Having just downloaded my Scarwall PDF today, I can't help thinking that the image of the being in red on page 66, as well as the overall description of the deity's religion, was heavily influenced by the Hellraiser mythos. It's all quite disturbing...but in a good way. ;)
This is exactly what I thought.
Honestly, the image of Zon-Kuthon was much more distressing than that of Lamashtu.I've not read the article yet, but I'm thinking this adventure is going to be a blast to run. The Zon-Kuthon cultists are going to be great to run now with all of the charming background material on for their faith.
Creative Director
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Yup; Zon-Kuthon was very heavilly influenced by Clive Barker's writings (Hellraiser in particular), but also a bit by Jeff Long's writings (The Descente in particular). He's certainly one of the grislier looking gods in our world. Urgathoa's probably the 2nd most grisly, but that's just because so far we haven't really gone too crazy and given her a big belly full of rotten...
Yup; Zon-Kuthon was very heavilly influenced by Clive Barker's writings (Hellraiser in particular), but also a bit by Jeff Long's writings (The Descente in particular). He's certainly one of the grislier looking gods in our world. Urgathoa's probably the 2nd most grisly, but that's just because so far we haven't really gone too crazy and given her a big belly full of rotten...
hmm, I finished your ellipses in my noggin' and nothing that I put in their place was very nice.
I for one am glad to see the influence of Clive Barker. I love his novels. His short stories even more. I've seen you talk about Jeff Long before on the chat. I'm going to have to pick him up if he helped influence Zon-Kuthon.
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Creative Director
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hmm, I finished your ellipses in my noggin' and nothing that I put in their place was very nice.
I for one am glad to see the influence of Clive Barker. I love his novels. His short stories even more. I've seen you talk about Jeff Long before on the chat. I'm going to have to pick him up if he helped influence Zon-Kuthon.
Jeff Long's a really great writer. The first chapter of "The Descent" is among the scariest things I've read. It (and the sequel, "Deeper") are basically a "real world" underdark story, in which the caves below are inhabited by some pretty crazy and violent critters. Good stuff!
Yup; Zon-Kuthon was very heavilly influenced by Clive Barker's writings (Hellraiser in particular), but also a bit by Jeff Long's writings (The Descente in particular). He's certainly one of the grislier looking gods in our world. Urgathoa's probably the 2nd most grisly, but that's just because so far we haven't really gone too crazy and given her a big belly full of rotten...
Zon-Kuthon's article is sick...and awesome! I would love to see Clive Barker's take on a D&D campaign setting. The man is like a walking Monster Manual.
Dude! There was a total, "This is the sickest thing we've ever ordered" moment when we got this piece in, and a little bit of "Can we really run this?" Obviously the answers to those statements were yes and yes--especially after the opener to the Lamashtu article. Zon-Kuthon: once again proving that Pathfinder is for big kids. Sean also did a fantastic job capturing the alien weirdness and semi-sympathetic history of this menace. Oh, and if you think this illo is dark, wait till you see how he looks in Gods & Magic!
I would love to see Clive Barker's take on a D&D campaign setting.
Yeah, you're not kidding!
My homebrew campaign has seen a LOT of Clive Barker influence; ideas from nearly all of his works have shown up at one time or another.
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You guys did an awesome job. I love ZK's history. This is by far the most evocative pantheon I've ever found in a setting. This deity's followers are some messed up individuals. I can't wait to unleash some of these sickos on my players! (Of course...they could very well still be wearing leashes when I do...wierd.)
I need to convince all of my online players to buy the Chronicles "Guides" so they can really get a sense of how cool this world is!
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Hey for anyone that's interested, there's a Cenobite-y monster template in Tome of Horrors 3 called the N'Gathau.
GV, I just purchased ToH3 based on this recommendation (and on the other "Tome" volumes' reputation). I managed to get the full descriptions of some of the creatures from the Scarwall adventure, but I can't find the creature you're talking about. What page is it on?
The N'Gathau are in the Tome of Horrors 2.
Yay. More apostrophes.
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...Eh, really really sorry, but it was actually the Tome of Horrors 2. Definitely, really sorry about that. It's been awhile since I looked through those.
No worries. I already had ToH2, but forgot about the entry in the back. ToH3 is great, too. I just read the section in ToH2 on the N'Gathau. It definitely seems like there could be a connection between the two. The power Zon-Kuthon contacted that changed him into what he is now may be connected to The Twelve as described in the N'Gathau. I think it's entirely possible that ZK could have stumbled into the Plane of Agony and met with something even more powerful than the Quorum.
