny Defense (Ex): The agile warrior can add his Intelligence or Wisdom bonus modifier (which ever bonus is higher or a minimum +1 bonus) to his armor class against all attacks if he is wearing light or no armor at all.
A condition that makes the character lose his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class (if any) also makes him lose this dodge bonus. The character must be aware of the attack to gain this bonus. Also, dodge bonuses stack with each other, unlike most other types of bonuses.

[Kalis]

And when does the fighter get this ability? Also his strength and constitution are still his most important stats for a few reasons:
1. Weapon finesse doesn't add dex to damage
2. Being a mobile fighter means you need even more strength to make lower number of hits count
3. Even with the int or wis to ac, he still won't have the ac of a normal fighter unless the player was blessed by the gods when rolling stats, so you need constitution for hp.

[Iridal]

Fighters should be able to adjust his weapon training. This re-training should take some time. So while the wizard is crafting magic items, the fighter would be training. This would enable to change the designated weapon for any feat he has that applies only a simple weapon (such a Weapon Focus)

Always meeting the prerequisite for the feats, of course.

If the fighter finds a new weapon in a treasure would not have to sell it (because the new weapon becomes useless his feats). And the fighter is a master handling weapons.

[KaeYoss]

KaeYoss wrote:

I personly don't like the idea of an unconditional class bonus to a single save - especially a weak one. Unnecessarily complicated. Just give him the good save.

Im guess you mean "conditional class bonus"?

No, I do mean unconditional, i.e. one that always applies. Why give a class a weak save bonus but then give them a class ability that basically ups this to the strong save? Just go ahead and give them the strong save. Same outcome, but a lot less paperwork.

Not that I'm saying that the fighter should get a strong ref save, mind you.