paizo.com Recent Posts in Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBpaizo.com Recent Posts in Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMB2012-11-15T20:32:17Z2012-11-15T20:32:17ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBShisumohttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#502008-07-27T17:22:37Z2008-07-27T17:22:37Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gabriel Domingues wrote:</div><blockquote> Remember that a rogue can use Escape Artist Skill to escape from a grapple, and that the Escape Artist skill has a better progression than Fighter's BAB (Escape Artist = rogue´s character level + 3).</blockquote><p>Escape Artist is based on Dex though, and characters in a grapple suffer a Dex penalty. Escape Artist is also a skill that tends to get minimalized relative to most other skills, since it's generally less useful.Gabriel Domingues wrote:Remember that a rogue can use Escape Artist Skill to escape from a grapple, and that the Escape Artist skill has a better progression than Fighter's BAB (Escape Artist = rogue´s character level + 3).
Escape Artist is based on Dex though, and characters in a grapple suffer a Dex penalty. Escape Artist is also a skill that tends to get minimalized relative to most other skills, since it's generally less useful.Shisumo2008-07-27T17:22:37ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#492008-07-27T17:17:59Z2008-07-27T17:17:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gabriel Domingues wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Remember that a rogue can use Escape Artist Skill to escape from a grapple, and that the Escape Artist skill has a better progression than Fighter's BAB (Escape Artist = rogue´s character level + 3).</p>
<p>Also, a rogue who really wants to stay out from grapplings, can take the skill focus feat to boost his Escape Artist skill even more, gainning an additional +3 bonus (for a total skill bonus equal to his Character level + 6).</p>
<p>You also have reffered to the problem of creatures that are not going to have those maneuver feats. It´s an easy problem to solve. Since most creatures that relly on grapple maneuvers normally have the "IMPROVED GRAB" special ability, just let the "Improved Grab" provide a +4 bonus on grapple checks. With this little tweak your problem is solved. </blockquote><p>ok, use a wizard instead of a rogue in the example then.
<p>The +4 for Improved Grab was indeed suggested on this thread - it is pretty much the reason the thread was started. I think its a good idea and was trying to lobby support for it.</p>
<p>Thanks
<br />
Robert</p>Gabriel Domingues wrote:Remember that a rogue can use Escape Artist Skill to escape from a grapple, and that the Escape Artist skill has a better progression than Fighter's BAB (Escape Artist = rogue´s character level + 3).
Also, a rogue who really wants to stay out from grapplings, can take the skill focus feat to boost his Escape Artist skill even more, gainning an additional +3 bonus (for a total skill bonus equal to his Character level + 6).
You also have reffered to the problem of...Robert Brambley2008-07-27T17:17:59ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBGabriel Domingueshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#482008-07-25T16:41:10Z2008-07-25T16:39:30Z<p>Remember that a rogue can use Escape Artist Skill to escape from a grapple, and that the Escape Artist skill has a better progression than Fighter's BAB (Escape Artist = rogue´s character level + 3).</p>
<p>Also, a rogue who really wants to stay out from grapplings, can take the skill focus feat to boost his Escape Artist skill even more, gainning an additional +3 bonus (for a total skill bonus equal to his Character level + 6).</p>
<p>You also have reffered to the problem of creatures that are not going to have those maneuver feats. It´s an easy problem to solve. Since most creatures that relly on grapple maneuvers normally have the "IMPROVED GRAB" special ability, just let the "Improved Grab" provide a +4 bonus on grapple checks. With this little tweak your problem is solved.</p>Remember that a rogue can use Escape Artist Skill to escape from a grapple, and that the Escape Artist skill has a better progression than Fighter's BAB (Escape Artist = rogue´s character level + 3).
Also, a rogue who really wants to stay out from grapplings, can take the skill focus feat to boost his Escape Artist skill even more, gainning an additional +3 bonus (for a total skill bonus equal to his Character level + 6).
