SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Often there are too many options, so people aren't familiar with their spells, magic items, feat choices, etc. Also, PCs are either really really good at stuff (+32 on a skill check) or really really bad at stuff (+0 or untrained). Also, with Quickened spells, iterative attacks, ultimate 2-weapon fighting, summoned creatures, etc. etc., it can take forever for each PC's turn.
Also, the higher level you are, the easier it is to die instantly (if only temporarily). Which is weird.
And Save DCs don't quite scale as fast as Saving Throw bonuses, so targets are often immune to what's being dished out.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Ultimate two-weapon fighting? Have I missed something?
You know, 2-WF, I2-WF, G2-WF, plus haste, is 8 attacks a round. Add AoOs, Cleaves and Great Cleaves, templates with bite and tail attacks, and it gets CRAZY!
Also, there's always that guy who totally tweaks his PC, so he dominates the situation, tanking better than the fighter, blasting better than the wizard, and healing better than the cleric, all while using weird class/race abilities to bypass the DM's plot.
Then that guy DMs, and your ultimate dude is reduced to dust by an EL 6 higher than normal.
Jeremy Mac Donald |
Deathedge wrote:Ultimate two-weapon fighting? Have I missed something?You know, 2-WF, I2-WF, G2-WF, plus haste, is 8 attacks a round. Add AoOs, Cleaves and Great Cleaves, templates with bite and tail attacks, and it gets CRAZY!
Also, there's always that guy who totally tweaks his PC, so he dominates the situation, tanking better than the fighter, blasting better than the wizard, and healing better than the cleric, all while using weird class/race abilities to bypass the DM's plot.
Then that guy DMs, and your ultimate dude is reduced to dust by an EL 6 higher than normal.
Wow.
I guess you had a bad experience in this regard.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
SmiloDan wrote:Deathedge wrote:Ultimate two-weapon fighting? Have I missed something?You know, 2-WF, I2-WF, G2-WF, plus haste, is 8 attacks a round. Add AoOs, Cleaves and Great Cleaves, templates with bite and tail attacks, and it gets CRAZY!
Also, there's always that guy who totally tweaks his PC, so he dominates the situation, tanking better than the fighter, blasting better than the wizard, and healing better than the cleric, all while using weird class/race abilities to bypass the DM's plot.
Then that guy DMs, and your ultimate dude is reduced to dust by an EL 6 higher than normal.
Wow.
I guess you had a bad experience in this regard.
Well, at epic levels, you're often fighting gods, and I'm pretty sure most god-like stats=DM fiat. Maybe they shouldn't, but it seemed like they did. Especially the ones that automatically get Natural 20's on all their rolls.
My epic level warlock eventually got decent, but it was annoying picking out epic level feats that would get negated by Dimension Lock or whatever. Also, warlocks are good at attrition, not instant death attacks, so that hurt.
Tandriniel |
Often there are too many options, so people aren't familiar with their spells, magic items, feat choices, etc. Also, PCs are either really really good at stuff (+32 on a skill check) or really really bad at stuff (+0 or untrained). Also, with Quickened spells, iterative attacks, ultimate 2-weapon fighting, summoned creatures, etc. etc., it can take forever for each PC's turn.
We have solved this by giving every player 12 secs to begin the statement that explain their action. When the 12 sec is up, so is your round, if you are not coherently explaining what you are doing. A DM counting to 12 is really sharpening the attention, and a caster only has to miss a few rounds in a combat before they really feel like aquatinting them with spells, and acting well fast, rather than perfectly tomorrow.
The game is flowing much better now than it was at any mid-level, because people develop standard strategies, and go with them. This pre-meditation has in fact made people much more effective in-game, with very cool spell combinations flying around.
Also, I have made different scenario-lists (vs. undead, vs many targets, vs party-like opponents), with some good options pr. round. I am not necessarily following these lists, but having made them taught me to prepare ahead and combine better.
High level play is rewarding and fun, but perhaps not for everyone. People have to invest the time to learn their play options, as well as build characters with a number of play options that they can handle. Basically, if you don't like to read up on a huge number of spells, and come with spell lists prepared from home, don't play a non-spontaneous caster.
It is extremely important to respect the time of your group, at our age getting a play night is a rare treat, and we don't want to spent it looking at our friends reading through rule books.
12-sec, you are up!
(Needless to say, there are quite a number of "delay action" actions... but that is ok.)
veector |
Well, at epic levels, you're often fighting gods, and I'm pretty sure most god-like stats=DM fiat.
Honestly I don't know what people get out of epic. I never considered D&D to be designed for playability past 20th, and even 16+ was questionable.
If for the only reason that at those levels, your characters are the toughest SOBs in the realm other than dragons and billion hit die monsters.
