Val Kilmer's . . . ? You know, the movie was so badly done that I've blocked it completely from my mind, you know, defense mechanisms against stupidity and all that.
We may not agree on literature, but our taste in Batman movies seems similar enough...
For the record, Cooper was a far more talented artist than Twain despite the fact that Twain is usually a (slightly) better read.-W. E. Ray
Them's fightin' words, Molech. Cooper was rehashing Sir Walter Scott's old material in an "American" setting. About as derivative as you can get. (And I was a great Cooper fan 30 years ago, but he could not hold my interest.)
Twain is one of the great voices of American literature, above and beyond being a gifted mimic of dialect and sharp observer.
No one takes Twain's criticism against the Romantics seriously. Even a little bit.
-W. E. Ray
Who's no-one? Twain had the windbag pegged and deflated him in a most amusing and memorable manner. If academia ignores him, its because they can't stand to see literature dissected in words of less than three syllables.
(Goodnight, guys, see ya tomorrow.)
G' night Molech.
I would have to disagree with Vic Mackey being categorized as Lawful Evil.
I would put him as Neutral or possibly Neutral Good.
He is out for himself first, but he brings no harm to innocents on purpose and when he does he rectifies the damage he’s done. Overall he is out to protect the innocent and punish criminals but he won’t let the law get in his way.
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Did they both have the Dirty old Bast***d PrC?As for Twain himself, I think Chaotic Snarky or possibly Magnificent Bastard would be his alignment, one shared only with George Carlin.
I think if the alignment in question is Magnificent Bastard, you may need to throw Ernest Hemingway and Benjamin Franklin in, too.
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I would have to disagree with Vic Mackey being categorized as Lawful Evil.
I would put him as Neutral or possibly Neutral Good.He is out for himself first, but he brings no harm to innocents on purpose and when he does he rectifies the damage he’s done. Overall he is out to protect the innocent and punish criminals but he won’t let the law get in his way.
In the first episode of the first show, he shoots an IA cop, fatally, IN THE FACE. He's also pretty damn crooked & brutal. (This is based on watching 4 seasons, BTW; if he gets much more virtuous in seasons 5 or 6, I'll give you N.) That isn't to say he doesn't have his moments. It was exceedingly satisfying to watch him and Glenn Close tear the underworld a new one in Season 4. As far as the other members of the Strike Team, I'd put Shane Vendrell at NE (utterly despicable; a racist bigot and no concern for the innocents he's supposed to be protecting, murders a close friend), Ronnie Gardocki at N (Goes along with the others, but doesn't do anything too terrible on his own) and Curtis "Lemonhead" Lemansky at NG (Really just wants to protect innocent people, but has no trouble roughing up bad guys if he has to; was kept out of the loop on the shooting in the first episode.)
Anyway, if I was going to build Vic Mackey as an NPC, I'd give him a LE alignment and the touch of benevolence feat from Champions of Ruin (and make him with rogue levels). I'm more than willing to hear more arguments, but that one utterly cold-blooded murder in Episode 1, Season 1 is a pretty heavy thing...
You mean the section where the story stops and then there is a 70 page lecture on why a whale is absolutely and undoubtedly a giant fish? Yeah, he makes a lot of good points...This is truly sad.
You just don't get it. But don't feel too bad about it; most folks are just as sad -- equally unable to get literature.
-W. E. Ray
Lol not so fast, I am an enemy of prejudice so I feel obliged to retort. That is my favorite passage in Moby Dick, <-. I was merely pointing out its patent falsity. Another good example of that would be Death in the Afternoon (Hemingway), scientifically loose, but as a expression of man's attempt to understand and make sense of his world, a masrterpiece, my take on a few alignments of fiction:
Lawful Good: Don Quixote
Lawful Evil: Sgt Barnes (Platoon Film)
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My son's new favorite show has some great examples of archetypal alignments:
Lawful Good: Rock Lee and Might Guy
Lawful Neutral: Neji
Lawful Evil: Orchimaru
Neutral Good: Kakashi
True Netral: Shikamaru
Neutral Evil: Itachi
Chaotic Good: Naruto
Chaotic Neutral: Tsunade
Chaotic Evil: Gaara (while possessed)
No one takes Twain's criticism against the Romantics seriously.
I concede I am not well read enough to argue this point. As a fan of Twain (if reading A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, the Cliff notes on Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and many of his quotes on various quotations websites qualifies me as a fan) allow me to say this, “Hey!”
As a fan of Twain (if reading A Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court, the Cliff notes on Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and many of his quotes on various quotations websites qualifies me as a fan) allow me to say this, “Hey!”
I'm not sure "fan" is the right word, but I've read (and enjoyed) Connecticut Yankee, Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn, and Innocents Abroad, plus various other tidbits (a lot of pithy quotes attributed him aren't actually his, though, I'm learning). Anyway, enjoying his work doesn't mean I have to let him ruin my enjoyment of other people's work. I still like Cooper just fine.
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I think if the alignment in question is Magnificent Bastard, you may need to throw Ernest Hemingway and Benjamin Franklin in, too.Did they both have the Dirty old Bast***d PrC?As for Twain himself, I think Chaotic Snarky or possibly Magnificent Bastard would be his alignment, one shared only with George Carlin.