The pain I said was old and irregular
The pain you heard was big as a solid brick wall
Pain is formed by the limit of our domain
No we'll try to turn it round
To turn the pain to sound
Pain is party
There's a point in pain, in this falling of ours
I believe in suffering and playing like us
Now we'll try to turn it round
To turn the pain to sound
Pain is party
Just a party
I loved the article on Zon-Kuthon! Truly twisted stuff. The one complaint I have is that there is absolutely nothing Lawful about Zon-Kuthon. He is all about spreading pain, suffering, and destruction for their own sake. Neutral Evil if ever I heard it.
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Did anybody else get the idea to create a Pathfinder replacement for the infamous artifact The Eye of Vecna by statting out "The Eye of Zon-Kuthon"? Then again one might go from there to all of the other things he's apparently cut off or had removed over the years and that those pieces of divine flesh might still be out there, corrupting the innocent to the ways of pain... Hmmm.
I loved the article on Zon-Kuthon! Truly twisted stuff. The one complaint I have is that there is absolutely nothing Lawful about Zon-Kuthon. He is all about spreading pain, suffering, and destruction for their own sake. Neutral Evil if ever I heard it.
Take a look at the government!
but also a bit by Jeff Long's writings (The Descente in particular).
The Descent was an amazing book, and Deeper was a worthy sequel. I can't wait till he puts out the third book in the series.
I loved the article on Zon-Kuthon! Truly twisted stuff. The one complaint I have is that there is absolutely nothing Lawful about Zon-Kuthon. He is all about spreading pain, suffering, and destruction for their own sake. Neutral Evil if ever I heard it.Take a look at the government!
Nah the government is about consolidating power, money and prestige with no regard to the pain and suffering it inflicts. Zon-Kuthon doesn't seem to care about any of that stuff, just the pain and suffering. Sure, his followers can help the government through fear mongering, but it's less about the power and more about the fear mongering. I'd kind of have to agree with the Neutral Evil sentiment.
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Did anybody else get the idea to create a Pathfinder replacement for the infamous artifact The Eye of Vecna by statting out "The Eye of Zon-Kuthon"? Then again one might go from there to all of the other things he's apparently cut off or had removed over the years and that those pieces of divine flesh might still be out there, corrupting the innocent to the ways of pain... Hmmm.I bet Z-K has an artifact Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain too. Oh if only I were just making that magical item up...
Hey, as bad as the BoVD is, it ain't the *shudder* BoEF. Now let us never speak of that book again.
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I'll be honest here: I only know of the hellraiser movies via secondhand info (IE: the Robot Chicken Big Brother sketch with Freddy, Jason, Ghostface, ect), but I ID'd the image pretty quickly, and I have to say, I'm likeing Zon-Kuthon alot.
My only experience with Clive Barker was his 2001 video game Undying, but this Pathfinder article definitely makes me want to look up his stuff.
My only complaint about Zon-Kuthon is that, before the article, he seemed kind of funny. Like some kind of over-dramatic god of Death Metal (Blacker than the Blackest Black, Times Infinity!), And I was hoping to make metalocalypse jokes. Now, he's way, way to grim and nasty for lighthearted brutality humor. No longer is he the most Metal god ever; he's much, much worse.
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Despite the risk of opening a can of aligned worms, my interpretation is that, although most of ZK's followers are neutral evil, it is entirely plausible that the deity himself is Lawful Evil. It really depends on why he promotes the worship of pain and suffering, doesn't it?
My recollection is that the cenobites upheld a strict code of service to the Leviathan. They weren't entirely self-serving. If the cenobites can be lawful evil, then I think Zon-Kuthon can, too.
My only complaint about Zon-Kuthon is that, before the article, he seemed kind of funny. Like some kind of over-dramatic god of Death Metal (Blacker than the Blackest Black, Times Infinity!), And I was hoping to make metalocalypse jokes. Now, he's way, way to grim and nasty for lighthearted brutality humor. No longer is he the most Metal god ever; he's much, much worse.
Well, this is Pathfinder after all. Dark gods who are more funny than evil are more wizards or Disney's schtick. Pathfinder is about proper Evil. Evil that deserves the capital E.
Nah the government is about consolidating power, money and prestige with no regard to the pain and suffering it inflicts.Take a look at the government!
That's what they say...