Lord Magus |
We have solved this by giving every player 12 secs to begin the statement that explain their action. When the 12 sec is up, so is your round, if you are not coherently explaining what you are doing. (...)
12-sec, you are up!
(Needless to say, there are quite a number of "delay action" actions... but that is ok.)
Hey, I really like that... at any level. It can encourage players to "know" their character, esp. spellcasters. And if a player hasn't been paying attention to the fight (because he's been looking up something in a rulebook) and his PC acts non-optimally because of it, well, doesn't it reflect the fact that in the utter chaos of a fight, if you concentrate on your own thing, you may miss some of the other action?
I'll try that trick; at any level of play, the problem I've often had with my players is that it's difficult to maintain a good rhythm.
Moff Rimmer |
SmiloDan wrote:Add Perfect 2WF, throw in 2 weapons of speed, & you can have 10 attacks/rd.Deathedge wrote:Ultimate two-weapon fighting? Have I missed something?You know, 2-WF, I2-WF, G2-WF, plus haste, is 8 attacks a round.
I'm confused (when I thought that I wasn't). Haste gives the wielder (according to the SRD) "One additional attack with any weapon he is holding". It doesn't say that he gets one additional attack with "each" weapon he is holding. In addition, it says very specifically in both the descriptions for haste and weapons of speed that the effects of both are not cumulative. So in the first case "plus haste" gives a total of 7 attacks a round while speed doesn't grant any additional attacks. (Unless I'm totally missing something.)
Moff Rimmer |
Well, at epic levels, you're often fighting gods, and I'm pretty sure most god-like stats=DM fiat. Maybe they shouldn't, but it seemed like they did. Especially the ones that automatically get Natural 20's on all their rolls.
Getting appropriate monster levels at epic levels is difficult at best. Things do tend to either be too easy or incredibly difficult -- there doesn't seem to be any medium in that regard.
My biggest issue with epic levels is the time it takes for combat. I really don't care if the player character has 15 attacks or what have you -- it just takes forever to count up all the dice. The ranger has 8-10 attacks usually with a weapon with good crit range which increases the number of to hit dice to roll. Then you add the elemental damage or what have you and pretty soon you are rolling 30 d6 but need to separate it out because the creature being attacked has damage reduction or what have you. The wizard is casting usually 2 spells (at least) and both of them have complicated areas of effect and lots of dice to roll. The DM on the other hand has either 10 creatures of a level slightly less complicated than the player characters (which is insane trying to keep track of) or 1 god-like creature that has enough special abilities that it takes three pages to list them all out (like dragotha). With all that, it just seems to take quite a while.
crosswiredmind |
The two main problems I encountered with high level play were the shear number of dice some PC required for a full attack - I needed 40+ dice and a friends dervish required close to if not over 100 and both cases assume no confirmed crits.
The second problem was the rock-paper-scissors effect where the PCs would often walk through an encounter or get wiped by it because one side or the other often held a trump card effect that could not be matched.
Rob Bastard |
Rob Bastard wrote:I'm confused (when I thought that I wasn't). Haste gives the wielder (according to the SRD) "One additional attack with any weapon he is holding". It doesn't say that he gets one additional attack with "each" weapon he is holding. In addition, it says very specifically in both the descriptions for haste and weapons of speed that the effects of both are not cumulative. So in the first case "plus haste" gives a total of 7 attacks a round while speed doesn't grant any additional attacks. (Unless I'm totally missing something.)SmiloDan wrote:Add Perfect 2WF, throw in 2 weapons of speed, & you can have 10 attacks/rd.Deathedge wrote:Ultimate two-weapon fighting? Have I missed something?You know, 2-WF, I2-WF, G2-WF, plus haste, is 8 attacks a round.
I was ignoring Haste. Perfect 2WF gives the same # of attacks with the off as with the primary. A speed weapon allows one extra attack with that weapon, so using 2 will get you 2 extra attacks. Thus, a 21st level 2-hand fighter with all those feats & weapons can get 10 attacks/ round.
Jeremy Mac Donald |
Even at 14th level, I see the potential for some PC's to die a horrible death during a boss fight within 2 rounds without proper preparation (that is, knowing enough about what you're fighting to prepare, which many many times we don't have a chance to do). The game becomes very unforgiving.
revivify.
Pygon |
Pygon wrote:Even at 14th level, I see the potential for some PC's to die a horrible death during a boss fight within 2 rounds without proper preparation (that is, knowing enough about what you're fighting to prepare, which many many times we don't have a chance to do). The game becomes very unforgiving.revivify.
