After a bit of testing... some Pathfinder house rules


Alpha Release 3 General Discussion


Well, after testing out Pathfinder for a few weeks (and loving it) I have come across a few things I felt could use a bit of work.

I've thrown together a PDF with all the changes, which can be downloaded here (http://rapidshare.com/files/127222895/Pathfinder_House_Rules.pdf.html)

The change to Spellcraft/Concentration didn't sit well with me, Concentration may have been used for Casting Defensively most of the time, but it did have other valid uses. I've also never been crazy about Spellcraft as a skill at all, it seems to overlap a lot with what Knowledge (Arcana) should be doing.

So I've put Concentration back in, cleaned up the rules for acting defensively, dropped spellcraft, and split it's effects between Knowledge (Arcana) for arcane spells and Knowledge (Religion) for divine. Knowledge (Arcana) is now much more specifically tied to information relating to magic, it's effects, and it's creations.

While I was at it, I removed Knowledge (Dungeoneering) because it's the silliest skill to ever grace a character sheet, and Knowledge (Local) because it overlaps too much with Geography, History, and Nobility, and because it can either be useless or ridiculous in play, depending on whether or not the person running the game rules that it works only for the "local" you consider your home or every "local" area you happen to be in. In their place I've added Knowledge (Lore), which covers aberrations, ancient mysteries, dragons, legends, and oozes, and Knowledge (Warfare), which covers giants, humanoids, military history, monstrous humanoids, tactics.

The intent in the change of Knowledges was, in part, to give Fighters and other Melee classes meaningful skill options, and to make each Knowledge specialty more distinct and uniquely useful.

There are a few tweaks to combat, and a lot of work on various classes, intended to help bring Fighters and a few of the other melee classes up to speed. Pathfinder already helped a lot in that department, but I felt like some of them could still use a bit more.

Longer descriptions of the all the changes to follow, but for now I'm posting this before it times out.


Ok, so on with the changes...

Upped the minimum skill points per level to 4, 2 per level is terrible for pretty much everyone but Wizard, and especially for -2 Int races. 4 per keeps low Int from hitting rock bottom so fast, and it's not especially game breaking that Clerics and Fighters can afford to buy a few ranks in some extra skills now.

General Combat Changes
Combat Maneuvers use a DC of 10 + your opponents CMB instead of 15+, and you may use either Dex or Str on your CMB. I left that bit out of the PDF on accident, but I'll throw a new version together later that includes it and a custom character sheet with the new skills, more room for modifiers on saves/stats, and just a few quality of life tweaks here and there.

Cover
Reverted mostly to the cover rules from 3.5, but with a few tweaks to handle creatures with reach/size without making things too complicated.

Flat Footed/Touch Attacks
Changed both of these to a flat AC penalty/attack bonus, more in line with Prone, Stunned, etc. I can definitely see this one drawing some flack, but work out the math on it first. Most of the time it's not too far off the old values, and when it does make an attack considerably harder, it's not that the new way of doing it is far too difficult, it's that the old Flat Footed/Touch Attack rules would turn certain attack rolls into essentially an automatic hit.

The intent in making the change was to speed up combat a bit and keep certain spells and abilities from being way, way too good against larger creatures. Wizard/Sorc get a boost to touch attacks, to help them keep up with rising ACs (and to provide some interesting room for creative use of multiclassing/racial abilities), while Clerics/Druids do not, which helps bring CoDzillas a little more in line with other classes.

Saving throws also got a bit of work, again, with the intent of bringing high level casters more in line with other classes. In standard 3.5 and Pathfinder, spell DCs scaled far too well in comparison to weak saves. Even against good saves, spell DCs kept up, and then some. Even mid level casters could easily get saves on spells like Glitterdust high enough to become game breaking in most situations.

So, here's the new idea, all saves work off a common progression based on total character level. +0 at 1st level, +1 at 3rd, and then another +1 every odd level afterwards. Each class also has one or more Trained saves, that work in pretty much the same manner as Trained Class Skills in Pathfinder. That is, if you have a Trained save, you add a +3 bonus to that save. Training doesn't stack from multiple classes, again, just like Class skills in pathfinder. This helps to stop some of the foolishness with multiclassing hurting some saves terribly, and ramping others up far too high.

For example, under the old system, a level 4 Fighter/Barbarian would have a +6 to his Fort save, but a +0 to both Reflex and Willpower saves, putting him nearly double the base fort of a straight Barbarian, but absolutely no progression at all in either of his other saves.

Under the new system, a level 4 Fighter/Barbarian would have a +4 to Fort, and a +1 to Reflex and Will, which is exactly the same set of base saves a straight Barbarian or Fighter would have.

With a common progression on saves, the feats for improving your base save become far more useful. In standard, you were probably either already good enough at a save, if you had a good progression, or if you had a poor progression you were so bad at it there was very little point in even taking the feat.

More about classes to follow...


On with Classes...

Barbarian-
Dropped rage points, it was a good idea, and ki points work very well for Monk, but it's not so great for Barbarian, the large number of Rage points at high level, and the fact that you'll be spending varying amounts of Rage every round, sometimes two or three times a round, depending on what abilities you use, make it a nightmare to keep track of properly. I've also worn a hole right through a character sheet in just two weeks because of all the erasing, writing, erasing, writing, etc.

Rage powers are a wonderful idea, I absolutely love this and the Rogue tricks. Dropped the point costs, removed some of the abilities that seemed a little off for Barbarian. (Elemental attacks? You're so mad you're on fire? While awesome, that it still a little odd.) To keep the Rage powers from becoming too crazy, they're mostly limited to being used one at a time. One typo in the pdf, Renewed Vigor should have been changed to a free action. 1 hp per level of barbarian as a standard action is never, ever going to be worth using in combat, making even a single attack would almost always be a better move. Again, I'll make the change later and update the pdf.

D10 hd, and yeah, I definitely know that one is going to attract some hatred, to make up for it, 2 bonus HP per level of barbarian. This keeps the HD in line with the standard set by other classes, and actually considerably ups the total HP of most barbarians. It also gives Barbarians more of a HP boost in games where average HP per level is used. The intent here was to standardize, and to give barbs a big enough bump in survival to make up for the loss of heavy armor and -2 AC from raging. (As I don't let Mithril plate to count as Medium armor for the purposes of class abilities, the loss of Heavy armor really is quite significant in my game.)

Intimidating Presence, Frightful Presence, added a few new abilities that tie into the barbarians skills, give them a nice boost at some otherwise dead levels, and help give the class something really unique to look forward to at later levels.

Bard, cleric, and druid are pretty much as written in Pathfinder. The only change of note is removing the instrument restrictions on the various bardic performances. The restrictions complicate things, and I didn't feel like they added enough flavor to be worth the complexity of checking the list every time someone uses bardic song.

Fighter to follow shortly...


And now for Fighter...

Fighter probably had the most significant changes out of any class.

Another typo, Concentration is not on the Fighter skill list by default, again, when I update the PDF, I'll fix the typo.

Armor Training was change to Defensive Training. Defensive training still eases the armor check penalty and max dex of worn armor, but instead of a +to the armor bonus, it gives a +dodge bonus to AC. This leaves a little more room for multiclassing, or for theme fighters that want to go armorless. I also feel like it just fits the idea of a master of armed combat more. The bonus Max Dex still makes armor a very, very good option, but the bonus to AC isn't entirely lost if a Fighter doesn't have access to armor for some reason.

Combat Training is new, Fighters needed some unique abilities, beyond Armor/Weapon training to really give them some flavor and interesting class abilities to look forward to other than more feats. At 4th, 8th, 12th, and 16th Fighters get to choose one of the following abilities.

(These abilities are powerful, but keep in mind that no fighter is ever going to have more than four of the seven, and that they'll be getting the fourth ability right about the same time casters are breaking out Wish, Miracle, and Shapechange. Taken in that context, I don't feel any of these abilities is too game breaking, and they give Fighters some very unique and interesting options.)

Focus (Ex): The fighter adds Willpower to their list of Trained saves and adds Concentration to their list of Class skills. (Class skills with at least one Rank and Trained saves receive a +3 competence bonus. Skills and Saves are either trained or untrained, multiple training bonuses from multiclassing do not stack.)

Awareness (Ex): The fighter adds Reflex to their list of Trained saves and adds Perception to their list of Class skills. (Class skills with at least one Rank and Trained saves receive a +3 competence bonus. Skills and Saves are either trained or untrained, multiple training bonuses from multiclassing do not stack.)

Acumen (Ex): The fighter adds a +3 competence bonus to their Combat Maneuvers Bonus and on Bluff checks made to Feint.

Hustle (Ex): The fighter reduces the penalties to movement speed from armor and encumbrance by one category and may make a 10 ft. move in place of a 5 ft. step.

Resilience (Ex): The fighter ignores the effects of Fatigued, Shaken, and Sickened. This ability does not remove these conditions, it merely allows the fighter to ignore the penalties they normally impart. In addition, while Dazed, Nauseated, or Stunned the Fighter may make a single Standard action each round (this action replaces the single move action a nauseated character would normally make.)

Celerity (Ex): The fighter may take a full round action during surprise rounds. In addition, the fighter is always considered armed for the purposes of determining threatened area, and may draw a weapon as part of an attack of opportunity.

Forethought (Ex): The Fighter is no longer limited to readying standard, move equivalent, and free actions. They may now ready a full round action as well. They may take a five foot step immediately, or as part of the full round action they ready, but no other action is possible on a turn in which they ready a full round action.

Weapon Training is pretty much unchanged, but has been renamed Offensive Training. (After all, at least one group did not actually involve any weapons) I've also added a few extra groups for exotic fighters, Natural includes Bite, Claw, Gore, etc. for non standard race or shapechanging fighters, and Supernatural, which allows specialization in weapon like spells and spell like abilities, useful for cross class Fighter/Casters and for non standard races with spell like abilities.

Monk is up next, along with Ranger...


Now for Monk...

Monk damage scales pretty badly, the 2d10 base damage at 20 looks impressive on paper, but is really a very minor bump in terms of average damage. Weapon enchantments and feats add far, far more damage for the armed melee classes. Flurry and bonus attacks from spending ki help to an extent, but monks still really needed a small boost to damage, especially considering their need for so many stats. Which brings us to the first change..

the monks AC bonus is replaced by a Combat Bonus, which is added to both their AC and to the damage they deal with unarmed attacks and monk weapons. (to be clear, a monk still adds their wisdom to AC only, the Combat bonus uses only the +1 to +5 miscellaneous bonus a monk normally gets to add to their AC)

Wholeness of Body- Again, healing 1 hp per level as a standard action is absolutely useless. There will almost always be better options in combat, and out of combat it would be a waste of Ki.