You also have reffered to the problem of creatures that are not going...Gabriel Domingues2008-07-25T16:39:30ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#472008-07-25T16:01:34Z2008-07-25T16:01:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Gabriel Domingues wrote:</div><blockquote><p> In my opinion you could keep CMB base DC as 15.</p>
<p>In the other hand, you could rise the Maneuver Feat bonus from +2 to +4 (as they already are in D&D 3.5).</p>
<p>As a Result you would have a <b>Base DC 15</b> for untrained characters attempting combat maneuvers, ...</p>
<p>AND... a <b>Base DC 11</b> for trained characters attempting combat maneuvers with the specific feats (DC 15 -4 from the feat = DC 11). </blockquote><p>Wow, this post looks familiar..... ;-)
<p>I'll reiterate - that this doesn't really help the issue of the DC being to high - it just gives a bigger boost to those who take a feat - which of course favors the fighter even more since he has so many feats to burn.</p>
<p>It doesn't help at all most people and creatures since most are not going to have those feats.</p>
<p>A rogue for instance would probably never have Improved Grapple. If something grappled him that had the feat - not only is the DC quite difficult for the rogue to try and escape, but the feat gives an even bigger bonus to the attacker to be successful against that rogue and sealing his fate.</p>
<p>Robert</p>Gabriel Domingues wrote:In my opinion you could keep CMB base DC as 15.
In the other hand, you could rise the Maneuver Feat bonus from +2 to +4 (as they already are in D&D 3.5).
As a Result you would have a Base DC 15 for untrained characters attempting combat maneuvers, ...
AND... a Base DC 11 for trained characters attempting combat maneuvers with the specific feats (DC 15 -4 from the feat = DC 11).
Wow, this post looks familiar..... ;-) I'll reiterate - that this doesn't really help...Robert Brambley2008-07-25T16:01:33ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBGabriel Domingueshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#462008-07-25T14:15:45Z2008-07-25T13:40:20Z<p>In my opinion you could keep CMB base DC as 15.</p>
<p>In the other hand, you could rise the Maneuver Feat bonus from +2 to +4 (as they already are in D&D 3.5).</p>
<p>As a Result you would have a <b>Base DC 15</b> for untrained characters attempting combat maneuvers, ...</p>
<p>AND... a <b>Base DC 11</b> for trained characters attempting combat maneuvers with the specific feats (DC 15 -4 from the feat = DC 11).</p>In my opinion you could keep CMB base DC as 15.
In the other hand, you could rise the Maneuver Feat bonus from +2 to +4 (as they already are in D&D 3.5).
As a Result you would have a Base DC 15 for untrained characters attempting combat maneuvers, ...
AND... a Base DC 11 for trained characters attempting combat maneuvers with the specific feats (DC 15 -4 from the feat = DC 11).Gabriel Domingues2008-07-25T13:40:20ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#452008-07-24T21:36:46Z2008-07-24T21:36:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Pax Veritas wrote:</div><blockquote> I hope this request is appropriate. Can someone provide where we're at in this thread in terms of what the going consensus seems to be? The CMB is a very important Pathfinder innovation to me. As a DM I find this tool to be a centerpiece of the "fix-a-few-3.5-rules" approach PAIZO is taking. This is something I'm quite proud of. I want to jump in but am unsure where this thread places the discussion... can someone summarize? </blockquote><p>I'll try; to summarize:
<p>Most seem to agree DC 15 is too high. Most seem to think that 10-12 is more appropriate. Most seem to think that creatures built to grapple with tentacles and/or have Improved Grab feature should have a bonus when grappling.</p>
<p>Most believe the size bonuses for large are a little low - but some argue +4 is appropriate (as it is in 3.5) and others argue that +2 is more appropriate.</p>
<p>Regardless - the discussion has been mostly about testimonies that we've experienced using the rules as written and what steps we've taken or suggested in improving them.</p>
<p>I'm sure Paizo has no intention of removing the CMB mechanic as it is very game-friendly.</p>
<p>Robert</p>Pax Veritas wrote:I hope this request is appropriate. Can someone provide where we're at in this thread in terms of what the going consensus seems to be? The CMB is a very important Pathfinder innovation to me. As a DM I find this tool to be a centerpiece of the "fix-a-few-3.5-rules" approach PAIZO is taking. This is something I'm quite proud of. I want to jump in but am unsure where this thread places the discussion... can someone summarize?
