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An issue came up in my group's playtesting, and this is my proposal to fix it. As a spellcaster rises in ability, the challenges also increase. The way monsters are built, they begin to have excessive numbers of hit dice in comparison to their CR, which in turn enhance their saving throws. This makes it more and more difficult for even a high-level dedicated spellcaster to affect targets with their top spells, to say nothing of spells a few levels lower. I propose giving the dedicated spellcasting classes a scaling ability similar to those introduced for other classes.
Example: For every 5 levels a PC has in a spellcasting class, he gets +1 to the DCs of spells he casts from that class's spell list.
I might wish to divide this ability by divine and arcane magic, so that some multiclass characters can also benefit.
Example: For every 5 levels a PC has in any arcane spellcasting classes, add +1 to the DCs of his arcane spells.
For every 5 levels a PC has in any divine spellcasting classes, add +1 to the DCs of his divine spells.
I could suggest this be written up as a feat, but it is more powerful than most feats; therefore, I decided to write it up as a new magic option.
An issue came up in my group's playtesting, and this is my proposal to fix it. As a spellcaster rises in ability, the challenges also increase. The way monsters are built, they begin to have excessive numbers of hit dice in comparison to their CR, which in turn enhance their saving throws. This makes it more and more difficult for even a high-level dedicated spellcaster to affect targets with their top spells, to say nothing of spells a few levels lower. I propose giving the dedicated spellcasting classes a scaling ability similar to those introduced for other classes.
Example: For every 5 levels a PC has in a spellcasting class, he gets +1 to the DCs of spells he casts from that class's spell list.
I might wish to divide this ability by divine and arcane magic, so that some multiclass characters can also benefit.
Example: For every 5 levels a PC has in any arcane spellcasting classes, add +1 to the DCs of his arcane spells.
For every 5 levels a PC has in any divine spellcasting classes, add +1 to the DCs of his divine spells.I could suggest this be written up as a feat, but it is more powerful than most feats; therefore, I decided to write it up as a new magic option.
It sounds reasonable and not overpowering. You might ask your players how they feel about the increase in DC when the bad guy starts casting spells like Petrification and Slay Living, though.
I was just thinking about increasing the DCs for spells in some fashion, also. I was kind of thinking of doubling the Spell Level modifier. So, 1st level spell DCs would be 12 + Int/Wis/Cha Mod, 2nd level - 14 + Int/Wis/Cha Mod, etc. The problem is, then 9th level spells would have DCs of 28 + Mod...yowch!
The only thing thing about rules like these is that many view spellcasters to be already overwhelmingly more powerful than non-spellcasters. If you're using any kind of bonus to Spell DC house rule, you might consider weakening save-or-die spells.
Spellcasters do not need a bump.
An issue came up in my group's playtesting, and this is my proposal to fix it. As a spellcaster rises in ability, the challenges also increase. The way monsters are built, they begin to have excessive numbers of hit dice in comparison to their CR, which in turn enhance their saving throws. This makes it more and more difficult for even a high-level dedicated spellcaster to affect targets with their top spells, to say nothing of spells a few levels lower. I propose giving the dedicated spellcasting classes a scaling ability similar to those introduced for other classes.
Example: For every 5 levels a PC has in a spellcasting class, he gets +1 to the DCs of spells he casts from that class's spell list.
I might wish to divide this ability by divine and arcane magic, so that some multiclass characters can also benefit.
Example: For every 5 levels a PC has in any arcane spellcasting classes, add +1 to the DCs of his arcane spells.
For every 5 levels a PC has in any divine spellcasting classes, add +1 to the DCs of his divine spells.I could suggest this be written up as a feat, but it is more powerful than most feats; therefore, I decided to write it up as a new magic option.
My apologies, but if dedicated casters are having a hard time keeping up with saves, then they're either facing the wrong CR, or they're doing something wrong.
I hit the SRD and intentionally went looking for creatures that had abnormally high HD to CR, then went back and did the math on saves, here's what I've got...
Dire Tiger, 16 HD, CR 8 (definitely one of the worst HD:CR ratios I could find)
F: +13, R:+11, W: +11, Touch AC: 11
Admittedly, this one stings, but an 8th level caster should have, At least a 20, possibly a 24 in their casting stat assuming a 16 to start with, possibly a +2 Racial, +2 from levelling, and a +2 or +4 casting stat item. So lets say +5 to +7 to the DC from their casting stat, 3rd/4th level spells gives us another +3 to +4. So base, without any feats, you're looking at DC 18 to 21. Spell focus might bump it up a bit more, but oh well. If that were the whole picture, then yeah, it would sting a bit, but now take a look at that touch AC.