As a replacement, monks receive Wholeness of Body (Su): At 7th level or higher, a monk can temporarily increase their ability to withstand wounds. A monk may add a +2 ki bonus to his Constitution for a number of rounds equal to his wisdom mod as a free action. At 11th level this bonus improves to +4, and at 15th level it improves to +6. Activating this ability uses 2 points from the monk’s ki pool.

This gives monks an ability that fills the same role of mitigating damage, and as a free action it will actually see use. This is considerably more powerful than the old Wholeness of body, but Monks also had a lot of so so abilities at high level, and this gives them a very good reason to continue taking levels of Monk.

Ki also seems to run out very, very fast, considering you only get 1/2 your monk level + your Wis mod. With multiple abilities that depend on it for use, it seemed like Monks could use a few more points per day.

Restful Meditation (Ex): Starting at 8th level, a monk may refill their ki pool once per day by spending an hour in restful meditation.

This gives monks a way of getting back in the game after a hard fight, but still keeps them limited to an appropriate amount of ki in any single fight.

Lastly, I changed Quivering palm to once per day, instead of once per week. Nothing game breaking here, it's no worse than a wizard with Symbol of Death (to be honest, it's actually considerably less deadly) and considering this is supposed to be a sort of capstone big end game ability, it needed a bit of a bump.

Last few after this...

Scarab Sages

Crikey.
Slow down!


Half asleep and fading fast, so these last few will be brief, please, feel free to look over the Pdf and provide some feedback... positive, negative, troll, whatever.

Paladin-
Smite evil on any attack, why force paladin's to play melee? Nothing over the top about being able to Smite with a bow, and it gives players a little more freedom to be creative.

Lay on Hands, at low levels the amount healed per use is way too low to really be all that useful, same goes for the amount of damage dealt to undead. It would almost always be better to just hit them with a sword. To help balance this out a bit at lower levels, added Charisma bonus to damage healed/done.

Ranger-
More favored enemy options, Ranger may move their favored enemy bonuses around a bit from day to day, allowing them to spec more for particular types as needed. The broader selection of enemies makes a ranger more likely to get some use out of favored enemy in random encounters, and the ability to focus when needed lets them perform to full effect when there is time to prepare and foreknowledge of what you'll face.

Rogue-
Has a similar problem to Monk, Sneak attack looks like it's a heck of a lot of extra damage on paper, but on average it's actually less bonus damage than a primary melee character gets with Power attack and a large weapon. (Sneak is 1d6 every two levels, so 3.5 damage on average. Power attack with a 2h weapon is +4 damage every two levels until it caps against str mod, and Power attack can be used any time you want, with no restrictions on flanking or surprise. Power attack also multiplies on crits, is more consistent, and can help overcome DR.)

Rogues also tend to have to spread their stats out a bit more, just about every stat has an important use. Charisma for social skills, Wisdom for Perception, Intelligence for skill points, and the physical stats are obvious. Because of this their Str is likely to be considerably lower, again, bringing their damage down.

To help rogues get their damage back up, especially at low levels, they now get the following at level 1.

Precision (Ex): A rogue may add their Int modifier to the damage of a sneak attack once per round. The rogue must declare they are using this ability prior to making their attack roll. Should the rogue score a critical hit, this extra damage is multiplied.

Sorcerers are a lot, lot better now with the Bloodlines, I really like what Pathfinder did with them. Still, wanted to make a few changes.

I really dislike the one level delay in spell progression on sorcs, but I also understand the balance reasons behind it. To keep them a little closer to other primary casters without overdoing it, I give sorcs 0 spells per day and 1 spell known at odd levels. That way a sorc with a high enough Charisma has at least one spell per day at the same level as all the other casters.

Other than that I just tweaked a few bloodlines and what level you get your bloodline spells at, to give Sorcs something to gain at almost every level.

As mentioned previously, Sorcs and Wizards get an Arcane Accuracy ability that improves their touch attacks/spells, and helps them keep up with AC using the houseruled touch attacks.

Wizard-
Only things changed here were skill points, the Arcane Accuracy bit, and some editing on the wording for Arcane bond to give bonded items a little more room for creativity, and to help make the spell storing/spellstaff effect a little more explicitly defined. (The old version, if read liberally, was basically a free Pearl of Power at whatever your highest level spells you had. And that seems a bit much.)


Snorter wrote:

Crikey.

Slow down!

Heh, sorry, had a lot to go over, and I wanted to give people that didn't want to read the PDF an idea what was in it.

All done now. ::grin::

If it makes you feel better my fingers hurt and I think my keyboard is smoking a little...

Scarab Sages

i like alot of what you did, have you playtested this new rules? I wont go over which i like or dislike but i will link to you my PBP game i setting up to test my own changes to pathfinder. this is just until beta comes up and we see what the offical changes are, if anyone wants to help test these out and join my game just post on the board there your interest.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1873


Steven Hume wrote:

i like alot of what you did, have you playtested this new rules? I wont go over which i like or dislike but i will link to you my PBP game i setting up to test my own changes to pathfinder. this is just until beta comes up and we see what the offical changes are, if anyone wants to help test these out and join my game just post on the board there your interest.

http://www.thetangledweb.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1873

Thanks, I've tested some of these, but this is going to be the first week we have all of them in play and nailed down all at once.

I'll let you know how it goes.


Working on fixing typos and whatnot in the PDF now, and expanding it a bit as I go.

I've also updated the look to be a lot closer to the standard Pathfinder layout.

Lastly, I'm splitting it into multiple smaller PDFs, so that people can get the parts they want to use, and mix and match what they do and do not like.

The first pdf, the Barbarian, is up here (http://rapidshare.com/files/127439301/Barbarian.pdf.html)

Comments welcome, definitely looking for feedback.


Here's the Fighter (http://rapidshare.com/files/127462385/Fighter.pdf.html)

Liberty's Edge

Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Working on fixing typos and whatnot in the PDF now, and expanding it a bit as I go.

I've also updated the look to be a lot closer to the standard Pathfinder layout.

Lastly, I'm splitting it into multiple smaller PDFs, so that people can get the parts they want to use, and mix and match what they do and do not like.

The first pdf, the Barbarian, is up here (http://rapidshare.com/files/127439301/Barbarian.pdf.html)

Comments welcome, definitely looking for feedback.

While I certainly appreciate where you are coming from with this I may be a bit early to codify your house rules. The beta is only a little over a month out and we know there are already changes in it we haven't seen.

I have been working on our house rules trying to bring them in line with PRPG but most of it is on hold until I can download the beta. For now I have been updating rules that likely won't be affected by Pathfinder and going through my spell database trying to update our house spells and 3rd party stuff to Pathfinder rules. I certainly understand how much work is involved in what you have posted so far. I have downloaded your PDF and will post my feedback when it is digested.

A few things you wrote did make me smile. We have been using an Arcane Attack in place of standard BAB for some tome, though not the same as yours the idea is very similar.


mindgamez wrote:
Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Working on fixing typos and whatnot in the PDF now, and expanding it a bit as I go.

I've also updated the look to be a lot closer to the standard Pathfinder layout.

Lastly, I'm splitting it into multiple smaller PDFs, so that people can get the parts they want to use, and mix and match what they do and do not like.

The first pdf, the Barbarian, is up here (http://rapidshare.com/files/127439301/Barbarian.pdf.html)

Comments welcome, definitely looking for feedback.

While I certainly appreciate where you are coming from with this I may be a bit early to codify your house rules. The beta is only a little over a month out and we know there are already changes in it we haven't seen.

I have been working on our house rules trying to bring them in line with PRPG but most of it is on hold until I can download the beta. For now I have been updating rules that likely won't be affected by Pathfinder and going through my spell database trying to update our house spells and 3rd party stuff to Pathfinder rules. I certainly understand how much work is involved in what you have posted so far. I have downloaded your PDF and will post my feedback when it is digested.

A few things you wrote did make me smile. We have been using an Arcane Attack in place of standard BAB for some tome, though not the same as yours the idea is very similar.

Glad to know I wasn't the only one that hit upon the Arcane Accuracy/Attack idea.

As for the work going into this being lost when Beta is available, honestly, I'm not too worried about it. The way I've put it all together is pretty modular, so I can pretty easily carry over a lot of the style and basic design once I've got beta to work with. Also, I really just started working on this yesterday afternoon, so it's not a huge investment as of yet.

As for all the rules-design work, well, it gives me a chance to really dig in and familiarize myself with Pathfinder as it stands, which I think will be useful for understanding the intent in whatever changes there are between Alpha and Beta.

Liberty's Edge

Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Glad to know I wasn't the only one that hit upon the Arcane Accuracy/Attack idea.

As for the work going into this being lost when Beta is available, honestly, I'm not too worried about it. The way I've put it all together is pretty modular, so I can pretty easily carry over a lot of the style and basic design once I've got beta to work with. Also, I really just started working on this yesterday afternoon, so it's not a huge investment as of yet.

As for all the rules-design work, well, it gives me a chance to really dig in...

Best way to get to know the system is find what it does that breaks your house rules. :) Half the stuff I am putting in our house rules documentation for PRPG we forgot were house rules. We have been editing a copy of the SRD to suit our needs and I forgot that some of that was not original.


mindgamez wrote:


Best way to get to know the system is find what it does that breaks your house rules.

Agreed

Also, the Monk PDF is up, and can be downloaded here (http://rapidshare.com/files/127489765/Monk.pdf.html)


An idea that struck me with the rage point mechanic is that I wouldn't even try to keep tabs of it with pen and paper. Instead, I'd give the Barbarian player a stack of poker chips and let him dish those out. It saves wear and tear on character sheets, for one thing.


Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Ok, so on with the changes...

General Combat Changes

Combat Maneuvers use a DC of 10 + your opponents CMB instead of 15+, and you may use either Dex or Str on your CMB. I left that bit out of the PDF on accident, but I'll throw a new version together later that includes it and a custom character sheet with the new skills, more room for modifiers on saves/stats, and just a few quality of life tweaks here and there.

With my group "Grappling" was always a laborious process in the 3.5 rules.

When I got the Pathfinder release the "Grappled and Pinned" Conditions were a revelation.

Onto the play test of this new mechanic.

The pathfinder CMB (DC 15 + Base attack + Str bonus + Size Mod + any other modifiers) is waaaaaay to powerful and almost impossible to escape from once grappled, even with a massive escape artist total.

After a few sessions, where one character had kept a creature grappled for 7 rounds of combat literally unbalancing the whole encounter, This creature was designed to provide a challenge to anyone that liked to grapple but the +15 ignored most of its abilities. It didn't have a high grapple check but it did have abilities that activated whilst grappled if it won opposed grapple checks, possible under 3.5 rules not under pathfinder, Player character CMB +27 bonus, creature CMB +24 bonus.