I know jack about Hemingway, but I'll concede that Ben Franklin rates MB status. Unlike most 'alignments,' it seems that Magnificent Bastards are also really, really smart.
Anyway, enjoying his work doesn't mean I have to let him ruin my enjoyment of other people's work.
Fair enough. I always hated how Twain went on and on about how I should not read Dumas.
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Oh yeah, "BA" means "Bad Actor" -- as in, too F*ing pathetic of an acting job to warrant an alignment.
I totally knew that's what you meant when I saw BA next to his name. :)
Frankly, I'd give Kilmer the same rating. He's a good actor, but he didn't even *try* in that movie. He got out-acted by Chris O'Donnell, whose acting chops consist of really good teeth.
I wonder what sort alignments the Firefly crew would get.
Mal - Chaotic Good
Zoe - Neutral
Wash - Neutral Good
Inari - Lawful Neutral (with Good tendencies)
Shepard Book - Neutral Good (with Evil tendencies?)
Jayne - Neutral Evil
Kaylee - Neutral Good
Simon - Lawful Good
River - Blue! Fish! Twenty-Three!
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Pretty much everyone from Kill Bill: Lawful Evil.
Now, now, some of them were Neutral Evil (the dude who shot and buried her) and some seemed distinctly Chaotic Evil (the chain-and-spiky-mace wielding schoolgirl-dressed second of the Crazy 88).
But yeah, otherwise, not a whole lot of nice people in that film. Which kind of describes every Tarantino film, ever. (Although the 'fallen priest' in Dusk Till Dawn seemed like a nice guy, if somewhat bitter and jaded.)
I always hated how Twain went on and on about how I should not read Dumas.
I love Dumas (Pere, anyway)!
Which kind of describes every Tarantino film, ever. (Although the 'fallen priest' in Dusk Till Dawn seemed like a nice guy, if somewhat bitter and jaded.)
That's because DtD is a Rodriguez film, not a Tarantino one. Just because QT is in a movie, doesn't make it one of his movies.
But Zoe (Death Proof) is as sweet as sugar. CG all the way!
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Now, now, some of them were Neutral Evil (the dude who shot and buried her) and some seemed distinctly Chaotic Evil (the chain-and-spiky-mace wielding schoolgirl-dressed second of the Crazy 88).
But yeah, otherwise, not a whole lot of nice people in that film. Which kind of describes every Tarantino film, ever. (Although the 'fallen priest' in Dusk Till Dawn seemed like a nice guy, if somewhat bitter and jaded.)
True, true. Pai Mei and Hanzo were probably Lawful Neutral as well. There are a few good characters in Tarantino movies (like the cop in Reservoir Dogs), but they are few and far between, it's true.
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Which kind of describes every Tarantino film, ever. (Although the 'fallen priest' in Dusk Till Dawn seemed like a nice guy, if somewhat bitter and jaded.)That's because DtD is a Rodriguez film, not a Tarantino one. Just because QT is in a movie, doesn't make it one of his movies.
But Zoe (Death Proof) is as sweet as sugar. CG all the way!
I just knew you were going to bring up Zoe Bell... :)
I just knew you were going to bring up Zoe Bell... :)
What can I say. One-track mind.
Pai Mei and Hanzo were probably Lawful Neutral as well.
With Mei tending Evil and Hanzo tending Good (at least at this point in his life).
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Pai Mei and Hanzo were probably Lawful Neutral as well.With Mei tending Evil and Hanzo tending Good (at least at this point in his life).
Yeah, I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to bring in past alignments and tendencies into it, but if I were to do so, I would agree completely with you.
In that sense, the Bride would be somwhere between Lawful Neutral and Lawful Evil at the point we see her in the movies. It's more about seeking justice and less about killing for money.
Also, Buck is just plain ol' Disgusting Evil.
This site may help with finding alignments:
I live about a half hour north of there.
Like Pottersville? Around there? (Not a stalker... just a former New Yorker).
IIRC, Shiny lives in Ticonderoga.
(Speaking of which, Shiny, if you every run into my grandfather, say hi for me.)
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Ok: from Terry Goodkind's sword of truth:
Richard: CG (doesn't want to know or care about the laws of magic)
Zedd: NG (Can quote law and percidents to prove points, but not afraid to make new ones through action if that is the best way to go, possibly chaotic tenancies)
Mother Confessor: LG (She does her job, because its the law, even though she is sorry for those she uses her power on)
the Dreamwalker: LE (nuetral-evil tendancies by perverting people's views of religion and their place in the world to get more power and slaves and land, so he can ultimately live forever. And using his power as it was ment to be used - which perverts the right to privacy)
IIRC, Shiny lives in Ticonderoga.
That's practically in Vermont! Poor fellow!
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IIRC, Shiny lives in Ticonderoga.That's practically in Vermont! Poor fellow!
Slow-as-f@#$ Vermont drivers suck almost as bad as the New Jersey f!@*ers that want to know where the f++~ing pencil factory is. For those of you who don't know, Ticonderoga pencils have been made in Mexico for the past twenty years.