Divine casters should probably be buffing up and going all CoDzilla on the poor tiger and Arcane casters have access to a whole lot of very nasty touch attack spells that are going to completely ignore this beasties high save.
And that same pattern holds true for almost all the High HD/Low CR creatures. The majority of creatures have close to their CR in HD, it's mainly just certain types that get a bit out of hand (Vermin, Animals, Dire Animals, and so on) and those same types have severe weaknesses built in as well.
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Brodiggan, I am glad you took the time to run some numbers through this suggestion. However, the creature you chose as an example is only a midlevel challenge; a CR 8. I do not think it properly represents high-level threats. Most higher threats are outsiders, dragons, undead, and aberrations. It does begin to show the exact issue I am addressing, however: a spellcaster who is focused and dedicated to magic for many levels often runs into creatures who shrug off his spells on a roll of 6 or higher.
On a separate note, it is good that spellcasters have a lot of touch spells that give no save to overcome some of those challenges. What I am looking for is a way to keep area and target spells useful against high CR encounters.
I realize too that this is not a problem at every table, which is why I suggest it as an option for those that have this as an issue.
Brodiggan, I am glad you took the time to run some numbers through this suggestion. However, the creature you chose as an example is only a midlevel challenge; a CR 8. I do not think it properly represents high-level threats. Most higher threats are outsiders, dragons, undead, and aberrations. It does begin to show the exact issue I am addressing, however: a spellcaster who is focused and dedicated to magic for many levels often runs into creatures who shrug off his spells on a roll of 6 or higher.
Outsiders typically have fewer HD than CR, or at least an even number of HD, look at Pit Fiend or Balor (18/20 HD, both CR 20s)
Aberrations tend to follow close to the same pattern, generally falling somewhere within -2 to +2 HD vs. CR. There are a few specific exceptions to that, once an aberration is huge or larger the designers tend have added a lot of bonus hd to make them "feel" huge.
Undead basically fall into two groups, mindless undead may sometimes have a load of extra HD, but again, it's because like Vermin and Animals, they come with significant weaknesses built in. Intelligent Undead tend to either be within a HD or two of their CR, or to be templates meant to be applied to NPCs, in which case they're pretty much guaranteed to have fewer HD than CR.
The only high level creature type I can think of that gets massive bonus HD without a specific weakness to balance it out is Dragons, and Dragons are specifically designed not to be a fair fight unless you go into it entirely prepared.
On a separate note, it is good that spellcasters have a lot of touch spells that give no save to overcome some of those challenges. What I am looking for is a way to keep area and target spells useful against high CR encounters.
I realize too that this is not a problem at every table, which is why I suggest it as an option for those that have this as an issue.
Area/Save spells should be useful in a reasonable proportion of fights at each CR, and that proportion should be roughly constant across level. But they should not be a solution to every problem. There is a reason that casters have easy access to Ray spells, Touch spells, and sometimes may have to depend on non-casters to back them up.
Unless we're talking epic levels, AOE spells aren't exactly useless either....
Lets go all the way up to CR 20, Balor
Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +19
At that level, a primary caster should have +6 to their casting stat from items, +5 from leveling, +3/+5 inherent (depending on how long they've been 20 and if they have Wish/Miracle, or if they spent the cash to buy a Manual), Possibly +2 Racial, so with a starting stat of 16, you've got a total of 30-34, giving them a modifier of +10 to +12 to the DC of spells. Assuming they also have Spell Focus/Greater Focus, that gives us a final DC on level 8/9 spells of DC 30 to DC 33. Meaning an even level encounter against one of the biggest, beefiest Outsiders you can throw at them still has them failing saves 50-65% of the time.
I don't think spells landing two thirds of the time (65%) is exactly a terrible place to be when facing something like a Balor.
If they instead used a touch spell, they'd hit on a 6 or higher from BAB alone. If they have any Dex at all and even a cheap +stat item (+4 at that level) they almost can't miss touch attacks.
[ Edited for reduced cantankerousness ]
Sorry, that last message comes off as a little argumentative. My apologies.
I just worry that upping the DC of all spells is going to lead to some very, very bad results with non-damaging effects.
I'd just suggest upping the damage, if you must, not that many foes have Evasion, and half damage is still damage.
BlaineTog, I would like to hear the reasons behind your opinion. A one-line post is not very informative.
Ok then: high-level spellcasters are far and away the most powerful characters in the game. A free bump to spell save-DCs is only going to exacerbate the problem. Add to this that they get a "level-based" save-DC increase already: the spell level.
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Sorry for the late reply. Brodiggan, thanks again for running numbers. I can see that a better solution for my group would be to increase the damage of area spells. Probably not by much, since area spells are most effective against groups and groups of monsters are probably going to have lower saves (and hit points) individually.