Player = D20 +27 possible 47 total.
Creature = D20 +24 possible 44 total.
It can't activate it's powers and can't win the grapple check.

I decided revert back to the 3.5 rules but kept the 2 conditions instead of the penalties given in the 3.5 rules and made 3 actions available whilst in a grapple, each requiring just an opposed grapple check.

The 3 actions are, Move with opponent, doing no damage. Hold opponent doing unarmed damage unless you have a light weapon in hand. Pin opponent doing no damage until you next turn, pin is a more serious version of grappled.

So a grapple contest is now, make a melee touch attack, make an opposed grapple check, apply conditions. Damage opponent.

This streamlined grappling and lessened arguments around the table, (these arguments could last up to 15 minutes at times).

Scarab Sages

bodrin wrote:
Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Ok, so on with the changes...

General Combat Changes

Combat Maneuvers use a DC of 10 + your opponents CMB instead of 15+, and you may use either Dex or Str on your CMB. I left that bit out of the PDF on accident, but I'll throw a new version together later that includes it and a custom character sheet with the new skills, more room for modifiers on saves/stats, and just a few quality of life tweaks here and there.

With my group "Grappling" was always a laborious process in the 3.5 rules.

When I got the Pathfinder release the "Grappled and Pinned" Conditions were a revelation.

Onto the play test of this new mechanic.

The pathfinder CMB (DC 15 + Base attack + Str bonus + Size Mod + any other modifiers) is waaaaaay to powerful and almost impossible to escape from once grappled, even with a massive escape artist total.

After a few sessions, where one character had kept a creature grappled for 7 rounds of combat literally unbalancing the whole encounter, This creature was designed to provide a challenge to anyone that liked to grapple but the +15 ignored most of its abilities. It didn't have a high grapple check but it did have abilities that activated whilst grappled if it won opposed grapple checks, possible under 3.5 rules not under pathfinder, Player character CMB +27 bonus, creature CMB +24 bonus.

Player = D20 +27 possible 47 total.
Creature = D20 +24 possible 44 total.
It can't activate it's powers and can't win the grapple check.

I decided revert back to the 3.5 rules but kept the 2 conditions instead of the penalties given in the 3.5 rules and made 3 actions available whilst in a grapple, each requiring just an opposed grapple check.

The 3 actions are, Move with opponent, doing no damage. Hold opponent doing unarmed damage unless you have a light weapon in hand. Pin opponent doing no damage until you next turn, pin is a more serious version of grappled.

So a grapple contest is now, make a melee touch attack, make an opposed grapple...

what lvl were these guys? +27 to CMB? i never had a problem with locking a foe down in my games, but i use opposed roles so the numbers would be diff then yours


>>While I was at it, I removed Knowledge (Dungeoneering) because it's the silliest skill to ever grace a character sheet, and Knowledge (Local) because it overlaps too much with Geography, History, and Nobility, and because it can either be useless or ridiculous in play, depending on whether or not the person running the game rules that it works only for the "local" you consider your home or every "local" area you happen to be in. In their place I've added Knowledge (Lore), which covers aberrations, ancient mysteries, dragons, legends, and oozes, and Knowledge (Warfare), which covers giants, humanoids, military history, monstrous humanoids, tactics.

I agree with the removals, but why add (warfare); just stick it under (history and lore combined) and keep things simple?

Also, why keep Knowledge Nobility- just consolidate that with Knowledge History. If a game needs to focus on Nobility or Warfare, then the DM can add in those skills at will. I can see how they, and Local CAN be needed, but in a usual game, I don't see much demand for them.

Perhaps pathfinder should have a little box with optional knowledges- condense all the necessary ones into the character sheet (perhaps 4) and then have a blank space for Knowledge __________(fillintheblank)


Light Dragon wrote:


I agree with the removals, but why add (warfare); just stick it under (history and lore combined) and keep things simple?

Also, why keep Knowledge Nobility- just consolidate that with Knowledge History. If a game needs to focus on Nobility or Warfare, then the DM can add in those skills at will. I can see how they, and Local CAN be needed, but in a usual game, I don't see much demand for them.

Perhaps pathfinder should have a little box with optional knowledges- condense all the necessary ones into the character sheet (perhaps 4) and then have a blank space for Knowledge __________(fillintheblank)

Knowledge Nobility I did consider removing, but I'm trying very hard to only make the changes I feel are either necessary for balance, or that provide a significant benefit in terms of flavor or ease of use. Knowledge Nobility does overlap a lot with what you would expect from Knowledge History, but unlike Knowledge Local, it's pretty clear exactly what checks it covers and how, and it's not as silly/immersion breaking as knowledge dungeoneering. In the end I decided it wasn't worth removing it.

Knowledge Lore was an easy choice. I added it because I needed to move some abilities out of Knowledge Arcana to make up for what it was gaining from Spellcraft, and I needed a skill to allow identification of oozes and aberrations with Dungeoneering gone.

Knowledge Warfare came together for three reasons, I needed a good knowledge skill to allow the identification of Humanoids (I considered history for a while), I wanted to add a skill that could add some flavor to the martial classes, and with the emphasis on Acting Defensively (as opposed to Casting Defensively) I wanted melee types to have access to a knowledge skill that could provide the same synergy bonuses to concentration as arcane casters have with Knowledge Arcana. Moving Giants and Monstrous Humanoids in felt right, it fit with the same theme as identifying humanoids, and it gives Fighters another useful role in a party.

Also, adding two knowledge skills and taking away two knowledge skills forces Bards, Wizards, and other Knowledge (All) classes to invest the same number of skill ranks to max out knowledges. It's minor, but it's there, eliminating knowledges would effectively free up more skill points for those classes, and adding fill in the blank knowledges could either suck up more points, or if you're not careful allow them to get specialties that are far too broad.

I'm not entirely opposed to the idea of fill in the blank flavor knowledges, but it would put an extra burden on DMs to find a synergy bonus that fit, decide if the knowledge allowed identification of any enemy types, and to provide opportunities to use the knowledge skill in their adventures.

Knowledge Warfare and Lore have all that built in, and use the same keywords as knowledges that already existed in published adventures, so it should be fairly easy to convert other material to use them.

...

In an unrelated note, I've gotten a lot of playtesting in over the last two days with a few different groups, and I'll posting some updates on everything shortly. I've split each class into it's own pdf/section, along with a section for combat and for skills. As soon as I finish cleaning everything up and looking over the changes, I'll start posting the updated versions.


Okay. Fair enough. I'm looking forward to your further posts.

As for Synergy bonuses, it's my understanding that Paizo has removed them in 3.75.


Light Dragon wrote:


As for Synergy bonuses, it's my understanding that Paizo has removed them in 3.75.

You know, I thought so too at first, but I can't find anything that specifically mentions whether or not synergies are gone. It's entirely possible I'm just missing it now.

In either case, here's the text of the Combat section, along with bits of commentary on why I made the changes. The PDF is available here. (http://rapidshare.com/files/128242499/Combat.pdf.html)

Combat
The following rules replace some of the standard combat rules to speed up play or improve game balance.

Combat Maneuvers
Combat Maneuvers replace a normal attack in an attack action or full attack. Bull Rush and Overrun may only be made as part of a charge or move, but otherwise work as indicated. Using more than one combat maneuver in a full attack action applies a cumulative -5 penalty to each maneuver. Your combat maneuver bonus is equal to your Base Attack Bonus plus either your Strength or Dexterity modifier, whichever is higher. The base DC of a Combat Maneuver is 10 + the target’s Combat Maneuver Bonus. Improved Bull Rush, Improved Disarm, Improved Grapple, Improved Overrun, Improved Sunder, and Improved Trip add a +3 bonus to the appropriate combat maneuver checks.

Spoiler:
Moving Combat Maneuvers from Standard actions to attack actions allows them to be used as part of a full attack. As Standard actions they become less and less useful at later levels, the CMB of opponents scales much better than AC, and giving up multiple damaging attacks for a single disarm/grapple was just bad. Added the -5 penalty to prevent too much abuse from monks and flurry. Upped the Improved feats to a +3 bonus, +2 was just too weak.

Attacks Of Opportunity
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity.
Two kinds of actions provoke attacks of opportunity, moving out of a threatened square and performing a distracting action within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of or through, but not into, an opponents threatened area usually provokes an attack of opportunity from any opponent(s) threatening you. However, there are several methods of avoiding such an attack. By using the acrobatics skill or by taking a single 5 ft. step, it is possible to move without provoking an attack of opportunity.
Distracting Actions: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. By acting defensively it is possible to perform a single standard, move, or move-equivalent action without provoking attacks of opportunity.

Acting Defensively
As a full round action, you may perform a distracting action without provoking attacks of opportunity. Make a Concentration check (DC 10 + the Combat Maneuver Bonus of any opponent(s) threatening you), if the check is successful, you may perform any one standard or move equivalent action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the Concentration check fails, the related action also automatically fails, and you provoke attacks of opportunity as if you had performed the action normally.

Spoiler:
Acting defensively was always an option, just one that was rarely used and one that didn't have an explicit list of actions that it would work for. I decided to use the opponents CMB in place of melee attack bonus to avoid the DC scaling from magical equipment, and to give CMB a slightly expanded role, which helps Monks slightly. Acrobatics will see a similar change.

Combat Modifiers
The following conditions affect all attack rolls and combat maneuver checks.
While attacking a target that is distracted, unable to react, vulnerable or helpless the attacker may add precision based damage (such as sneak attack) to their attack, assuming their opponent has discernible vulnerabilities, and in the case of ranged attacks, is within the first range increment. An attacker that is considered ineffective may not make attacks of opportunity, and never adds precision based damage (such as sneak attack) to their damage.

Spoiler:
Grouping up the various combat modifiers and standardizing a bit (+2/+4 or -2/-4) helps to speed up combat a lot. Moving all the bonuses/penalties to the attack roll and changing flat footed/touch to a flat bonus saves huge amounts of time when you don't have the Dex/Armor/Shield bonuses listed out in front of you, just total AC. The fewer places you're adding/subtracting bonuses the fewer chances there are for mistakes too.
Grouping up these modifiers also helps to give DMs an easy way to adjudicate conditions that aren't explicitly listed without it feeling arbitrary.
All through these I've tried to avoid specifically mentioning another class by name, hence the precision based damage lines. Avoiding specific ties to a class or class ability helps keep the whole system working if someone wants to bring in alternate base classes, or new abilities from prestige classes.

Defender is...
Afraid (+2): Cowering, frightened, panicked, or shaken.
Distracted (+2): Entangled, flanked, grappled, sickened.
Flat Footed (+4): Blind, surprised, stunned, unaware.
Vulnerable (+4): Climbing, cowering, nauseated, running, swimming, squeezing, touch attacks.
Helpless (Special): Bound, held, paralyzed, pinned, unconscious. Helpless characters are effectively vulnerable and unable to react, for a total of +8 to any attacks made against them.