I'll try; to summarize: Most seem to agree DC 15...Robert Brambley2008-07-24T21:36:46ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBPax Veritashttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#442008-07-24T20:41:17Z2008-07-24T20:41:17Z<p>I hope this request is appropriate. Can someone provide where we're at in this thread in terms of what the going consensus seems to be? The CMB is a very important Pathfinder innovation to me. As a DM I find this tool to be a centerpiece of the "fix-a-few-3.5-rules" approach PAIZO is taking. This is something I'm quite proud of. I want to jump in but am unsure where this thread places the discussion... can someone summarize?</p>I hope this request is appropriate. Can someone provide where we're at in this thread in terms of what the going consensus seems to be? The CMB is a very important Pathfinder innovation to me. As a DM I find this tool to be a centerpiece of the "fix-a-few-3.5-rules" approach PAIZO is taking. This is something I'm quite proud of. I want to jump in but am unsure where this thread places the discussion... can someone summarize?Pax Veritas2008-07-24T20:41:17ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBDan Davishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#432008-07-24T20:33:32Z2008-07-24T20:33:31Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Robert Brambley wrote:</div><blockquote> at +4 it gives a CR 3 ogre a +12 to their CMB Thats a DC 27 to affect them at all. in order for a 3rd level party to affect the ogre, it would require a 19 or 20 by even the strongest person in the party!</blockquote><p>Using my rules, an ogre's CM DC would be 15 base, +3 BAB, +5 Str, +4 size for a total of 27. A 3rd level fighter's CMB would be +3 BAB, +3 Str (or so), +2 if the ogre kept his weapon in hand, for +8. So you're right; the fighter would need a 19 or 20 to grapple him, so yes, it's nearly impossible.
<p>Then again, when you consider that an average D&D human is 5' 9", 125 lbs. and that an average ogre is 9' 6", 625 lbs., would you expect the human to be able to grab and hold the ogre? I don't think so. Not without A LOT of training (which in D&D terms means high level).</p>Robert Brambley wrote:at +4 it gives a CR 3 ogre a +12 to their CMB Thats a DC 27 to affect them at all. in order for a 3rd level party to affect the ogre, it would require a 19 or 20 by even the strongest person in the party!
Using my rules, an ogre's CM DC would be 15 base, +3 BAB, +5 Str, +4 size for a total of 27. A 3rd level fighter's CMB would be +3 BAB, +3 Str (or so), +2 if the ogre kept his weapon in hand, for +8. So you're right; the fighter would need a 19 or 20 to grapple him, so...Dan Davis2008-07-24T20:33:31ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBBMhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#422008-07-24T02:13:28Z2008-07-24T02:13:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Robert Brambley wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Dan Davis wrote:</div><blockquote> I give creatures the same bonus to CMB and CM DC for size as they get under 3.5; +4 for large, +8 for huge, etc. I also give a bonus of +2 to the CMB if you attempt a grapple against someone who doesn't have both hands free (they can drop what they're holding as a free action to negate the bonus). </blockquote><p>Personally I think that amount of a bonus is too steep for the CMB mechanic. +2 increments seems to be much better in balance.
<p>at +4 it gives a CR 3 ogre a +12 to their CMB Thats a DC 27 to affect them at all. in order for a 3rd level party to affect the ogre, it would require a 19 or 20 by even the strongest person in the party! </p>
<p>On the flip side, the ogre only needs to roll a 10 to affect the party's strongest foe. </p>
<p>Compare that to the grapple of 3.5; the 20 str fighter in the party would have +8 grapple vs the +12 grapple of the ogre. meaning that the fighter could potentially affect the ogre every round provided the ogre didn't roll a 16+ (meaning only a 25% chance of eliminating the fighters chances).</p>
<p>That all being said: I do like the +2 to the DC for not having both hands free.</p>
<p>Robert </blockquote><p>Yeah, adding larger numbers doesn't really fix the problem, and really in all truth, makes the problem worse. See the above link in my post for why.
<p>As for the base number, I could deal with a 11. That is a flat 50/50 chance of beating someone with the same bonus as you.</p>Robert Brambley wrote:Dan Davis wrote: I give creatures the same bonus to CMB and CM DC for size as they get under 3.5; +4 for large, +8 for huge, etc. I also give a bonus of +2 to the CMB if you attempt a grapple against someone who doesn't have both hands free (they can drop what they're holding as a free action to negate the bonus).
Personally I think that amount of a bonus is too steep for the CMB mechanic. +2 increments seems to be much better in balance. at +4 it gives a CR 3 ogre a...BM2008-07-24T02:13:27ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#412008-07-24T01:19:18Z2008-07-24T01:19:17Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Dan Davis wrote:</div><blockquote> I give creatures the same bonus to CMB and CM DC for size as they get under 3.5; +4 for large, +8 for huge, etc. I also give a bonus of +2 to the CMB if you attempt a grapple against someone who doesn't have both hands free (they can drop what they're holding as a free action to negate the bonus). </blockquote><p>Personally I think that amount of a bonus is too steep for the CMB mechanic. +2 increments seems to be much better in balance.