So one spell and one class to fix a high level problem. Gotcha. Thanks! :)
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Yeah, and everything is immune to everything, so you need an anarchic holy cold iron piercing melee weapon with a lefthanded smokeshield to overcome DR, 3 or 4 feats dedicated to overcoming SR for it to work 25% of the time, and all the PCs are super-wack because they're all made with ECL 3-15 beasties.
The Black Bard |
For my experiences, I'd say it comes from narrowing and specialization of the knowledge base. Most moderately experienced players can tell you how to get, and what the bonuses provided are, for inspire courage, flanking, aid another, bless, charging, and some of the other low level common bonus and penalty types.
But up it a few levels, and the knowledge bases begin to specialize. The mage starts forgetting about flanking, and considering multiple die AoEs and save DC boosting for save or dies. The fighter begins running the math on power attack, combat expertise, improved trip/disarm/etc. The rogue begins looking at sneak attack mechanics. The cleric has a host of spells that cover several differnt, but distinct, mechanical options. And now consider that all of these options can potentially stack, as long as they are of separate types.
A charging character under the effects of inspire courage who will end up flanking at the end of his charge against an enemy seems like a long list of bonuses, but most players can tell you the character will get +5 to attack, +1 to damage, and -2 to AC.
But up that several levels, to a character casting a quickened true strike while power attacking for 12 with a two handed weapon while using leap attack, while under the effects of inspire courage +3, haste, bull's strength, and divine favor +4, and the math becomes a lot more complex. Aditionally, some of those effects are less known by players, because a player may have never played a wizard, or a cleric, or had a haste spell cast on them. Again, knowledge base specialization at work bogging down high level play. I've noticed it goes faster when everyone is familiar with the spells/abilities in question. But expecting everyone at the table to have an encyclopediac knowledge of the books is unreasonable, even at just the core rules, to say nothing of splatbooks. And I think the speed of 3rd edition leveling might have something to do with the problem. I can't begin to count the number of times I leveled up and gained a new abilitiy before I had used the previous levels ability more than once or twice, sometimes not even at all! I had a rogue who got to seventh level before he ever used evasion.
Jeremy Mac Donald |
Jeremy Mac Donald wrote:So one spell and one class to fix a high level problem. Gotcha. Thanks! :)Pygon wrote:Even at 14th level, I see the potential for some PC's to die a horrible death during a boss fight within 2 rounds without proper preparation (that is, knowing enough about what you're fighting to prepare, which many many times we don't have a chance to do). The game becomes very unforgiving.revivify.
Its true - a party of 5 clerics who all know revivify no longer fear death.
Freehold DM |
This is the umpteeth thread I've seen on this topic, and I thought that for once I would add my input. I have run games where the characters got pretty high level(about 14-16), and I've never had a problem with it. Maybe I just didn't get high enough(20th level), but it seems to me that the problems with high level play are the same as with low level play- players who either dont' know what their character wants to do in any given round, or players who want to do something ridiculous and/or out of character(i.e. slay a dragon in one hit because their stats say that they can, and then stop whatever the party may or may not be doing to prove this point). Another problem I have regardless of level that I thought would get worse as levels went higher are players who feel the need to run everybody else's character for them- this was a serious problem in a game that I was in(not running) when certain characters kept on begging/demanding my character for buffs or ordering me to change into a certain form(I was playing a druid at the time). In my opinion, it's the same problems you have at lower levels, just at a higher volume.
Tandriniel |
The two main problems I encountered with high level play were the shear number of dice some PC required for a full attack - I needed 40+ dice and a friends dervish required close to if not over 100 and both cases assume no confirmed crits.
.
I solved that by using averages for damage dice, as well as a computer spread sheet.
Dragonchess Player |
In my opinion, it's the same problems you have at lower levels, just at a higher volume.
QFT.
The problems are just more frequent/critical because there's more going on, mechanics-wise. If both the players and DM are organized and familiar with the rules that apply to their characters' actions, then high-level play can be a blast.
Even a scout 15/dervish 10/tempest 5 with two keen shocking burst speed thundering scimitars, Combat Reflexes, Elusive Target, Improved Trip, and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting in a Dervish Dance (10 attacks (18 with A Thousand Cuts), plus extra attacks from Elusive Target/Improved Trip (and Great Cleave with A Thousand Cuts), all with Skirmish bonuses, critical threats on 15-20, and extra damage dice on a critical hit) is managable if you're organized and familiar with the applicable rules.
Jeremy Mac Donald |
One of my biggest issues is the number of buff spells that are in use and the accounting task that the game becomes to track all these. In my group its pretty common for the players to use magic or stealth or some such to work out whats coming up. They then fire off buff spells like crazy. Often a list of around 13 party buffs with the individual characters then using one or two one themselves apiece. It takes around 45 minutes just to set this up. Even after this they need to track when the buffs are running out and make adjustments if they cast new ones.