Attacker is...
Hampered (-2): Entangled, frightened, opponent fighting defensively, partial cover, shaken,.
Ineffective (-4): Blind, fighting defensively, full cover, improvised weapon, non-proficient, opponent using the total defense action, prone.

Spoiler:
For the most part these work out to the same bonus to hit/penalty to hit as you get in standard 3.5, with a few notable exceptions.
Nausea is worse now, but it comes up rarely enough that making it rougher isn't too bad. Troglodytes might deserve a slightly higher CR because of it, that's about all.
Flat footed and Touch attacks are both flat bonuses/penalties now, instead of requiring you to recalculate AC based on loss of armor/Dex.
Most other conditions that caused a loss of Dex (Running, Stunned, etc.) fall under either Flat Footed or Vulnerable.

Afraid
A character that is afraid takes a -2 penalty on saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Attacks made against opponents that are afraid get a +2 bonus to the attack roll.
Shaken: Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked. A character that is shaken is considered hampered, and takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
Frightened: A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A character that is frightened is considered hampered, and takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Panicked: A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. Panicked is a more severe state of fear than frightened. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers.
Cowering: The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. Cowering characters are considered vulnerable as well as afraid.

Distracted
Distracted characters are unable to defend themselves properly. Attacks made against distracted opponents get a +2 bonus to the attack roll.
Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty to Dexterity checks. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. An entangled character is also considered hampered, taking a -2 on attack rolls.
Grappled: Engaged in wrestling or some other form of hand-to-hand struggle with one or more attackers. A grappling character can undertake only a limited number of actions.
Flanked: An opponent that is being threatened by one or more creatures unfriendly to it is flanked.
Sickened: The character takes a -2 penalty on all weapon damage rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Flat Footed
Flat footed characters are unable to react to incoming attacks. Attacks made against flat footed opponents get a +4 bonus to the attack roll.
Blind: The character cannot see, moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character. A blind character is also considered ineffective, taking a -4 on attack rolls.
Surprised: A character who has not yet acted during a combat is surprised, not yet reacting normally to the situation.
Stunned: A stunned creature drops everything held and can’t take actions.
Unaware: The character is unaware of attackers, either because they are invisible or because they are hidden.

Vulnerable
Vulnerable characters are unable to respond properly to incoming attacks. Attacks made against vulnerable opponents get a +4 bonus to the attack roll.
Climbing: A character without a base climb speed is considered vulnerable while swimming.
Cowering: The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. Cowering characters are considered afraid as well as vulnerable.
Nauseated: Experiencing stomach distress. Nauseated creatures are unable to attack, cast spells, concentrate on spells, or do anything else requiring attention. The only action such a character can take is a single move action per turn.
Running: A character using the run action is unable to defend itself properly, and is considered vulnerable.
Swimming: A character without a base swim speed is considered vulnerable while swimming.
Squeezing: A character may have to squeeze into or through an area that isn’t as wide as the space it normall takes up. A character can squeeze through or into a space that is at least half as wide as it’s normal space. Movement while squeezing counts for twice the distance covered.
Touch attacks: Touch attacks require only that the attacker make contact with their opponent. Characters with the Arcane Accuracy class ability receive additional bonuses when making touch attacks for spells and spell-like abilities.

Helpless
A helpless opponent is someone who is bound, sleeping, paralyzed, unconscious, or otherwise at your mercy. Helpless defenders are vulnerable and flat footed, so attacks made against them have a +8 bonus to the attack roll. It is also possible to coup de grace helpless defenders. The effects of helpless do not stack with the effects of vulnerable and flat footed.
Bound: Held immobile by restraints. Bound characters may attempt to use Escape Artist to free themselves, but may take no other physical action.
Held: Held immobile by magic. Held characters may only take purely mental actions.
Paralyzed: A paralyzed character is frozen in place and unable to move or act. A paralyzed character automaticall fails any check involving Strength or Dexterity, but can take purely mental actions.
Pinned: Held immobile in a grapple. Pinned characters may attempt to escape the grapple, but may take no other physical action.
Unconscious: Knocked out and helpless.

Coup de Grace
As a full-round action, you can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless opponent. You can also use a bow or crossbow, provided you are adjacent to the target.
You automatically hit and score a critical hit. You may add any precision based damage (such as sneak attack) this attack. If the defender survives the damage, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.
Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents.
You can’t deliver a coup de grace against a creature that is immune to critical hits. You can deliver a coup de grace against a creature with total concealment, but doing this requires one round to “find” the creature, and one to deliver the coup de grace.

Hampered
A character that is hampered cannot fight freely, taking a -2 penalty to attack rolls.
Entangled: The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty to Dexterity checks. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell. An entangled character is also considered distracted, attacks against that character get a +2 bonus to the attack roll.
Frightened: A frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A character that is frightened is also considered afraid, and takes a -2 penalty on saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Attacks made against opponents that are afraid get a +2 bonus to the attack roll. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.
Opponent Fighting Defensively: A character attacking an opponent that is Fighting Defensively is considered hampered.
Partial Cover: A character attacking an opponent with partial cover is considered hampered.
Shaken: Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked. A character that is shaken is also considered afraid, and takes a -2 penalty on saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. Attacks made against opponents that are afraid get a +2 bonus to the attack roll.

Ineffective
A character that is ineffective cannot fight effectively, taking a -4 penalty to attack rolls. A character that is considered ineffective may not make attacks of opportunity, and never adds precision based damage (such as sneak attack) to their damage.
Blind: The character cannot see, moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Spot checks) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) to the blinded character.
Fighting Defensively: A character can choose to fight defensively when making an attack or full attack. If they do so, they are considered ineffectual until the end of the round, taking a -4 penalty on all attacks. In exchange, apponents making melee and ranged attacks against them are considered Hampered, taking a -2 on all attacks made against you.
Full Cover: A character attacking an opponent with full cover is considered ineffective.
Improvised Weapon: A character who uses an improvised weapon is ineffective, taking a -4 penalty to their attack rolls.
Non-Proficient: A character who uses a weapon, wears armor, or uses a shield with which he or she is not proficient is ineffective, taking a -4 penalty to their attack rolls.
Prone: The character is on the ground. Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity. Moving while prone is a full round action that inspires attacks of opportunity. Characters making attacks while prone are typically considered ineffective. Certain weapons, such as crossbows, may allow a character that is prone to attack without being considered ineffective.
A character that is prone has full cover against ranged attacks.
Opponent using Total Defense: As a standard action, a character may give up their attacks for the round in order to defend themselves. Opponents making melee and ranged attacks against that character are considered ineffective, taking a -4 to their attacks and losing any precision based damage (such as sneak attack).
Total Defense can’t be combined with fighting defensively or with the benefit of the Combat Expertise feat (since both of those require an attack or full attack). Characters using the Total Defense action can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Cover
Cover represents obstacles that stand between you and your target. This might include walls, wagons, and even other creatures. Cover provides a penalty to attacks made against you, and, in some circumstances, a bonus to your Reflex save as well.
Partial Cover: You are considered hampered when attacking around an obstacle that is up to half your reach in height or width. Attacking through a space occupied by a creature one size category smaller than you, or a creature your own size that is kneeling or sitting, provides Partial Cover.
Full Cover: You are considered ineffective when attacking around an obstacle that is larger than half your reach in height or width. Attacking through a space occupied by a creature your size or larger provides Full Cover.
Total Cover: If an opponent is entirely hidden behind another object or creature they have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
Cover and Ranged Attacks: Ranged attacks ignore partial cover if there is more than 30 feet between the target and the intervening cover. For example, an archer firing over a low wall will take no penalty for cover against targets that are at least 30 feet away.
Cover and Reflex Saves: Cover grants you a +2 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate or burst out from a point on the other side of partial cover from you and a +4 bonus on Reflex saves against attacks that originate from a point on the other side of full cover. Note that spread effects can extend around corners and thus negate this cover bonus.
Cover and Hide Checks: If you have full cover or total cover you may attempt to use Stealth, even while being observed.
Cover and Attacks of Opportunity: You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with cover relative to you.

Concealment
Concealment Miss Chance: Concealment gives the subject of a successful attack a 20% chance that the attacker missed because of the concealment. If the attacker hits, the defender must make a miss chance percentile roll to avoid being struck. Multiple concealment conditions do not stack.
Concealment and Hide Checks: You can use concealment to make a Hide check. Without concealment, you usually need cover to make a Hide check.
Total Concealment: If you have line of effect to a target but not line of sight he is considered to have total concealment from you. You can’t attack an opponent that has total concealment, though you can attack into a square that you think he occupies. A successful attack into a square occupied by an enemy with total concealment has a 50% miss chance (instead of the normal 20% miss chance for an opponent with concealment).
You can’t execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.

Saving Throws
All characters share a common base saving throw progression, based on total character level.

Level Base Save
1st +0
2nd +0
3rd +1
4th +1
5th +2
6th +2
7th +3
8th +3
9th +4
10th +4
11th +5
12th +5
13th +6
14th +6
15th +7
16th +7
17th +8
18th +8
19th +9
20th +9

Each class has one or more saving throws trained. If a character has training in a saving throw, they add a +3 training bonus to that save. Training from multiple classes does not stack.
The feats Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes each provide an additional +3 competence bonus to the appropriate save. These bonuses stack with the bonuses from Training.


Now for the skills, basically the same changes as before, Concentration is in, Knowledge Lore and Warfare in place of Dungeoneering and Local. Including this mostly for completeness (though I did fix at least one typo while I was at it).

