Multicassing base classes can be painful most of the time and is suicidal for spellcasters. In fact anything past a 1-2level dip is really not worth the trouble.
However I like the idea of base class multiclassing much more than tacking on customer PrC's to suit a particular style.
So I offer a simple yet mostly untested option similar to a Gelsalt charcter but with fewer benefits.
Dual Classed Characters
In a nut shell you choose to dual class at level 2, and are fixed into it from that point on there are no ex dual classed characters. You can never take a 3rd base class nor a prestige class, no exceptions.
You take levels as a normal multi classed characters the split can never exceed 1:4 in other words at 20th your either 4/16 10/10 or somewhere between. You gain class abilities at the appropriate class level.
The Benefit ? For all class abilities you substitute your character level for your class level. i.e. a 4/16 or 10/10 will cast as a 20th level caster. It also applies to non casting abilities that have numerical effects determined by class level. e.g. Monk Ki pools is 1/2 monk level +WIS, for a DC that becomes 1/2 char level +WIS
Also for Hit Dice Saves and BAB they are determined by the dominant class, i.e. a Bard 12 /Fighter 8 uses Bard HD Saves and BAB. If you intend to be a 10/10 split then you may choose the better option at each levelup.
Feats skills are gained as per normal.
If there are any glaring Exploits then I propose simple caps. e.g. if letting muliclassed cast as full 20th level caster is too much then cap the max spell level at 5th or 6th preventing access to the more powerful spells.
The purpose is to make multi classing far more simple fun and less painful to do. A DC caster shouldn't be as powerful spell wise as a pure caster but at the same time his spells shouldn't suck so heavily that they never work on monsters.
As it stand this offers 45 Dual Class combinations which in turn offer 315 level split combinations of which a majority should be worth playing.
As an example
Barbarian 10 / Sorceror 10
Would have a Rage point pool of a 20th level Barb, cast 5th level spells as a 20th level sorc, have Barb HD and BAB with a mix of barb/sorc saves. But would miss out on 11th-20th level barb/sorc class abilities like Mighty Rage Dmg reduction etc etc
Multicassing base classes can be painful most of the time and is suicidal for spellcasters. In fact anything past a 1-2level dip is really not worth the trouble.
However I like the idea of base class multiclassing much more than tacking on customer PrC's to suit a particular style.
So I offer a simple yet mostly untested option similar to a Gelsalt charcter but with fewer benefits.
Dual Classed Characters
In a nut shell you choose to dual class at level 2, and are fixed into it from that point on there are no ex dual classed characters. You can never take a 3rd base class nor a prestige class, no exceptions.You take levels as a normal multi classed characters the split can never exceed 1:4 in other words at 20th your either 4/16 10/10 or somewhere between. You gain class abilities at the appropriate class level.
The Benefit ? For all class abilities you substitute your character level for your class level. i.e. a 4/16 or 10/10 will cast as a 20th level caster. It also applies to non casting abilities that have numerical effects determined by class level. e.g. Monk Ki pools is 1/2 monk level +WIS, for a DC that becomes 1/2 char level +WIS
Also for Hit Dice Saves and BAB they are determined by the dominant class, i.e. a Bard 12 /Fighter 8 uses Bard HD Saves and BAB. If you intend to be a 10/10 split then you may choose the better option at each levelup.
Feats skills are gained as per normal.If there are any glaring Exploits then I propose simple caps. e.g. if letting muliclassed cast as full 20th level caster is too much then cap the max spell level at 5th or 6th preventing access to the more powerful spells.
The purpose is to make multi classing far more simple fun and less painful to do. A DC caster shouldn't be as powerful spell wise as a pure caster but at the same time his spells shouldn't suck so heavily that they never work on monsters.
As it stand this offers 45 Dual Class combinations which in turn offer 315 level split combinations of which a majority should be worth...
My first reaction was a fit of seizures as I flashed back to 1st edition, but this is actually pretty decently thought out, over all.
My one suggestion might be, instead of making it an entirely seperate multiclassing system, build it as a series of feats.
Something along the lines of...
Adaptable Monk
benefit: When calculating the effects of Monk class abilities, you may use your total character level in place of your Monk class level.
normal: Class abilities that scale with level use class level, not character level, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
Obviously, replace Monk with whatever class you are writing the feat for, but you get the idea. This also gives you the ability to tweak each feat for balance, if a specific class has an ability that is scaling a little too well, you can exclude that ability from the feat.
This way you can still use the standard multiclassing rules and get the benefits of the dual classing idea you had.