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Well, he did enslave all of Nidal, and the government set up there ended up pretty rigid. I think that showcases some of Zon-Kuthon's lawful tendancies. He kept his promise to protect the people from the Age of Darkness, but enslaved them for all eternity.
On another note, I got to join up into a lawful neutral/lawful evil campaign as a cleric of Zon-Kuthon yesterday. Talk about a blast! I printed out Zon-Kuthon's picture from the PDF and took it along (no one in the new group had ever looked at any Pathfinder stuff, and I actually spent a good amount of time proselytizing) and without fail the response when I showed it to them was "Dude! That's effin' SICK!" or something similar. People were grabbing the picture and showing it to new arrivals. It was great. Man, I love Paizo.
I haven't gotten the issue yet, but I think the description on the Evil outsiders in 7 Days explains why Zon-Kuthon is LE. Pathfinder has divided the three evil outsiders this way:
Lawful Evil - corrupting the mind and soul
Neutral Evil - ending life, death, diseased, famine
Chaotic Evil - raw destructive entropy destroying the very fabric of existence itself
If Zon-Kuthon is listed as LE, then I suspect he's much more into corrupting people than actually destroying reality.
Personally, I would place Barker's Leviathan and Cenobites as Chaotic Evil. In the story itself, I think Barker makes some mention that Leviathan hated life because it represented a random, chaotic element it couldn't control. That may cause someone to place it as Lawful. But Barker got his metaphysics wrong. Life does not represent chaos, but extreme order, thus Life and its creation and maintenance represent Law. Entropy, which brings everything back to a uniform sameness, is Chaotic.
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Creative Director
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Arguing what an alignment means is as old as the game. I could certainly spend a half hour listing reasons why Zon-Kuthon is Lawful Evil, but I could probably do the same arguing him to be Neutral Evil. In the end, though, his lawful aspect pretty much does shine out in the fact that he's established a nation and said nation is pretty solid. And also, even though he's evil, he's still lawful enough to take his punishment when he knows he's stepped over the line. And honestly... bringing suffering to the world is pretty lawful too, since that erradicates all of the conflicting emotions that cause so many problems and so much discord. If the world was filled with the suffering, and if all that suffering was equally distributed, that'd probably make a pretty orderly place, eh? And dispassionate isn't really an earmark of no law... in fact, slavish devotion to law is kinda what makes for dispassion, since passion is illogical and a powerful outflow of emotion. Not very lawful, passion!
Anyway... I said I wouldn't get caught up in an alignment argument and then immediately did just that. Quitting while I'm ahead!
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My only complaint about Zon-Kuthon is that, before the article, he seemed kind of funny. Like some kind of over-dramatic god of Death Metal (Blacker than the Blackest Black, Times Infinity!), And I was hoping to make metalocalypse jokes. Now, he's way, way to grim and nasty for lighthearted brutality humor. No longer is he the most Metal god ever; he's much, much worse.Well, this is Pathfinder after all. Dark gods who are more funny than evil are more wizards or Disney's schtick. Pathfinder is about proper Evil. Evil that deserves the capital E.
Dude, have you ever watched metalocalypse? When I said funny, I didnt mean tame. I meant over-the-top brutality that somehow manages to be funny. Dethklok once kicked their therapist out the window from several stories up. He landed in the courtyard and got his arms eaten off by their yard wolves. Yes, they have yard wolves. As they watched, the band discussed the circle of life, then declared that they were hungry, and went off to get a snack.
They once mistakenly released hundreds of the world's most dangerous criminals in a concert accident. They considered this to be a "Happy Accident."
Zon-Kuthon, on the other hand, has lost all of the brutal humor that I intended to use. Now, he's way, way too...Evil, as you said.
Before the article I found ZK a little boring, a little humdrum. A LE god of torture? Yeah her name's Loviatar. But my opinion took a 180 after actually learning about him. Especially that part about what he did to his wolfspiritdaddy. That was sad.
With the literally hundreds of deities in the varied D&D and real-world pantheons I'm pretty sure you could find an analog to nearly every one of our deities (Abadar is like Helm, Iomedae is like Ezra, Nethys is like Lunitari, yada yada), and you're going to get that after 30-some years of gaming and a few thousand years of human history. Sean does an a-Freakin-mazing job giving our new deities their own personalities and we're very sensitive to retreading well walked grounds, so rest assured, you won't see much in the way of repeats are carbon copies in Golarion.