Here's the text for those that are wary of the pdf. (http://rapidshare.com/files/128247540/Skills.pdf.html)

New Skills
Skill/Untrained/Attribute
Acrobatics/Yes/Dex
Appraise/Yes/Int
Bluff/Yes/Cha
Climb/Yes/Str
Concentration/Yes/Con
Craft/Yes/Int
Craft/Yes/Int
Craft/Yes/Int
Diplomacy/Yes/Cha
Disable Device/No/Int
Disguise/Yes/Cha
Escape Artist/Yes/Dex
Fly/Yes/Dex
Handle Animal/No/Cha
Heal/Yes/Wis
Intimidate/Yes/Cha
Knowledge (arcana)/No/Int
Knowledge (engineering)/No/Int
Knowledge (geography)/No/Int
Knowledge (history)/No/Int
Knowledge (lore)/No/Int
Knowledge (nature)/No/Int
Knowledge (nobility)/No/Int
Knowledge (planes)/No/Int
Knowledge (religion)/No/Int
Knowledge (warfare)/No/Int
Linguistics/Yes/Int
Perception/Yes/Int
Perform/Yes/Cha
Profession/Yes/Wis
Profession/Yes/Wis
Profession/Yes/Wis
Ride/Yes/Dex
Sense Motive/Yes/Wis
Sleight of Hand/No/Dex
Stealth/Yes/Dex
Survival/Yes/Wis
Swim/Yes/Dex
Use Magic Device/No/Cha

Concentration (con)
You must make a Concentration check whenever you might potentially be distracted (by taking damage, by harsh weather, and so on) while engaged in some action that requires your full attention. Such actions include casting a spell, concentrating on an active spell, directing a spell, using a spell-like ability, or using a skill that would provoke an attack of opportunity. In general, if an action wouldn’t normally provoke an attack of opportunity, you need not make a Concentration check to avoid being distracted.
If the Concentration check succeeds, you may continue with the action as normal. If the check fails, the action automatically fails and is wasted. If you were in the process of casting a spell, the spell is lost. If you were concentrating on an active spell, the spell ends as if you had ceased concentrating on it. If you were directing a spell, the direction fails but the spell remains active. If you were using a spell-like ability, that use of the ability is lost. A skill use also fails, and in some cases a failed skill check may have other ramifications as well.
While being threatened by an opponent, you may make a Concentration check to safely perform an action that would normally provoke an Attack of Opportunity. Acting Defensively is a full round action, and the DC is 10 plus the threatening opponents’s Combat Maneuver Bonus. If the Concentration check succeeds, you may perform a single standard or move equivalent action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If the Concentration check fails, the related action also automatically fails (with any appropriate ramifications), and you provoke an immediate Attack of Opportunity as if you had performed the action normally.
The various types of distractions and their difficulty are summarized below.

DC/Distracting Condition
10 Vigorous motion (on a moving mount, taking a bouncy wagon ride, in a small boat in rough water, belowdecks in a stormtossed ship).
15 Violent motion (on a galloping horse, taking a very rough wagon ride, in a small boat in rapids, on the deck of a storm-tossed ship).
20 Extraordinarily violent motion (earthquake).
15 Entangled.
20 Grappling.
5 Weather is high wind carrying rain or sleet.
10 Weather is wind-driven hail, dust, or debris.
+spell level Casting a spell.

If more than one type of distraction is present, make a check for each one; any failed Concentration check indicates that the task is not completed.
If you are damaged while attempting to Concentrate on an action, or you are taking continuous damage, add half the damage taken to the Concentration check’s DC.
Action: None or Full Round. Making a Concentration check is either a free action (when attempted reactively) or a full round action (when attempted act defensively.)
Try Again: Yes, though a success doesn’t cancel the effect of a previous failure, such as the loss of a spell you were casting or the disruption of a spell you were concentrating on.
Special: A character with the Combat Concentration feat gets a +4 bonus on Concentration checks made to Act Defensively.

Knowledge (Int)
Like the Craft and Profession skills, Knowledge actually encompasses a number of unrelated skills. Knowledge represents a study of some body of lore, possibly an academic or even scientific discipline.
Arcana: arcane symbols, arcane traditions, constructs, magical beasts.
Engineering: aqueducts, buildings, bridges, fortifications, mechanical devices.
Geography: lands, terrain, climate, people.
History: customs, colonies, founding of cities, laws, migrations, wars.
Lore: aberrations, ancient mysteries, cryptic phrases, dragons, legends, oozes.
Nature: animals, fey, plants, seasons and cycles, vermin, weather.
Nobility: family trees, heraldry, lineages, mottoes, personalities.
Planes: the Astral Plane, the Ethereal Plane, the Inner Planes, the Outer Planes, outsiders, elementals, magic related to the planes.
Religion: ecclesiastic tradition, gods and goddesses, holy symbols, mythic history, outsiders, undead.
Warfare: giants, humanoids, military history, monstrous humanoids, tactics.
Answering a question within your field of study has a DC of 10 (for really easy questions), 15 (for basic questions), or 20 to 30 (for really tough questions).
With a successful Knowledge check (DC 10 + monster CR), you can also identify certain monsters, their abilities, weaknesses, and special powers. Success means that you learn one piece of information. For every 5 points by which your check result exceeds the DC you learn another piece of information.
Certain knowledge skills are particularly useful for and against casters. Knowledge (arcana) can be used to identify arcane spells and their effects, and Knowledge (religion) can similarly identify divine spells.

Identify... DC
...a spell using detect magic. 10 + caster level
...a spell effect that is in place 15 + caster level
...a spell as it is being cast 15 + caster level
...materials created by magic 20 + caster level

Certain casters may also use Knowledge (arcana) and Knowledge (religion) to prepare and learn new spells. Learning a new spell from a spellbook or scroll is DC 10 + spell level. Preparing a spell from a borrowed spellbook is DC 15 + spell level.
Action: Knowledge checks are a free action.
Try Again: No. If you fail, you simply do not know the answer.
Synergy:
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (arcana), you get a +2 bonus on Concentration checks made while casting an Arcane spell.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (engineering), you get a +2 bonus on Perception checks made to find secret doors or hidden compartments.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (geography), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made to avoid becoming lost or to avoid natural hazards.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (history), you get a +2 bonus on other Knowledge checks made to identify a creature.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (lore), you get a +2 bonus on Appraise checks made to identify a magic item.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nature), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made in natural environments.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (nobility), you get a +2 bonus on Diplomacy checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (planes), you get a +2 bonus on Survival checks made while on other planes.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (religion), you get a +2 bonus on turning checks.
If you have 5 or more ranks in Knowledge (warfare), you get a +2 bonus on Concentration checks while attempting to Act Defensively.
Untrained: Knowledge checks may be made untrained, however the DC of the check is increased by 10.


Major changes from Pathfinder standard classes are marked with a dark background in the pdf, unfortunately that's not really an option here.

Barbarian (http://rapidshare.com/files/128254058/Barbarian.pdf.html)
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Hit Die: d10.
Trained Saves: Fortitude.

Level/BAB/Special Abilities
1st/+1/Fast movement, Rage
2nd/+2/Uncanny dodge
3rd/+3/Rage power
4th/+4/Rugged
5th/+5/Improved uncanny dodge
6th/+6/Rage power
7th/+7/Damage reduction 1/—
8th/+8/Rage power
9th/+9/Intimidating Presence
10th/+10/Rage power, Damage reduction 2/—
11th/+11/Greater rage
12th/+12/Rage power
13th/+13/Damage reduction 3/—
14th/+14/Rage power
15th/+15/Frightening Presence
16th/+16/Rage power, Damage reduction 4/—
17th/+17/Tireless rage
18th/+18/Rage power
19th/+19/Damage reduction 5/—
20th/+20/Mighty rage

Class Skills
The barbarian’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (nature) (Int), Profession (Wis), Perception (Wis), Ride (Dex), Survival (Wis), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
All of the following are class features of the barbarian.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A barbarian is proficient with all simple and martial weapons, light armor, medium armor, and shields (except tower shields).
Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian’s land speed is faster than the norm for his race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian’s speed because of any load carried or armor worn.
Rage (Ex): A barbarian can call upon inner reserves of strength and ferocity, granting her additional combat prowess. Once per day, a barbarian can fly into a rage, temporarily gaining a +4 bonus to Strength, a +4 bonus to Constitution, and a +2 morale bonus on Will saves, but a -2 penalty to Armor Class. The increase in Constitution increases the barbarian’s hit points by 2 points per level, but these hit points go away at the end of the rage when her Constitution score drops back to normal. While raging, a barbarian cannot use the Concentration skill, or any abilities that require patience or concentration such as spell casting. A fit of rage lasts for a number of rounds equal to 3 + the character’s (newly improved) Constitution modifier. A barbarian may prematurely end her rage. At the end of the rage, the barbarian loses the rage modifiers and restrictions and becomes fatigued (-2 penalty to Strength, -2 penalty to Dexterity, can’t charge or run) for one minute per round they spent raging (unless she is a 17th-level barbarian, at which point this limitation no longer applies).
Rage Powers: As a barbarian gains experience, she learns to harness her rage in new ways. Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains one rage power. She gains an additional rage power at 6th level and every two levels after that, until 18th level (8th, 10th, 12th, 14th, 16th and 18th level). With the exception of Extra Raging and Swift, a barbarian cannot select an individual power more than once. Unless otherwise noted, these abilities are swift actions and only one may be used per round.
Animal Fury (Ex): The barbarian may make a bite attack at her highest attack bonus. If the bite hits, it deals 1d6 points of damage (assuming the barbarian is Medium; 1d4 points of damage if Small) plus the barbarian’s Strength modifier. A barbarian can use this power while grappled or pinned. If the bite attack hits, any grapple checks made against the target this round are at a +2 bonus.
Extra Rage (Ex): The Barbarian may rage twice more per day. This ability may be taken more than once, adding two additional uses of rage per day each time.
Indomitable Will (Ex): For one round, the barbarian gains a +4 bonus on Will saves to resist enchantment spells. This bonus stacks with all other modifiers, including the morale bonus on Will saves she also receives during her rage.
Increased Damage Reduction (Ex): For one round, the barbarian gains damage reduction 1/—. This damage reduction stacks with that granted by the barbarian class feature. This ability may be taken more than once, improving the damage reduction by 1/— each time it is taken.
Knockback (Ex): For one round, anyone hit by the barbarian’s melee attacks must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarians level + her Str modifier) or be pushed back 5 feet, if possible.
Renewed Vigor (Su): As a swift action, the barbarian heals 1 points of damage per barbarian level, and gains fast healing 1 for a number of rounds equal to her Con modifier.
Roused Anger (Ex): The barbarian may enter rage even if fatigued, after her rage ends the barbarian becomes exhausted for one minute per round they spent raging.
Sharpened Senses (Ex): For one round, the barbarian’s senses sharpen and she gain Low Light Vision, Scent, and a +2 on all Perception checks. If the barbarian already has Low Light Vision, this ability grants Darkvision instead.
Swift (Ex): While raging, the barbarian gains a +10 ft. of movement speed. This ability may be taken more than once, adding an additional +10 ft. of movement speed each time.
Unexpected Strike (Ex): As part of a full attack action, the barbarian may make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus. This additional attack does not stack with haste or other similar effects.
Whirling Frenzy (Ex): For one round, the barbarian gains a +3 morale bonus to all reflex saves, and anyone attacking her is considered ineffective, taking a -4 to their attack roll.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 2nd level, a barbarian can react to danger before her senses would normally allow her to do so and is never considered flat footed. If a barbarian already has uncanny dodge from a different class, he automatically gains improved uncanny dodge (see below) instead.
Rugged (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a barbarian gains a bonus of 2 hp per level of barbarian.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): At 5th level and higher, a barbarian has greatly heightened senses and focus, and is never considered distracted.
Damage Reduction (Ex): At 7th level, a barbarian gains damage reduction. Subtract 1 from the damage the barbarian takes each time he is dealt damage from a weapon or a natural attack. At 10th level, and every three barbarian levels thereafter (13th, 16th, and 19th level), this damage reduction rises by 1 point. Damage reduction can reduce damage to 0 but not below 0.
Intimidating Presence (Ex): At 9th level, while raging, a barbarian can unsettle their foes in combat. Any time they score a critical hit or deal lethal damage to a foe they may make an Intimidate check against one adjacent foe as a free action. If the barbarian successfully demoralizes her opponent, the foe is shaken for 2d6 rounds.
Greater Rage (Ex): At 11th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +6 and the morale bonus on her Will saves increases to +3.
Frightful Presence (Ex): At 15th level, any foe witnessing a barbarian raging may become frightened. Any time the barbarian enters a rage or attacks, opponents within 30 ft. must make a Will Save (DC 10 + 1/2 the barbarians level + her Cha modifier). Those that fail are frightened for 5d6 rounds. An opponent that succeeds on the saving throw is immune to the barbarian’s frightful presence for 24 hours.
Tireless Rage (Ex): Starting at 17th level, a barbarian no longer becomes fatigued at the end of her rage.
Mighty Rage (Ex): At 20th level, when a barbarian enters rage, the bonus to her Strength and Constitution increases to +8. The penalty to AC remains at -2.