Ticonderoga pencils have been made in Mexico for the past twenty years.
True, but you can get a nice tour at the old graphite mines.
Batman? Who's Batman?Ah yes.
*Awaits the heated discussions regarding Batman's alignment*
http://spd.fotologs.net/photo/61/24/16/fat_and_furious/1208825480_f.jpg
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Which Batman?
Michael Keaton's is LG.
Val Kilmer's . . . ? You know, the movie was so badly done that I've blocked it completely from my mind, you know, defense mechanisms against stupidity and all that.
Comic Book portrayals -- I have to admit ignorance though I suspect it changes from decade to decade and further, that the early stuff is far more sinister -- LNish, perhaps.
Adam West, LG
George Clooney, BA
And I haven't seen any others.
Michael Keaton - LG
Val Kilmer - LG / BD (Bad Directing)
Adam West - A very campy / ambiguously gay LG
George Clooney - LG / BA
Christian Bale - LN
Detective comics early days - LG
Mid-DC era - LG
Modern / 80's DC - LN
Frank Miller's Batman - Lawful Bitter
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linkBatman? Who's Batman?Ah yes.
*Awaits the heated discussions regarding Batman's alignment*
linked
Lawful Evil: Sgt Barnes (Platoon Film)
Totally. I based this LE fighter character <- partially on Barnes.
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Anyway, enjoying his work doesn't mean I have to let him ruin my enjoyment of other people's work.
Fair enough. I always hated how Twain went on and on about how I should not read Dumas.
Music to my ears, Court Fool. Twain is quite popular for a reason; Cooper is somewhat unpopular for a reason.
Twain was right, though, one should not read Dumas!
Of course, his attacks against Dumas are really just his attacks against Romanticism in general, just as are his remarks against Cooper. The difference, of course, is that Cooper really was a good novelist (even though I never really liked reading him -- and Twain strongly disliked Romanticism) while Dumas was not much more than a hack who had a couple nifty story ideas.
-W. E. Ray
Music to my ears, Court Fool.
Actually, you switched our quotes, but that's OK. I still like Dumas. Hack or not, find me another classic revenge story with the same emotional impact as Count of Monte Cristo (the book, not the lame movie versions). In terms of sheer enjoyment, he's hard to beat (like Edgar Rice Burroughs -- no one would confuse him with fine literature, but a person who doen't enjoy his stories must be totally lacking a sense of adventure).
It surprises me that some of you think Batman is lawful, considering that he is a terrorist vigilante.(A terrorist is an individual who uses violence, terror, and intimidation to achieve a result. A vigilante is someone who takes the law into his own hands.) Yes, he sometimes works with established authority, particularly law enforcement, but he plays by his own rules. The car chase in 'Batman Begins' is coming to mind here. The guy speeding away from the police, particularly as the cop cars flip over (as I recall) is anything but lawful.
Lawful doesn't mean you can't break the law. Batman is lawful because he seeks to place a uniform code of justice and morality on everyone, namely his own. But I'll let it die there, because, as my link demonstrates, Batman can be argued to have any alignment.
Also, Batman is not a terrorist. Quite the opposite, he tries to instil hope and confidence in the populace, not terror. The Joker is a terrorist, because he lives to create terror, fear, and chaos.
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Music to my ears, Court Fool.Actually, you switched our quotes, but that's OK. I still like Dumas. Hack or not, find me another classic revenge story with the same emotional impact as Count of Monte Cristo (the book, not the lame movie versions). In terms of sheer enjoyment, he's hard to beat (like Edgar Rice Burroughs -- no one would confuse him with fine literature, but a person who doen't enjoy his stories must be totally lacking a sense of adventure).
I must say, though, that "The Count of Monte Cristo" had quite the disappointing ending. Instead of the bell-curved Greek tragedy one would expect, you instead get this weird distorted sine curve of a plot.
Everyone should have died. Horribly.
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Batman is not a terrorist. Quite the opposite, he tries to instil hope and confidence in the populace, not terror. The Joker is a terrorist, because he lives to create terror, fear, and chaos.
This is where everything gets gray... if you let your reputation precede you when fighting crime, so that just seeing your symbol is enough to make the common crimials run in fear, leaving only the big bad guy to face you, is this good work or terrorism? That bat signal, made to instill confidence in the populace, or fear in the enemies thereof ?
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Batman is not a terrorist. Quite the opposite, he tries to instil hope and confidence in the populace, not terror. The Joker is a terrorist, because he lives to create terror, fear, and chaos.This is where everything gets gray... if you let your reputation precede you when fighting crime, so that just seeing your symbol is enough to make the common crimials run in fear, leaving only the big bad guy to face you, is this good work or terrorism? That bat signal, made to instill confidence in the populace, or fear in the enemies thereof ?
I'll let this tought percolate for a bit:
Kind of like how police officers wear badges to identify themselves: the law-abiding citizens run to them, the criminals run away.
Terrorists are indescriminate in their targets, choosing only those that would gain them the most effect on the general populace towards the achievement of their agenda. Batman's agenda is protecting people, so he deals with criminals as they come.