<p>at +4 it gives a CR 3 ogre a +12 to their CMB Thats a DC 27 to affect them at all. in order for a 3rd level party to affect the ogre, it would require a 19 or 20 by even the strongest person in the party! </p>
<p>On the flip side, the ogre only needs to roll a 10 to affect the party's strongest foe. </p>
<p>Compare that to the grapple of 3.5; the 20 str fighter in the party would have +8 grapple vs the +12 grapple of the ogre. meaning that the fighter could potentially affect the ogre every round provided the ogre didn't roll a 16+ (meaning only a 25% chance of eliminating the fighters chances).</p>
<p>That all being said: I do like the +2 to the DC for not having both hands free.</p>
<p>Robert</p>Dan Davis wrote:I give creatures the same bonus to CMB and CM DC for size as they get under 3.5; +4 for large, +8 for huge, etc. I also give a bonus of +2 to the CMB if you attempt a grapple against someone who doesn't have both hands free (they can drop what they're holding as a free action to negate the bonus).
Personally I think that amount of a bonus is too steep for the CMB mechanic. +2 increments seems to be much better in balance. at +4 it gives a CR 3 ogre a +12 to their CMB Thats a...Robert Brambley2008-07-24T01:19:17ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBDan Davishttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#402008-07-23T20:59:02Z2008-07-23T20:59:02Z<p>I give creatures the same bonus to CMB and CM DC for size as they get under 3.5; +4 for large, +8 for huge, etc. I also give a bonus of +2 to the CMB if you attempt a grapple against someone who doesn't have both hands free (they can drop what they're holding as a free action to negate the bonus).</p>I give creatures the same bonus to CMB and CM DC for size as they get under 3.5; +4 for large, +8 for huge, etc. I also give a bonus of +2 to the CMB if you attempt a grapple against someone who doesn't have both hands free (they can drop what they're holding as a free action to negate the bonus).Dan Davis2008-07-23T20:59:02ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#392008-07-23T19:07:31Z2008-07-23T19:07:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kirth Gersen wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Robert Brambley wrote:</div><blockquote> I agree with you that 15 is too high. that was one element of my original thoughts. For my games, I've been using 12 + CMB, and it seesm to work quite well. We did try 10 but it was too easy to succeed; 15 was too hard to succeed. 12 was a good medium that we found.</blockquote>Why not 11 + CMB, to exactly match the caster level dispel check formula? Yeah, it's a little low, but I'm a sucker for consistency in the rules. </blockquote><p>Good point, Kirth, and I won't begrudge you for you being a sucker for consitency.
<p>That being said - as devil's advocate, 10+ is more of a precedent on many mechanics than 11 by far.</p>
<p>Taking 10
<br />
DC of concentration
<br />
DC to save vs all effects are 10+ X,Y
<br />
Knowledge check DCs.
<br />
etc.</p>
<p>that being said - I think 10 would be too easy. </p>
<p>Robert</p>Kirth Gersen wrote:Robert Brambley wrote: I agree with you that 15 is too high. that was one element of my original thoughts. For my games, I've been using 12 + CMB, and it seesm to work quite well. We did try 10 but it was too easy to succeed; 15 was too hard to succeed. 12 was a good medium that we found.
Why not 11 + CMB, to exactly match the caster level dispel check formula? Yeah, it's a little low, but I'm a sucker for consistency in the rules. Good point, Kirth, and I won't begrudge...Robert Brambley2008-07-23T19:07:30ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#382008-07-23T19:04:59Z2008-07-23T19:04:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">veector wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Another solution is to leave the CMB check the way it is and add a new feat for tentacle monsters ala...</p>
<p>Multi-Grapple - Receive a +5 Circumstance bonus to any grapple checks due to having more than two appendages. </blockquote><p>Thats the wrong approach IMO. Thats requiring a creature to spend a feat just to receive something thats already part of their physical make up.
<p>Does a lion need to use a feat to Rake? Does an elf need to spend a feat to automatically notice secret door due to its uncanny alertness? Does a dwarf need to spend a feat to remain stable on its feet due to its short and stocky build? Does a purple worm need to spend a feat to swallow something due to its enormous mouth diameter?</p>
<p>These are provided as 'given' due to traits and characteristics of their species.</p>
<p>I dont see why an Otyugh, or an giant Octopus, or a giant constrictor snake or a grell would need to spend a feat just to get a bonus based on something it was born and 'evolved' to be capable of doing.</p>
<p>Robert</p>veector wrote:Another solution is to leave the CMB check the way it is and add a new feat for tentacle monsters ala...