Its also all so complicated that the game simply becomes one that only the true hard core can play. If your just coming for the story and the adventure then you soon grow board of this long debate about whether X stacks or what order the buffs should be in to insure that most of the important ones are running for the longest possible time. Also I'm asking a lot of less experienced players to even try and keep track of all this. Thats hard and it seems so far removed from death defying battles with dangerous dragons.
I'd not bring newbs to my higher level D&D game for fear of souring them on D&D for good.
Aelryinth RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 |
High level play also brings with it cheesy spell abuse (lots of dinks who read CharOpts board on WoTC like to use this stuff), instant Kills, and character tweaking, multi-PrCing, and the like.
Consider a simple Barbarian Uber Charge build. Weapon is Valorous (x2 dmg charging). 10 Frenzied Barb levels for Supreme Power Attack. Power Attack, Improved Bull Rush, Shock Trooper, Leap attack. For true cheese add Headlong Rush if orcish I won't)
This character, with a Reach Weapon, can charge you, getting a Pounce effect by swapping out level 1 barb for the PH2 variant.
He charges! He leaps! He declares Power Attack 20! He rages! he frenzies!
From a base str of 30, his str goes to 44ish. +17.
Supreme Power attack is PAx4 from Frenzied Berserker. So 80 dmg. +20 More from Leap Attack, so +100 dmg. Two handed weapon, so Str dmg is +25, +5 dmg from weapon, so +130.
x2 from Valorous.
So, on a charge, he's doing 2x weapon Dmg, +260 dmg. His TH roll is ~+49. He gets full Iteratives, and unlimited cleaving with Supreme Cleave from FB.
Assuming a reach weapon and he's Enlarged or size L, that means he's delivering 4 attacks at +49/+44/+39/+34 in a radius of 20'. We'll ignore haste and all them nice party buffs...
260 HP kills, on average, any character/20 with a Con of 24 or less. This attack then cleaves to anyone within 20' of the barbarian.
TPK! Or, three attacks, and good bye to max HP Elder Great Wyrm.
And this is UNOPTIMIZED. It's just a simple charging build. Lancers on horseback can actually do much, much worse, because their multiplier is higher.
At Epic level, with nearly unlimited funding and the ability to stack buffs on buffs on items, things can get really nasty, really fast.
What spellcasters can do with spells at high levels gets much, much worse. Simple things like teleports mean you can't get lost or off track, and have great retreat ability. Melees and archers can deal out truly horrendous amounts of damage. Recovery ability from damage is faster and more ruthless. Immunities to attacks abound, and save or dies are all over the place.
It all depends on your enemies, DM and players. Most people don't play to abuse rules like this, but it IS possible.
==Aelryinth
crosswiredmind |
crosswiredmind wrote:I solved that by using averages for damage dice, as well as a computer spread sheet.The two main problems I encountered with high level play were the shear number of dice some PC required for a full attack - I needed 40+ dice and a friends dervish required close to if not over 100 and both cases assume no confirmed crits.
.
As for spread sheets - sure, but you should not need to do that just to play a game. Averages might work but most players want the roll.
crosswiredmind |
Even a scout 15/dervish 10/tempest 5 with two keen shocking burst speed thundering scimitars, Combat Reflexes, Elusive Target, Improved Trip, and Perfect Two-Weapon Fighting in a Dervish Dance (10 attacks (18 with A Thousand Cuts), plus extra attacks from Elusive Target/Improved Trip (and Great Cleave with A Thousand Cuts), all with Skirmish bonuses, critical threats on 15-20, and extra damage dice on a critical hit) is managable if you're organized and familiar with the applicable rules.
Manageable but still slow to resolve. High level play is a grind even when the players and the GM are fully prepped.
SmiloDan RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 |
Nikki |
Ello everyone-
Just a brief comment to, SmiloDan, Wed, Jul 16, 2008, 08:59 PM...
I have run into PCs that are completely tweeked beyond reason. The player invariably lies about it and says, "I was just lucky on the dice rolls. I hardly ever have a character like this one..." or "The DM said it was ok to have this character and tweeked it themselves- in order to survive in their campaign..." Yah right.
I always ask for a DM's reference regarding anyone bringing in a prerolled character unless I know the person OR saw them roll the character in front of me. If necessary I will say I want to make a quick call to their DM and ask.... that usually gets the player response of, "Oh ok... I'll use a different character if you think this one is too highstat for YOUR game...".
If that all fails and/or I see that the player can't even run their character sufficently for the so called "Lucky rolled character", I have them visited by something like an Ice Storm or Fireball of 100 dice or more..... Or fall into a pit-trap where you can hear them screaming for 20 minutes before they reach the bottom (1k dice roll???). lol
Enough said about idiots and liars in my games.