Major changes from Pathfinder standard classes are marked with a dark background in the pdf, unfortunately that's not really an option here.

Bard (http://rapidshare.com/files/128257193/Bard.pdf.html)
Alignment: Any nonlawful.
Hit Die: d8.
Trained Saves: Reflex and Willpower.

Level/BAB/Special Abilities
1st +0 Bardic knowledge, bardic performance, countersong, distraction, fascinate, inspire courage
2nd +1 Well-versed
3rd +2 Inspire competence
4th +3
5th +3 Lore master 1/day
6th +4 Suggestion
7th +5
8th +6 Dirge of doom, discordant performance
9th +6 Inspire greatness
10th +7
11th +8 Lore master 2/day
12th +9 Song of freedom, soothing performance
13th +9
14th +10 Frightening tune, paralyzing show
15th +11 Inspire heroics
16th +12
17th +12 Lore master 3/day
18th +13 Mass suggestion
19th +14 Jack of all trades
20th +15 Deadly performance

Class Skills
The bard’s class skills are Acrobatics (Dex), Appraise (Int), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Knowledge (all) (Int), Linguistics (Int), Perception (Wis), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand (Dex), Stealth (Dex), and Use Magic Device (Cha).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 6 + Int modifier

Class Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A bard is proficient with all simple weapons, plus the longsword, rapier, sap, short sword, shortbow, and whip. Bards are also proficient with light armor and shields (except tower shields).
A bard can cast bard spells while wearing light armor and using a shield without incurring the normal arcane spell failure chance. Like any other arcane spellcaster though, a bard wearing medium or heavy armor or using a shield incurs a chance of arcane spell failure if the spell in question has a somatic component. A multiclass bard still incurs the normal arcane spell failure chance for arcane spells received from other classes.
Spells: A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list. He can cast any spell he knows without preparing it ahead of time. Every bard spell has a verbal component (singing, reciting, or music). To learn or cast a spell, a bard must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a bard’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the bard’s Charisma modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a bard can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. His base daily spell allotment is given below. In addition, he receives bonus spells per day if he has a high Charisma score.

Bard Spells Per Day
LVL 1 2 3 4 5 6
1st 1 — — — — —
2nd 2 — — — — —
3rd 3 — — — — —
4th 3 1 — — — —
5th 4 2 — — — —
6th 4 3 — — — —
7th 4 3 1 — — —
8th 4 4 2 — — —
9th 5 4 3 — — —
10th 5 4 3 1 — —
11th 5 4 4 2 — —
12th 5 5 4 3 — —
13th 5 5 4 3 1 —
14th 5 5 4 4 2 —
15th 5 5 5 4 3 —
16th 5 5 5 4 3 1
17th 5 5 5 4 4 2
18th 5 5 5 5 4 3
19th 5 5 5 5 5 4
20th 5 5 5 5 5 5

The bard’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of the bard’s choice. At each new bard level, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated below. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score. The numbers given below are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the bard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the bard has gained some understanding of through study.

Bard Spells Known
LVL 0 1 2 3 4 5 6
1st 4 2 — — — — —
2nd 5 3 — — — — —
3rd 6 4 — — — — —
4th 6 4 2 — — — —
5th 6 4 3 — — — —
6th 6 4 4 — — — —
7th 6 5 4 2 — — —
8th 6 5 4 3 — — —
9th 6 5 4 4 — — —
10th 6 5 5 4 2 — —
11th 6 6 5 4 3 — —
12th 6 6 5 4 4 — —
13th 6 6 5 5 4 2 —
14th 6 6 6 5 4 3 —
15th 6 6 6 5 4 4 —
16th 6 6 6 5 5 4 2
17th 6 6 6 6 5 4 3
18th 6 6 6 6 5 4 4
19th 6 6 6 6 5 5 4
20th 6 6 6 6 6 5 5

Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard “loses” the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell’s level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.
As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spell’s level.
Bardic Knowledge: At 1st level, a bard selects one Knowledge skill. He gains 1 bonus skill rank to place in that Knowledge skill and an additional skill rank every time he gains a level. In addition, a bard adds 1/2 his level (minimum 1) to all Knowledge skill checks and may make such checks untrained.
Bardic Performance: Once per day per bard level, a bard can use his Perform skill to produce magical effects on those around him (usually including himself, if desired). Each ability requires both a minimum bard level and a minimum number of ranks in the Perform skill. If a bard does not have the required number of ranks in at least one Perform skill, he does not gain the bardic performance ability until he acquires the needed ranks. Bardic performances require no specific instrument or type of Performance.
Starting a bardic performance effect is a standard action. Spell-like (Sp) bardic performance abilities require concentration; the bard must take a standard action each round to maintain such abilities. Even while using a bardic performance ability that doesn’t require concentration, a bard cannot cast spells, activate magic items by spell completion (such as scrolls), or activate magic items by magic word (such as wands).
Countersong (Su): A bard with 1 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or song to counter magical effects that depend on sound. Each round of the countersong, he makes a Perform check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself ) that is affected by a sonic or language-dependent magical attack may use the bard’s Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the countersong is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous sonic or language-dependent magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it hears the countersong, but it must use the bard’s Perform check result for the save. Countersong does not work on effects that don’t allow saves. The bard may keep up the countersong for 10 rounds.
Distraction (Su): A bard with 1 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to counter magical effects that depend on sight. Each round of the distraction, he makes a Perform check. Any creature within 30 feet of the bard (including the bard himself) that is affected by an illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack may use the bard’s Perform check result in place of its saving throw if, after the saving throw is rolled, the Perform check result proves to be higher. If a creature within range of the distraction is already under the effect of a noninstantaneous illusion (pattern) or illusion (figment) magical attack, it gains another saving throw against the effect each round it sees the distraction, but it must use the bard’s Perform check result for the save. Distraction does not work on effects that don’t allow saves. The bard may keep up the distraction for 10 rounds.
Fascinate (Sp): A bard with 1 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his music or poetics to cause one creature to become fascinated with him. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 1st, he can fascinate one additional creature. To be affected, an enemy must be able to perceive the bard’s performance and be within 30 feet. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot use fascinate on that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature sits quietly and listens to the song, taking no other actions, for as long as the bard continues to play. While fascinated, a target takes a –4 penalty on skill checks made as reactions, such as Perception checks. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, casting a spell, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting ability.
Inspire Courage (Su): A bard with 1 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to inspire courage in his allies (including himself ), bolstering them against fear and improving their combat abilities. To be affected, an ally must be able to percieve the bard’s performance. The effect lasts for as long as the ally can percieve the bard‘s performance and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally receives a +1 morale bonus on saving throws against charm and fear effects and a +1 morale bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At 8th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this bonus increases by 1 (+2 at 8th, +3 at 14th, and +4 at 20th). Inspire courage is a mind-affecting ability.
Inspire Competence (Su): A bard with 3 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to help an ally succeed at a task. To be affected, an ally must be able to percieve the bard’s performance. The ally gets a +2 competence bonus on skill checks with a particular skill as long as the ally can percieve the bard‘s performance. Certain uses of this ability are infeasible, such as Sneak attempts. A bard can’t inspire competence in himself. Inspire competence is a mind-affecting ability.
Suggestion (Sp): A bard of 6th level or higher with 6 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make a suggestion (as the spell) to a creature that he has already fascinated (see above). Using this ability does not break the bard’s concentration on the fascinate effect, nor does it allow a second saving throw against the fascinate effect. Making a suggestion doesn’t count against a bard’s daily limit on bardic performances. A Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 bard’s level + bard’s Cha modifier) negates the effect. This ability affects only a single creature (but see mass suggestion, below). Suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind affecting, language-dependent ability.
Dirge of Doom (Su): A bard with 8 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to foster a sense of growing dread in his enemies, causing them to take a number of penalties. To be affected, an enemy must be able to perceive the bard’s performance and be within 30 feet. Affected enemies are shaken and take a –2 penalty on ability checks, attack rolls, saving throws, and skill checks so long as the bard continues performing and for 3 rounds thereafter. At 14th level, and every six bard levels thereafter, this penalty increases by 1 (-3 at 14th, and -4 at 20th).
Discordant Performance (Su):[/i] A bard with 8 or more ranks in a Perform skill can can use his performance to cause his enemies to become confused. To be affected, an enemy must be able to perceive the bard’s performance and be within 30 feet. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot use discordant performance on that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature becomes confused so long as the bard continues performing. Each round at the end of its turn, each subject of a discordant performance may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect, if the save is successful, the bard cannot use discordant performance on that creature again for 24 hours
Inspire Greatness (Su): A bard with 9 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to inspire greatness in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet, granting her extra fighting capability. For every three levels a bard attains beyond 9th, he can inspire one additional ally. To be affected, an ally must be able to percieve the bard’s performance. The effect lasts for as long as the ally can percieve the bard‘s performance and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally gains 2 bonus Hit Dice (d10s), the commensurate number of temporary hit points (apply the target’s Constitution modifier, if any, to these bonus Hit Dice), a +2 competence bonus on attack rolls, and a +1 competence bonus on Fortitude saves. The bonus Hit Dice count as regular Hit Dice for determining the effect of spells that are Hit Dice dependant. Inspire greatness is a mind-affecting ability.
Song of Freedom (Sp): A bard with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to the break enchantment spell, with a caster level equal to the bard’s class level. Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and music, and it functions on a single target within 30 feet. A bard can’t use song of freedom on himself.
Soothing Performance (Sp): A bard with 12 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to create an effect equivalent to the mass cure light wounds spell, with a caster level equal to the bard’s class level. In addition, this performance removes the fatigued, sickened, and shakened condition from all those affected. Using this ability requires 1 minute of uninterrupted concentration and performance, and it functions on all targets within 30 feet.
Frightening Tune (Sp): A bard with 14 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to cause fear in his enemies. To be affected, an enemy must be able to perceive the bard’s performance and be within 30 feet. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot use frightening tune on that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature becomes frightened for 1d4 rounds plus the bard’s Charisma modifier.
Paralyzing Show (Sp): A bard with 14 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to paralyze his enemies. To be affected, an enemy must be able to perceive the bard’s performance and be within 30 feet. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for each affected creature’s Will save against the effect. If a creature’s saving throw succeeds, the bard cannot use paralyzing show on that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the creature becomes paralyzed so long as the bard continues performing. Each round at the end of its turn, each subject of a paralyzing show may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect, if the save is successful, the bard cannot use paralyzing show on that creature again for 24 hours.
Inspire Heroics (Su): A bard with 15 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to inspire tremendous heroism in himself or a single willing ally within 30 feet. For every three bard levels the character attains beyond 15th, he can inspire one additional ally. To be affected, an ally must be able to percieve the bard’s performance. The effect lasts for as long as the ally can percieve the bard‘s performance and for 5 rounds thereafter. An affected ally gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws and a +4 dodge bonus to AC. Inspire heroics is a mind-affecting ability.
Mass Suggestion (Sp): This ability functions like suggestion, above, except that a bard of 18th level or higher with 18 or more ranks in a Perform skill can make the suggestion simultaneously to any number of creatures that he has already fascinated (see above). Mass suggestion is an enchantment (compulsion), mind-affecting, language dependent ability.
Deadly Performance (Su): A bard with 20 or more ranks in a Perform skill can use his performance to cause one enemy to die from joy or sorrow. To be affected, the enemy must be able to perceive the bard’s performance and be within 30 feet. To use the ability, a bard makes a Perform check. His check result is the DC for the affected enemy’s Will save against the effect. If the enemy’s saving throw succeeds, the enemy is stunned for 1d4 rounds and the bard cannot use deadly performance on that creature again for 24 hours. If its saving throw fails, the deadly performance succeeds.
Thereafter, the bard may attempt to slay the victim at any time. To make such an attempt, the bard merely speaks a single word or sings a single note in the subject’s presence (a free action), and unless the target makes a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 the bard’s level + the bard’s Cha modifier), it dies. If the saving throw is successful, the target is no longer in danger from that particular deadly performance, but it may still be affected by another one at a later time.
Cantrips (Sp): A bard knows a number of cantrips. He can cast these spells at will as a spell-like ability. The number of cantrips a bard knows is noted on the table above under 0 level spells known. Cantrips are treated like any other spell cast by the bard in terms of duration and other variables based on level.
Well-Versed (Ex): At 2nd level, the bard becomes resistant to the bardic performance of others. The bard gains a +4 bonus on saving throws made against bardic performance, sonic, and language-dependent effects.
Lore Master (Ex): At 5th level, the bard becomes a master of lore and can take 10 on any Knowledge skill check that he has ranks in. A bard can choose not to take 10 and can instead roll normally. In addition, once per day, the bard can take 20 on any Knowledge skill check as a standard action. He can use this ability one additional time per day for every six levels he possesses beyond 5th, to a maximum of three times per day at 17th level.
Jack of All Trades (Ex): At 19th level, the bard can use any skill, even if the skill requires him to be trained. In addition, all skills are now considered class skills. If the bard has 5 or more ranks in a skill, he can take 10 on the skill, even if it is not normally allowed.