Multi-Grapple - Receive a +5 Circumstance bonus to any grapple checks due to having more than two appendages.
Thats the wrong approach IMO. Thats requiring a creature to spend a feat just to receive something thats already part of their physical make up. Does a lion need to use a feat to Rake? Does an elf need to spend a feat to automatically notice secret door due to its...Robert Brambley2008-07-23T19:04:59ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBveectorhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#372008-07-23T11:46:04Z2008-07-23T11:46:04Z<p>Another solution is to leave the CMB check the way it is and add a new feat for tentacle monsters ala...</p>
<p>Multi-Grapple - Receive a +5 Circumstance bonus to any grapple checks due to having more than two appendages.</p>Another solution is to leave the CMB check the way it is and add a new feat for tentacle monsters ala...
Multi-Grapple - Receive a +5 Circumstance bonus to any grapple checks due to having more than two appendages.veector2008-07-23T11:46:04ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBKirth Gersenhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#362008-07-22T22:50:58Z2008-07-22T22:50:06Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Robert Brambley wrote:</div><blockquote> I agree with you that 15 is too high. that was one element of my original thoughts. For my games, I've been using 12 + CMB, and it seesm to work quite well. We did try 10 but it was too easy to succeed; 15 was too hard to succeed. 12 was a good medium that we found.</blockquote><p>Why not 11 + CMB, to exactly match the caster level dispel check formula? Yeah, it's a little low, but I'm a sucker for consistency in the rules.Robert Brambley wrote:I agree with you that 15 is too high. that was one element of my original thoughts. For my games, I've been using 12 + CMB, and it seesm to work quite well. We did try 10 but it was too easy to succeed; 15 was too hard to succeed. 12 was a good medium that we found.
Why not 11 + CMB, to exactly match the caster level dispel check formula? Yeah, it's a little low, but I'm a sucker for consistency in the rules.Kirth Gersen2008-07-22T22:50:06ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#352008-07-22T22:10:07Z2008-07-22T22:10:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">BM wrote:</div><blockquote></p>
<p>If the DC was set at 10+CMB in the First Post's example, the Otyugh would have needed a 12 to grapple the Half-Orc (10+7-5=12). If the Half-Orc was grappled, he would need a 8 (10+5-7) to break free. In comparison, if the DC was set at 15, he would have needed a 13 less then a 50/50 chance against a foe that he is better then. And in later rounds, the Otyugh would need a 7 to continue the grapple, where if the DC was 15, he would need a 12 to continue the grapple.</p>
<p>At 15 the numbers needed are just too high. </blockquote><p>I agree with you that 15 is too high. that was one element of my original thoughts. For my games, I've been using 12 + CMB, and it seesm to work quite well. We did try 10 but it was too easy to succeed; 15 was too hard to succeed. 12 was a good medium that we found.
<p>Robert</p>BM wrote:If the DC was set at 10+CMB in the First Post's example, the Otyugh would have needed a 12 to grapple the Half-Orc (10+7-5=12). If the Half-Orc was grappled, he would need a 8 (10+5-7) to break free. In comparison, if the DC was set at 15, he would have needed a 13 less then a 50/50 chance against a foe that he is better then. And in later rounds, the Otyugh would need a 7 to continue the grapple, where if the DC was 15, he would need a 12 to continue the grapple.