As for ZK's dad and sister, I don't know, kind of weird that he's got more family connections than any other deity mentioned so far... probably not a good idea to take a psychological evaluation of the author or editors fro, this. :P
He's nothing like Lowyatar, who was impregnated by the wind and bore nine sons - the nine diseases.
If we kept away from all divine concepts that have been done before, D&D could not touch the subject of religion with a lightyear-long pole. Especially things like gods of war or love could totally not be done, because they're so many of them.
Zon-Kuthon, on the other hand, has lost all of the brutal humor that I intended to use.
I guess you're just not sadistic enough ;-P
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Creative Director
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I know, it's not fair to ask someone to come up with a completely original god for D&D (though Lamashtu came pretty close). It's not something I consciously judge, but for all the years I've been playing, I'm a little (lot?) jaded.
Of course, the interesting thing there is that Lamashtu isn't actually an original god. She's from real world myth, down to and including her association with childbirth and her relationship with Pazuzu.
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Arguing what an alignment means is as old as the game. I could certainly spend a half hour listing reasons why Zon-Kuthon is Lawful Evil, but I could probably do the same arguing him to be Neutral Evil. In the end, though, his lawful aspect pretty much does shine out in the fact that he's established a nation and said nation is pretty solid. And also, even though he's evil, he's still lawful enough to take his punishment when he knows he's stepped over the line. And honestly... bringing suffering to the world is pretty lawful too, since that erradicates all of the conflicting emotions that cause so many problems and so much discord. If the world was filled with the suffering, and if all that suffering was equally distributed, that'd probably make a pretty orderly place, eh? And dispassionate isn't really an earmark of no law... in fact, slavish devotion to law is kinda what makes for dispassion, since passion is illogical and a powerful outflow of emotion. Not very lawful, passion!
Anyway... I said I wouldn't get caught up in an alignment argument and then immediately did just that. Quitting while I'm ahead!
Just my 2 cents worth, but...
I tend to agree and I will point at the example of Loviatar from FR and Chain devils. Both are LE and they both are all about pain and suffering.
Pinhead and crew from hellraiser are also very LE as they expect returns for what ever favor they do. I see them more based on the Elric cycle type Law. Unwavering and totally inflexable in ther draconic and sinster ways of doing things.
As I am still waiting for my PFAP to ship I can't really comment on the look of Zon-Kuthon, though I can say it sounds awesome so far. I think I am going to play a Chelish fighter who worships him for Pathfinder Society.
Of course, the interesting thing there is that Lamashtu isn't actually an original god. She's from real world myth, down to and including her association with childbirth and her relationship with Pazuzu.
I thought the name sounded familiar! I'll be interested to see her write-up in Gods & Magic, especially if the relationship with Pazuzu is still there; he's my favorite demon prince.
Until then, however, Zon-Kuthon is now officially my favorite Golarion god.
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Creative Director
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Of course, the interesting thing there is that Lamashtu isn't actually an original god. She's from real world myth, down to and including her association with childbirth and her relationship with Pazuzu.
I thought the name sounded familiar! I'll be interested to see her write-up in Gods & Magic, especially if the relationship with Pazuzu is still there; he's my favorite demon prince.
Until then, however, Zon-Kuthon is now officially my favorite Golarion god.
She was actually the first deity to get a writeup, actually; her entry appears in Pathfinder #5. And yes, her relationship with Pazuzu remains.
She was actually the first deity to get a writeup, actually; her entry appears in Pathfinder #5. And yes, her relationship with Pazuzu remains.
Ah, see, I missed the first adventure path. I'm running my group through Crimson Throne now, and nudging the other DM of my group to buy and run the Runelords AP, so I can play.
I'll have to percolate some interesting ideas for some Pazuzu/Lamashtu meddling once we've started the Beta testing...
You'll see him in the Gods and Magic book, fo sho.
But thanks for the ZK kudos, he was a ... delight (?) to write.
You'll see him in the Gods and Magic book, fo sho.
But thanks for the ZK kudos, he was a ... delight (?) to write.
TMI! :)
By the way I wanted to add that I don't think BDSM, self-mutilation, or similar things are inherently evil (consenting adults may do what they want to themselves or each other), but Zon-Kuthon's practices ARE evil because they act out on unwilling targets.
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Creative Director
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Actually, she was the second. Desna was first in Pathfinder #2. But you really need to get around and do Asmodeus, my personal favorite.
She was actually the first deity to get a writeup, actually; her entry appears in Pathfinder #5.
Good point.
On both of them.
Desna was first, and we'll be getting around to Asmodeus, I suspect, before the end of 2009.