I also kind of like that it does make this cost something, so it doesn't seem quite such a boost in power.
Simple, I like it
The only thing is I wanted a bit more of a tighter control on the conditions for it so that people who dip into a class cannot benefit from it. The Power sacrifice is made from the back end of your class abilities
Ideally this should mostly if not only benefit core class splits of from 10/10 to 5/15 where normally such splits are near character killers.
These splits prevent the more powerful abilities being obtained so that boosting the lower abilities isn't as overpowering.
The limiting these more even splits provides is a fairly large which is why I was hesitant to put a cost in, especially because a feat cost will hinder many combinations right off the bat.
EDIT:
By the way if you've read this and think it look familiar the Idea came from Gestalt Characters which are characters that levelup in 2 classes simultaneously, waaay overpowered and a Nightmare to bookeep personally tried playing one didn't like it that much. But I love the premise of having access to the variety of 2 classes without the massive penalties that go with it currently.
The only thing is I wanted a bit more of a tighter control on the conditions for it so that people who dip into a class cannot benefit from it. The Power sacrifice is made from the back end of your class abilities
Easiest way to fit that in, that I can see, is to add a prereq to the feat. So to take Adaptable Monk, for instance, you might add a prereq that you have at least X monk levels. (I'd personally go with 4, it's a nice round number, and it would prevent level dipping)
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What about this (and keep in mind, I plagiarized!)
FEAT
Adaptable
Prerequisites: 4th level in Favored Class
(Thereby giving a reason to use favored classes)
Benefit: When multiclassing and calculating the effects of your class abilities, you may use your total character level in place of your class level.
Normal: Class abilities scale with class levels, not character levels, unless explicitly stated otherwise.
What do you think???
Interesting the more I think about the feat path the more I think it'll work somewhat better.
To use Practised Spellcaster as an example your trading 1 feat for 4 additional spell caster levels and that seems to work fairly well for people who dip.
A more powerful version of this could be
Practiced Class X
Requirment 4th Level in Class X
Your class level is treated as being up to 4 levels higher up to a max of your current ECL. This feat can be taken multiple times and can be taken in a different class or the same class and the effects stack (4,8,12 etc).
In Effect a Fighter 8 / Cleric 12 would need to take 3 x Practiced Fighter and 2 x Practiced Cleric to be treated as a Fighter 20 / Cleric 20.
Then it just a matter of Tailoring each Practiced Class to pick the abilites, powers, spells or BAB etc that should scale with ECL.
In Effect This will chew up basically all of your feat choices and thus allow some of the better class abilites to scale without risk of them becoming too overpowering, e.g. Spellcasters would lose access to most of their metamagic feats in exchange for dual class benefits etc.
Guess its just a matter of going through each class and comming up with a feat for each that fits into this mold.
Thoughts ?
Interesting the more I think about the feat path the more I think it'll work somewhat better.
To use Practised Spellcaster as an example your trading 1 feat for 4 additional spell caster levels and that seems to work fairly well for people who dip.
A more powerful version of this could be
Practiced Class X
Requirment 4th Level in Class X
Your class level is treated as being up to 4 levels higher up to a max of your current ECL. This feat can be taken multiple times and can be taken in a different class or the same class and the effects stack (4,8,12 etc).In Effect a Fighter 8 / Cleric 12 would need to take 3 x Practiced Fighter and 2 x Practiced Cleric to be treated as a Fighter 20 / Cleric 20.
Then it just a matter of Tailoring each Practiced Class to pick the abilites, powers, spells or BAB etc that should scale with ECL.
In Effect This will chew up basically all of your feat choices and thus allow some of the better class abilites to scale without risk of them becoming too overpowering, e.g. Spellcasters would lose access to most of their metamagic feats in exchange for dual class benefits etc.
Guess its just a matter of going through each class and comming up with a feat for each that fits into this mold.
Thoughts ?
I think that might work quite well. I might make it 8 levels higher if I was running a straight 3.5 game, so they only need to take it twice to get their 4th level class up, or once to get a 10th level class nearly up. But with the extra feats in Pathfinder, it would be fine at 4.
Gaining another classes abilities can be a pretty big thing, especially real spellcasting levels are involved. With the number of feats available in Pathfinder, I think having the feat give you 2 effective levels in the class is more appropriate.
If feat only raises spellcaster levels for casting purposes like the currrent 'Practiced Spellcaster' feat, then 4 levels is fine.
Gaining another classes abilities can be a pretty big thing, especially real spellcasting levels are involved.