At 15 the numbers...Robert Brambley2008-07-22T22:10:07ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBBMhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#342008-07-22T19:57:55Z2008-07-22T19:57:54Z<p>I think that we're looking at it the wrong way. From my experiences with CMB and grapple <a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderRPG/feedback/alpha3/combatMagic/jasonSomeProblemsWithCMBAndGrapplingAndFixesForThem" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">here</a> I think the problem isn't so much with the monsters but with the base DC. By the time that grapple monsters have a big enough bonus to be able to reliably grapple foes, the chance for a PC to escape goes down to 5%. Get a +5 advantage on your opponent in CMB and you will win anything against you and have 50/50 chance winning anything against your opponent. 15 is too high for the base DC. It needs to be 10+CMB.</p>
<p>If the DC was set at 10+CMB in the First Post's example, the Otyugh would have needed a 12 to grapple the Half-Orc (10+7-5=12). If the Half-Orc was grappled, he would need a 8 (10+5-7) to break free. In comparison, if the DC was set at 15, he would have needed a 13 less then a 50/50 chance against a foe that he is better then. And in later rounds, the Otyugh would need a 7 to continue the grapple, where if the DC was 15, he would need a 12 to continue the grapple.</p>
<p>At 15 the numbers needed are just too high.</p>I think that we're looking at it the wrong way. From my experiences with CMB and grapple here I think the problem isn't so much with the monsters but with the base DC. By the time that grapple monsters have a big enough bonus to be able to reliably grapple foes, the chance for a PC to escape goes down to 5%. Get a +5 advantage on your opponent in CMB and you will win anything against you and have 50/50 chance winning anything against your opponent. 15 is too high for the base DC. It needs to...BM2008-07-22T19:57:54ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBThe Mailman (alias of Louis Dundin 503)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#332008-07-22T19:57:45Z2008-07-22T19:57:45Z<p>Just to further support the idea of a flat bonus for either tenticle monsters or even monsters with a racial improved grab ability, you could compare it to the fly skill. If you can naturally fly, you get bonuses or penalties to using that racial ability. This is a similar situation, where a flat bonus should apply for a specific physical characteristic.</p>Just to further support the idea of a flat bonus for either tenticle monsters or even monsters with a racial improved grab ability, you could compare it to the fly skill. If you can naturally fly, you get bonuses or penalties to using that racial ability. This is a similar situation, where a flat bonus should apply for a specific physical characteristic.The Mailman (alias of Louis Dundin 503)2008-07-22T19:57:45ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#322008-07-22T18:49:41Z2008-07-22T18:49:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shadowborn wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>My thinking is that the otyugh simply got a raw deal in 3E conversion. A simply boost in its Str, which would not be out of line for a large creature, would go a long way to bringing back its quality, without having to make special exceptions for it in the rules. </blockquote><p>I'm not trying to make special rules for the otyugh; i'm trying to appropriately assign a global modifier for all creatures whose physical characteristics are logically designed to be better at certain type of maneuvers.
<p>Simiar to the idea that you can't trip or grapple an ooze. It's physical form simply defies that kind of maneuver. A creature like an Otyugh or large octopus or giant constrictor snake - should gain some bonus to such a maneuver across the board.</p>
<p>Robert</p>Shadowborn wrote:My thinking is that the otyugh simply got a raw deal in 3E conversion. A simply boost in its Str, which would not be out of line for a large creature, would go a long way to bringing back its quality, without having to make special exceptions for it in the rules.
I'm not trying to make special rules for the otyugh; i'm trying to appropriately assign a global modifier for all creatures whose physical characteristics are logically designed to be better at certain type of...Robert Brambley2008-07-22T18:49:41ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBShadowborn (alias of Jeff Lee)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#312019-05-20T21:54:57Z2008-07-22T18:20:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">"Hogarth wrote:</div><blockquote><p>I think the assassin vine's low CR is due to its lack of intelligence, 30' visual range and extremely slow speed. It's really more like a trap than a creature, in some ways.</p>
<p>I agree that the otyugh was on the low end of CR 4 creatures already, but with the grapple changes it's even worse.</blockquote><p>Agreed. I suppose I'm wondering if the fix isn't so much a change in the CMB mechanic, but a change in "grappler" monster builds in general, that helps them work better with the system in place. I'm not really sold one way or the other at this point, just promoting discussion.
<p>I came down on the otyugh because I think 3E really did a disservice to those guys. I mean, my characters used to be terrified of them. Now, they're a yawn, even with grapple. (Well, except for that one time our 1st levels had to use the sewers to avoid arrest...)</p>"Hogarth wrote:I think the assassin vine's low CR is due to its lack of intelligence, 30' visual range and extremely slow speed. It's really more like a trap than a creature, in some ways.
I agree that the otyugh was on the low end of CR 4 creatures already, but with the grapple changes it's even worse.
Agreed. I suppose I'm wondering if the fix isn't so much a change in the CMB mechanic, but a change in "grappler" monster builds in general, that helps them work better with the system in...Shadowborn (alias of Jeff Lee)2008-07-22T18:20:08ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBMark Gedak 27https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#302008-07-22T18:19:24Z2008-07-22T18:19:21Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">veector wrote:</div><blockquote>I think the main thing is that the Otyugh is lacking STR and the roll determines whether or not the Otyugh grabs AND maintains the grapple.</blockquote><p>That's why everyone should use this Otyugh...