For what it's worth, I've done the same thing you have with regards to separating Concentration and Spellcraft, and rolling Knowledge (arcana) into the latter. I've added Knowledge (warfare) and Knowledge (lore) skills as well.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
For what it's worth, I've done the same thing you have with regards to separating Concentration and Spellcraft, and rolling Knowledge (arcana) into the latter. I've added Knowledge (warfare) and Knowledge (lore) skills as well.

Wow, seriously? The Concentration/spellcraft part I could see being an easy coincidence, but both of us coming up with Knowledge(warfare) and (lore) is definitely a bit of awesome parallel development.

What else have you come up with? If we think that much alike I'm definitely interested in seeing any other ideas you've had.

Scarab Sages

Brodiggan Gale wrote:
Kirth Gersen wrote:
For what it's worth, I've done the same thing you have with regards to separating Concentration and Spellcraft, and rolling Knowledge (arcana) into the latter. I've added Knowledge (warfare) and Knowledge (lore) skills as well.

Wow, seriously? The Concentration/spellcraft part I could see being an easy coincidence, but both of us coming up with Knowledge(warfare) and (lore) is definitely a bit of awesome parallel development.

What else have you come up with? If we think that much alike I'm definitely interested in seeing any other ideas you've had.

looks like your trying to redesign PF, i am waiting till beta comes out until doing any mods to the system, though i am testing some changes i made in PBP why we meet for beta


Steven Hume wrote:
looks like your trying to redesign PF, i am waiting till beta comes out until doing any mods to the system, though i am testing some changes i made in PBP why we meet for beta

Heh, just about. Like I said to someone else, it's not really so much about redesigning the whole deal as using all of this to get a rock hard sense of where the Alpha3 stood when Beta comes out. So that I can appreciate the design intent behind any changes.

I'm also pretty sure I'll want to roll in some house rules for Beta, just because I can't help but meddle, and this is good practice. (Plus I can bring them together much more quickly since I'll already have my styles, page layouts, table formats ready and waiting.)

All this is good practice for my day job too. Page layout and all that.

...

Plus it's fun, and yeah, I really am that geeky.


Here's the Cleric (http://rapidshare.com/files/128287832/Cleric.pdf.html)
No major changes to clerics, just the needed stuff to skills/trained saves to make it all work with the new system.

Here's the Druid (http://rapidshare.com/files/128288439/Druid.pdf.html)
Again, no major changes outside of skills/trained saves. Just including these for completeness.


Major changes from Pathfinder standard classes are marked with a dark background in the pdf, unfortunately that's not really an option here.

Fighter (http://rapidshare.com/files/128289599/Fighter.pdf.html)
Alignment: Any.
Hit Die: d10.
Trained Saves: Fortitude.

Level BAB Special
1st +1 Bonus feat
2nd +2 Bonus feat
3rd +3 Defensive Training
4th +4 Bonus feat, Combat Training
5th +5 Offensive Training
6th +6 Bonus feat
7th +7 Defensive Training
8th +8 Bonus feat, Combat Training
9th +9 Offensive Training
10th +10 Bonus feat
11th +11 Defensive Training
12th +12 Bonus feat, Combat Training
13th +13 Offensive Training
14th +14 Bonus feat
15th +15 Defensive Training
16th +16 Bonus feat , Combat Training
17th +17 Offensive Training
18th +18 Bonus feat
19th +19 Armor mastery
20th +20 Bonus feat,Weapon mastery

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills are Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Knowledge (engineering) (Int), Knowledge (warfare) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Swim (Str).
Skill Ranks Per Level: 4 + Int modifier.

Class Features
The following are class features of the fighter.
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: A fighter is proficient with all simple and martial weapons and with all armor (heavy, medium, and light) and shields (including tower shields).
Bonus Feats: At 1st level, and at every even level thereafter, a fighter gains a bonus feat in addition to those gained from normal advancement (meaning that the fighter gains a feat at every level). These bonus feats must be selected from either fighter bonus feats or combat feats (see the Feats chapter).
Defensive Training (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, a fighter gains additional defense against attacks and added ease in the use of armor. The fighter gains an additional +1 dodge bonus to his armor class, reduces the armor check penalty of any armor worn by 1 (to a minimum of 0), and increases the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed by his armor by 1. Every four levels thereafter (7th, 11th, and 15th), a fighter gains even more protection, increasing these bonuses by +1 each time, for a total of +4 dodge to armor class at 15th level, with a –4 reduction to the armor check penalty and a +4 increase to the maximum Dexterity bonus allowed.
Combat Training (Ex): Self discipline and training give the Fighter a surprising adaptability. Starting at 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter until 16th level (8th, 12th, 16th) a fighter can one of the following Combat Training options.
Focus (Ex): The fighter adds Willpower to their list of Trained saves and adds Concentration to their list of Class skills. (Class skills with at least one Rank and Trained saves receive a +3 bonus. Multiple training bonuses from multiclassing do not stack.)
Awareness (Ex): The fighter adds Reflex to their list of Trained saves and adds Perception to their list of Class skills. (Class skills with at least one Rank and Trained saves receive a +3 bonus. Multiple training bonuses from multiclassing do not stack.)
Acumen (Ex): The fighter adds a +3 competence bonus to their Combat Maneuvers Bonus and on Bluff checks made to Feint.
Hustle (Ex): The fighter’s base speed increaseses by 10 ft. and they may make a 10 ft. move in place of a 5 ft. step.
Resilience (Ex): The fighter ignores the effects of Fatigued, Shaken, and Sickened. This ability does not remove these conditions, it merely allows the fighter to ignore the penalties they normally impart. In addition, while Dazed, Nauseated, or Stunned the Fighter may make a single Standard action each round (this action replaces the single move action a nauseated character would normally make.)
Celerity (Ex): The fighter may take a full round action during surprise rounds. In addition, the fighter is always considered armed for the purposes of determining threatened area, and may draw a weapon as part of an attack of opportunity.
Forethought (Ex): The Fighter is no longer limited to readying standard, move equivalent, and free actions. They may now ready a full round action as well. They may take a five foot step immediately, or as part of the full round action they ready, but no other action is possible on a turn in which they ready a full round action.
Offensive Training (Ex): Starting at 5th level, a fighter can select one group of weapons, as noted below. Whenever he attacks with a weapon from this group, he gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls.
Every four levels thereafter (9th, 13th, and 17th), a fighter becomes further trained in another group of weapons. He gains a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls when using a weapon from this group. In addition, the bonuses granted by previous weapon groups increase by +1 each. For example, when a fighter reaches 9th level, he receives a +1 bonus to attack and damage rolls with one weapon group and a +2 bonus on attack and damage rolls with the weapon group selected at 5th level. Bonuses granted from overlapping groups do not stack. Take the highest bonus granted for a weapon if it resides in two or more groups.
Weapon groups are defined as follows (GMs may add other weapons to these groups, or add entirely new groups):
Axes: battleaxe, dwarven waraxe, greataxe, handaxe, heavy pick, light pick, orc double axe, and throwing axe.
Blades, Heavy: bastard sword, falchion, greatsword, longsword, scimitar, scythe, and two-bladed sword.
Blades, Light: dagger, kama, kukri, rapier, sickle, and short sword.
Bows: composite longbow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow.
Close: gauntlet, heavy shield, light shield, punching dagger, sap, spiked armor, spiked gauntlet, spiked shield, and unarmed strike.
Crossbows: hand crossbow, heavy crossbow, light crossbow, heavy repeating crossbow, and light repeating crossbow.
Double: dire flail, dwarven urgosh, gnome hooked hammer, orc double axe, and two-bladed sword.
Flails: dire flail, flail, heavy flail, morningstar, nunchaku, spiked chain, and whip.
Hammers: club, light hammer, light mace, greatclub, heavy mace, and warhammer.
Monk: kama, nunchaku, sai, shuriken, siangham, and unarmed strike.
Natural: Bite, Claw, Talon, Gore, Slap, Slam, Sting, and Tentacle.
Pole Arms: glaive, guisarme, halberd, ranseur, and quarterstaff.
Spears: javelin, lance, longspear, shortspear, spear, and trident.
Supernatural: All weaponlike spells and spell-like abilities.
Thrown: bolas, club, dart, dagger, handaxe, javelin, light hammer, net, shortspear, shuriken, sling, spear, and trident.
Armor Mastery (Ex): At 19th level, a fighter gains DR 5/— whenever he is wearing armor or using a shield and armor counts as one category lighter for determining movement speed. If a fighter also has the Hustle combat training, movement speed is never reduced by armor.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 20th level, a fighter chooses one weapon, such as the longsword, greataxe, or longbow. Any attacks made with that weapon automatically confirm all critical threats and have their damage multiplier increased by 1 (a ×2 becomes a ×3, for example). In addition, he cannot be disarmed while wielding a weapon of this type.


Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Like I said to someone else, it's not really so much about redesigning the whole deal as using all of this to get a rock hard sense of where the Alpha3 stood when Beta comes out. So that I can appreciate the design intent behind any changes.

I'm also pretty sure I'll want to roll in some house rules for Beta, just because I can't help but meddle, and this is good practice.

I too am a big fan of house-rules and have several that I've considered based off of the Alpha material we've seen thus far.

However, once the PfRPG beta arrives, I personally want to try and not use any house rules as much as I possibly can (Will save DC 60).

Why?

Simply put, the value of the playtesting feedback that we provide will be be tainted if we don't use the rules-as-written during the testing phase. If Jason needs for us to give him feedback on how the barbarian class that he wrote works, saying, "Oh I didn't like how that looked so I did this instead," doesn't necessarily help him in the way he has asked. (Although that's still better than giving feedback without noting that You've changed things. ;)

Spoiler:
The first few times this was pointed out to me [by other board members] after I spent many hours writing up alternate rule suggestions, I was pretty resentful. However, I've come to see that there's a good reason for it. At the very least, if guys like You and I want to theorize about new rules and use them for our own sake that's one thing, but it's not the same as beta-testing. Hence I've relegated most of my own alternate rule ideas to the Rules Suggestion forum since then so as not to blur that line.


Laithoron wrote:
Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Like I said to someone else, it's not really so much about redesigning the whole deal as using all of this to get a rock hard sense of where the Alpha3 stood when Beta comes out. So that I can appreciate the design intent behind any changes.

I'm also pretty sure I'll want to roll in some house rules for Beta, just because I can't help but meddle, and this is good practice.

I too am a big fan of house-rules and have several that I've considered based off of the Alpha material we've seen thus far.

However, once the PfRPG beta arrives, I personally want to try and not use any house rules as much as I possibly can (Will save DC 60).

Why?

Simply put, the value of the playtesting feedback that we provide will be be tainted if we don't use the rules-as-written during the testing phase. If Jason needs for us to give him feedback on how the barbarian class that he wrote works, saying, "Oh I didn't like how that looked so I did this instead," doesn't necessarily help him in the way he has asked. (Although that's still better than giving feedback without noting that You've changed things. ;)

Hmmm... drat... I hate to admit that makes a lot of sense.. but it does...

::sigh::
Bit tired right now, but tomorrow I think I'll take your suggestion and move all this to the Rules suggestion forum.


I hate being a kill-joy, but I figured such a heads-up might sting less if communicated by someone who is also a house-rulin' fiend.

Maybe the Post Monster could move the topic if You wanted them to...

Incidentally, I know from experience that there's a good reason behind why various DMs see the need to house-rule. It would be a somewhat different way of thinking, but I bet it would be beneficial to go more in-depth (in the testing forums themselves) about what situations kept occurring in game that led You to seek alternate ways of handling certain situations from what's in PfRPG.

i.e. Instead of briefly noting that You didn't like something and then going into Your own suggestion, perhaps expand on why You didn't like it and the problems it presented in game. As thorough and detailed as You are, I have little doubt You could lay it out quite clearly! :)

BTW, regarding the Save Progressions, here's one solution that I proposed that You might find useful:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/general/archives/suggestionHandlingMulticlassBABSaves


Laithoron wrote:

I hate being a kill-joy, but I figured such a heads-up might sting less if communicated by someone who is also a house-rulin' fiend.

Maybe the Post Monster could move the topic if You wanted them to...

Incidentally, I know from experience that there's a good reason behind why various DMs see the need to house-rule. It would be a somewhat different way of thinking, but I bet it would be beneficial to go more in-depth (in the testing forums themselves) about what situations kept occurring in game that led You to seek alternate ways of handling certain situations from what's in PfRPG.

i.e. Instead of briefly noting that You didn't like something and then going into Your own suggestion, perhaps expand on why You didn't like it and the problems it presented in game. As thorough and detailed as You are, I have little doubt You could lay it out quite clearly! :)

Yeah, I'll be happy to do the moving myself. It gives me a chance to compile it all. But if, in say, a weeks time this thread could be closed and removed, I would not be opposed to any action the Post Monster might take in that direction.

I'll be trying to post more of the reasons why I made the changes as well.


Brodiggan Gale wrote:
Laithoron wrote:

I hate being a kill-joy, but I figured such a heads-up might sting less if communicated by someone who is also a house-rulin' fiend.

Maybe the Post Monster could move the topic if You wanted them to...

Incidentally, I know from experience that there's a good reason behind why various DMs see the need to house-rule. It would be a somewhat different way of thinking, but I bet it would be beneficial to go more in-depth (in the testing forums themselves) about what situations kept occurring in game that led You to seek alternate ways of handling certain situations from what's in PfRPG.

i.e. Instead of briefly noting that You didn't like something and then going into Your own suggestion, perhaps expand on why You didn't like it and the problems it presented in game. As thorough and detailed as You are, I have little doubt You could lay it out quite clearly! :)

Yeah, I'll be happy to do the moving myself. It gives me a chance to compile it all. But if, in say, a weeks time this thread could be closed and removed, I would not be opposed to any action the Post Monster might take in that direction.

I'll be trying to post more of the reasons why I made the changes as well.

Moving the whole deal to...

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha3/newRules/brodiggansHouseOfHouseRules


It's really encouraging to see the discussion on houseruling.

4.0 has driven me ove here to Paizo. More specifically the tone of the message boards. It's much more pleasant here in the light.

I've been asked to guest DM in August. I've been playing DnD since '81, off and on. Unfortunately I haven't DM'd in a LONG time.

I've been thinking of a 3.5 Eberron setting (with some house rules) or trying the Pathfinder Alpha. (since the Beta won't be out 'til sometime in August)

Anyone have any words of wisdom? I'm worried about too much rust on the old cranium. (And no rust monsters to be found nearby.) It might be too much for me and the group to try out the Alpha. At least until the beta is out.


Brodiggan Gale wrote:
What else have you come up with? If we think that much alike I'm definitely interested in seeing any other ideas you've had.

As far as skills consolidation goes...

EDIT: Oops, I see you've moved the thread. I've moved my reply there as well.

Scarab Sages

Laithoron wrote:
Brodiggan Gale wrote:

Like I said to someone else, it's not really so much about redesigning the whole deal as using all of this to get a rock hard sense of where the Alpha3 stood when Beta comes out. So that I can appreciate the design intent behind any changes.

I'm also pretty sure I'll want to roll in some house rules for Beta, just because I can't help but meddle, and this is good practice.

I too am a big fan of house-rules and have several that I've considered based off of the Alpha material we've seen thus far.

However, once the PfRPG beta arrives, I personally want to try and not use any house rules as much as I possibly can (Will save DC 60).

Why?

Simply put, the value of the playtesting feedback that we provide will be be tainted if we don't use the rules-as-written during the testing phase. If Jason needs for us to give him feedback on how the barbarian class that he wrote works, saying, "Oh I didn't like how that looked so I did this instead," doesn't necessarily help him in the way he has asked. (Although that's still better than giving feedback without noting that You've changed things. ;)

** spoiler omitted **

that is why i am running 2 games, one PBP with all my medding and 2 live games with the beta as is to help playtest it, only if something is broken will i house rule it then report it on here.


Steven Hume wrote:


what lvl were these guys? +27 to CMB? i never had a problem with locking a foe down in my games, but i use opposed roles so the numbers would be diff then yours

Multiclass character

4th lvl Monk 5th lvl Wizard.
Size +0
Base attack +5
Str 16 +3
Improved Grapple +4
Grapple Bonus +12 Total

CMB 15+12 = +27

Make a CMB check to maintain the grapple D20+27, possible 47 or 3.5 Rules make opposed grapple check D20+12! possible 32.

The wizard also likes to cast Bulls strength +4 Enhancement bonus to Str, Enlarge person +2 Str (Size bonus) and uses the spell Balors Nimbus!

Making the grapple bonus +18 or CMB +33.

Does this enlighten you?


Quote:

CMB 15+12 = +27

Make a CMB check to maintain the grapple D20+27, possible 47 or 3.5 Rules make opposed grapple check D20+12! possible 32.

The 15 + CMB thing is for the opposed roll. It's a static number - you don't add 1d20 to it. Your PC's CMB would be 1d20+12, not 1d20+15+12.


WalkerInShadows wrote:
Quote:

CMB 15+12 = +27

Make a CMB check to maintain the grapple D20+27, possible 47 or 3.5 Rules make opposed grapple check D20+12! possible 32.

The 15 + CMB thing is for the opposed roll. It's a static number - you don't add 1d20 to it. Your PC's CMB would be 1d20+12, not 1d20+15+12.

Indeed

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