To clarify what we're talking about
A Sorceror 4 / Ranger 6 ECL 10 Character who has taken the Practiced Wizard Feat Twice would have;
0 Level Spells 6 known
1 Level Spells 6 (3 known)
2 Level Spells 3 (1 known)
But would be able to cast
Acid Arrow
Range: Long (400 ft. + 40 ft./level)
[ With Feats 400ft + 400ft, Without Feats 400ft + 160ft ]
Effect: One arrow of acid Duration: 1 round + 1 round per three levels
2d4 points of acid damage (+2d4 round / 3 caster levels)
[ With Feat 2d4 acid + 2 rounds of 2d4 acid, Without Feat 2d4 Acid + 1 round of 2d4 acid]
[ With Feat DC = 10+(10caster level) + CHA, Without Feat DC = 10+(4Caster level)+CHA ]
He would not have 5th level spells nor would he have 10th caster level worth spells per day for 0 1 and 2nd level spells.
If anyone's intersted in testing this idea with some fixed rules. I've just put 11 feats into a pdf and hosted so you can check it out. See what the most abusive character you can come up with and I can start toning it down from there.
Multicassing base classes can be painful most of the time and is suicidal for spellcasters.
Everyone keep saying this. I jusst don't get it. I made a figher sorcerer once under the 3.5 system and managed to become a Sor7/Ftr6 without ever feeling out of the loop. It was perhaps my best character ever (and no, I didn't min/max).
Anyway that's just me. Please return to your discussion.
Multicassing base classes can be painful most of the time and is suicidal for spellcasters.Everyone keep saying this. I jusst don't get it. I made a figher sorcerer once under the 3.5 system and managed to become a Sor7/Ftr6 without ever feeling out of the loop. It was perhaps my best character ever (and no, I didn't min/max).
Anyway that's just me. Please return to your discussion.
I hate to say it but yours is the exception not the rule. I actually play'd one myself before as well unarmored brawler who used his innate powers to bolster his combat prowess. It works for two very distinct reasons that don't translate.
1) Fighters are the best at multi classing they have no abilities which require a certain level they simply add to whatever class you put them with.2) Sorcerer's who focusing on self buffing Mage Armor, Shield, Enlarge Person etc never have to deal with DC's to overcome spell resistance.
Btw did you take your char past 13th level ?
But thats just my take on why I say multiclassing spellscaster is suicide
But thats just my take on why I say multiclassing spellscaster is suicideYes it is for those who insist that their multi-classed caster operate as a single classed one. I took a 4/6 Rouge Sorcerer to 19th level as an Arcane Trickster in Living City and I had a blast, and this was before feats like "Practised Spellcaster". I had tricks that did not rely on Spell Resistance or got around it. I excelled at delivering damage at point single targets and let the single classed wizards do what they were best at.
The key is to evaluate a multi-classed character as a composite, not just fixate on the casting abilities. the key is to multi-class with synergy.
Not to gripe or anything buy key words in your example "Arcane Trickster" I don't like PrC's and this is for non PrC multi class builds. Would a Rogue 8 / Sorc 11 been as fun to play with your 19th level party ?
Yes, because if that's the restriction you want to impose, I'd have built the character to make it fun. It would have been a sorcerer whose powers would have complemented the rouge skills and used appropriately. It's still a sorcerer that would have access to spells like blink, teleport, dimension door, improved invisibility, and ray spells that would take advantage of sneak attack. Would I still have problems now and then, sure. But that's part and parcel of the package choosing to generalise instead of concentrating down one path. Actually going by your logic, spellcasters do best if they don't multiclass at all.
Not to gripe or anything buy key words in your example "Arcane Trickster" I don't like PrC's and this is for non PrC multi class builds. Would a Rogue 8 / Sorc 11 been as fun to play with your 19th level party ?
Fair enough, I get the feeling we're comparing apples and oranges and our inferences of "fun" and "best" probably don't match up all that well. But hey if your in a gaming group where a rogue 8/sorc 11 wouldn't feel like he wasn't pulling his weight then Kudos to your DM.
All I'm trying to do is expand on the handful of multi class combo's that have synergy and simply widen the range so someone might find playing a e.g. Paladin/Rogue entertaining.
The Funny thing is that your same character with my suggested idea would actually be very similar to your original one the only difference being your spells would have a higher DC and the numerical effects would be better, in essence it would play the same.
This idea is to simply increase the number of synergistic combinations while maintaining the premise of a balanced Versatility - Power scale.