</p>
(no longer an aberration [because they are average fighters] and with an improved Str)</p>
<p>(1)Otyugh (Revised) CR 4
<br />
N Large magical beast
<br />
Init +4; Senses darkvision 30 ft., low-light vision, scent; Listen +4, Spot +5
<br />
[Defense]
<br />
AC 17, touch 9, flat-footed —
<br />
(-1 size, +8 natural)
<br />
hp 39 (6d10+6)
<br />
Fort +6, Ref +5, Will +3
<br />
[Offense]
<br />
Spd 20 ft
<br />
Melee 2 tentacles +7 (1d6+2) and
<br />
bite +5 (1d8+1 plus disease)
<br />
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft. (10 ft. with tentacles)
<br />
Special Attacks constrict (1d6+2), disease (filth fever DC 14), improved grab
<br />
[Statistics]
<br />
Str 15, Dex 10, Con 13, Int 8, Wis 12, Cha 6
<br />
Base Atk +6; Grp +12
<br />
Feats Improved Initiative, Multiattack, Skill Focus (Listen)
<br />
Skills Hide +5 (+13 in lair), Search +3
<br />
Language Common
<br />
SQ all-around vision
<br />
Advancement 6-8 HD (Large), 9-18 HD (Huge), 19-36 HD (Gargantuan), 39+ HD (Colossal)
<br />
[Special Abilities]
<br />
All-Around Vision (Ex) An otyugh’s flexible eyestalk allows it to rapidly look in all directions. An otyugh is never flat-footed and never flanked. It has a +4 racial bonus on Spot and Search checks.
<br />
Disease (Ex) Filth Fever – bite, Fortitude DC 12, incubation period 1d3 days; damage 1d3 Dex and 1d3 Con.
<br />
Improved Grab (Ex) To use this ability, an otyugh must hit with a tentacle attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.
<br />
Natural Colouration (Ex) Due to its natural colouration, an otyugh receives a +8 racial bonus to Hide in its lair.</p>veector wrote:I think the main thing is that the Otyugh is lacking STR and the roll determines whether or not the Otyugh grabs AND maintains the grapple.
That's why everyone should use this Otyugh...
(no longer an aberration [because they are average fighters] and with an improved Str)(1)Otyugh (Revised) CR 4
N Large magical beast
Init +4; Senses darkvision 30 ft., low-light vision, scent; Listen +4, Spot +5
[Defense]
AC 17, touch 9, flat-footed --
(-1 size, +8 natural)
hp 39 (6d10+6)
Fort...Mark Gedak 272008-07-22T18:19:21ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBhogarthhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#292008-07-22T18:12:09Z2008-07-22T18:12:08Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Shadowborn wrote:</div><blockquote> The assassin vine, another grappler, gives up 2HD to the otyugh, but only 6hp on average. It dishes out 7 more points of damage on a constricting attack. Yet it ranks as a CR3 monster. </blockquote><p>I think the assassin vine's low CR is due to its lack of intelligence, 30' visual range and extremely slow speed. It's really more like a trap than a creature, in some ways.
<p>I agree that the otyugh was on the low end of CR 4 creatures already, but with the grapple changes it's even worse.</p>Shadowborn wrote:The assassin vine, another grappler, gives up 2HD to the otyugh, but only 6hp on average. It dishes out 7 more points of damage on a constricting attack. Yet it ranks as a CR3 monster.
I think the assassin vine's low CR is due to its lack of intelligence, 30' visual range and extremely slow speed. It's really more like a trap than a creature, in some ways. I agree that the otyugh was on the low end of CR 4 creatures already, but with the grapple changes it's even worse.hogarth2008-07-22T18:12:08ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBShadowborn (alias of Jeff Lee)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#282019-05-20T21:54:57Z2008-07-22T18:05:51Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">hogarth wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Shadowborn wrote:</div><blockquote>I suppose my point here is that using the otyugh as an example of the CMB as a mechanic in need of change is a faulty one.</blockquote><p>No, it's a good example. It was a weak CR 4 creature with one thing going for it — its halfway decent grapple bonus (+8) + Improved Grab. Now it's a really weak CR 4 creature with a poor grapple bonus (+5 at CR 4 is pretty lame).
<p>The same goes for the choker or the giant octopus: fairly lame creatures, but decent grapplers. </blockquote><p>The assassin vine, another grappler, gives up 2HD to the otyugh, but only 6hp on average. It dishes out 7 more points of damage on a constricting attack. Yet it ranks as a CR3 monster.
<p>My thinking is that the otyugh simply got a raw deal in 3E conversion. A simply boost in its Str, which would not be out of line for a large creature, would go a long way to bringing back its quality, without having to make special exceptions for it in the rules.</p>hogarth wrote:Shadowborn wrote:I suppose my point here is that using the otyugh as an example of the CMB as a mechanic in need of change is a faulty one.
No, it's a good example. It was a weak CR 4 creature with one thing going for it -- its halfway decent grapple bonus (+8) + Improved Grab. Now it's a really weak CR 4 creature with a poor grapple bonus (+5 at CR 4 is pretty lame). The same goes for the choker or the giant octopus: fairly lame creatures, but decent grapplers. The assassin...Shadowborn (alias of Jeff Lee)2008-07-22T18:05:51ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#272008-07-22T17:58:42Z2008-07-22T17:58:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Granfather wrote:</div><blockquote><p> My 2 cents; simple is easy and better give the Otyughs and tentacle creatures a flat +4 to grabble roles. The reasoning for this being also very simple tentacles are filled with rows of suckers and teeth that allow them to maintain a firmer grasp then non tentacle creatures.
</p>
Or for more dynamic systems for tentacle creatures:
<br />
Tentacle grant +1 to CMB for grabble checks for each size level starting at tiny. Or maybe some variation of this.
<br />
In general its not the creature itself that seems to be the problem Its the fact the tentacled creatures have historically been both gaming and fantasy stories been scarily effective in grappling and the new rules done seem to accommodate that fact.
<br />
</blockquote><p>yeah a flat +4 for "tentacled" creatures used for grappling was my suggestion for fixing it.
<p>Having a scaled bonuse based on size is not the right idea IMO - since such creatures are already gaining a global bonus for its size already. Doubling that bonus would just increase the whole calculations exponentially. A flat bonus and then adjusted by the creatures size already figued in still makes HUGE sized tentacled cratures better than large sized ones.</p>
<p>Robert</p>Granfather wrote:My 2 cents; simple is easy and better give the Otyughs and tentacle creatures a flat +4 to grabble roles. The reasoning for this being also very simple tentacles are filled with rows of suckers and teeth that allow them to maintain a firmer grasp then non tentacle creatures.
Or for more dynamic systems for tentacle creatures:
Tentacle grant +1 to CMB for grabble checks for each size level starting at tiny. Or maybe some variation of this.
In general its not the creature...Robert Brambley2008-07-22T17:58:42ZRe: Forums: Combat & Magic: Creatures - Imp Grab vs CMBRobert Brambleyhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2ij25?Creatures-Imp-Grab-vs-CMB#262008-07-22T17:52:40Z2008-07-22T17:52:36Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Kirth Gersen wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Insert Neat Username Here wrote:</div><blockquote> I like where this is going, but in the example in the OP, the Otyugh would only have a 30% chance of grappling even after this bonus. </blockquote>Give him Improved Grapple, as I mentioned earlier, and he's up to 40%... hmmm, I see what you mean. Maybe the improved grab bonus should be +4? </blockquote><p>Well that was pretty much in line with my thinking.
<p>Improved Grab grants the +2 as you suggested Kirth; but creatures with physical anatomies built for grappling (such as tentacles) have a RACIAL bonus of +4. (much like a dwarf has a racial bonus to resist being tripped and bullrushed).</p>
<p>Then creature with Improved Grap ability gains a +2 to the feat - just like Improved Grapple would do.</p>
<p>The Otyugh in my instance would have a +6 bonus to his +5 for total of +11. Thats more in line with my thinking of a "LARGE" sized creature with big-ol tentacles should be able to do if someone is foolish enough to hang around it....</p>
<p>Robert</p>Kirth Gersen wrote:Insert Neat Username Here wrote: I like where this is going, but in the example in the OP, the Otyugh would only have a 30% chance of grappling even after this bonus.
Give him Improved Grapple, as I mentioned earlier, and he's up to 40%... hmmm, I see what you mean. Maybe the improved grab bonus should be +4? Well that was pretty much in line with my thinking. Improved Grab grants the +2 as you suggested Kirth; but creatures with physical anatomies built for grappling...Robert Brambley2008-07-22T17:52:36Z