Optional rule: Scaling Spell DCs


Combat & Magic

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Mon wrote:


Anyway, I think I am going to change my spell DC house rules to the following on a trial basis and see how it plays out:

* Thereal thom's DC formula (10 + (M+L)/2 + Ability Mod) to drag up the bottom DCs
* Dual-stat casters to push down the maximum DCs
* Heighten spell is something any caster can do, not a feat

What do you think of that combination? Any problems I haven't forseen?

Looks good to me. I'll be interested to hear how it plays out.


To the OP (& the rest here) thank you! I thought I was the only one with issues when it came to spellcasting under the 3e/3.5 system; although my issue has always been that it didn't seem to allow for more subtle spellcasting i.e.: a spellcaster who defeated foes through spells such as Charm or Hold or Ray of Enfeeblement as opposed to "blowing them to smitherines", since spell strength was & is based so much on the STAT modifiers as opposed to the spellcaster.

I'm still looking for a compromise on how I can make it simple & still keep it based on the Spellcaster though. At one point I thought I had the solution by making spell DCs: 10 + spell level + half caster level, rounded down + modifiers + misc modifiers. Unfortunately that system worked OK at lower levels but once you got to 7 & up the numbers just got outragious & too much in the spellcasters favor.

I'll give some of your suggestions a whirl. Paizo people, if any of you read this thread, you've already taken on the grappling problem; please take on the issue with the DCs of spells.


Mon wrote:

The system I use combines scaling spell DC with the concept of reserve feats from Complete Mage. Namely, encouraging casters to keep their most powerful spells in reserve for a time when they are truly needed to try and counter this: "go nova, then rest when my top 2 spell levels are depleted". AKA the 5-minute adventuring day.

Instead of Complete Mage's feats that are cooler if you keep your spells in reserve, I just apply the same principle to spell DCs.

The DC is...

10 + ability modifier + the level of the highest level spell currently available to cast (from the same class).

Thus, a 14th level wizard (7th level spells) with 20 Int (+5) has a DC of 22 for ALL of his spells (10 + 5 + 7); as long as he has at least one 7th level spell left to cast. If he uses all his 7th levels and has only 6th level spells remaining the DC drops to 21 (10 + 5 + 6), and so on.

Thus...
(1) Spell DCs scale with level
(2) Casters have some incentive not to go "nova" in the first encounter.

It's been a long time since I've posted here, so I only saw this now, sorry.

I liked this rule, good idea for an optional rule, or maybe turn this into a feat.


While the change to DC 10 +1/2 caster level + relevant ability score may fix part of the problem the real problem comes from multiclassing.

It's not that the spell DC's are too low, it's that everyones saves are too high. A lot of characters multiclass a LOT so in essence they are recieving Lightning Reflexes, Iron Will, or Great Fortitude several times throughout their characters career!

A Human 2nd level fighter/2nd level Paladin/2nd level Samurai/2nd level Divine Disciple (Actual character done by a player) has a 12 Fortitude! He has a 0 Reflex and Will of course but you can see the problem.

This is why in my games I have the optional rule "Fractional Save and Attack Bonuses" in Unearthed Arcana as a mandatory rule. The same 8th level character described above wouldn't have a 12-0-0, but instead a much more balanced 6-2-2.

In the end the player has lost six from his good save but has gained two to each of his worst, a tradeoff many players are willing to make.

When you add in possible BAB increases as well the players don't mind the rule, in fact I started using this rule after a player of mine who multiclasses a lot begged me to allow it so his saves would be better!

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

How about this?

Spell Save DC: 10 + 1/2 Caster Level + Ability modifier.

AND

Change Spell Focus to:

Choose a school of magic, such as evocation. When you cast spells of the selected school, you add the level of the spell to the Save DC of the spell.

That way, spellcasters have a real reason to take spell focus, and it scales with the level of the spell.

Assuming a 17 base stat, and all 5 level improvements making it 22, the base save at 20th level would be 26 (or 35 for 9th level spells), and the good saving throw vs the spell would be +18 (Max Con/Dex/Wis for Fort/Ref/Will) and a poor saving throw would be +6 (plus any ability bonuses, resistance, etc.)


This is something that I've been thinking about off & on. How about taking a page from the old NeverwinterNights game? If I remember correct it had the standard spells DCs, but it also included later on via expasions a +1 to spells DCs based on every 5 ranks the character had in either Concentration or Spellcraft. Could not the same thing be implemented in the Pathfinder system? I think it'd work for single & multiclass characters.

Potential advantages:

Spells DCs would go up & keep on an even level/scale with saving throws.

Spellcasters wouldn't be wasting any ranks since they'd be adding to a skill they use normally anyway.

No feats/abilities would be rendered useless. I.E.: Heighten Spell, Spell Focus & a few others I can't think of are still useful.

Possibilities for abuse of this system: none that I can think of right now.

Potential Disadvantages:

One more thing to remember/add-on. Spells now being: 10 + Spell level + Appropriate Modifier + Misc Modfiers + every 5 ranks in Spellcraft.

Better for single-class Spellcasters.

"Why every 5 ranks?" Anything lower brings the potential for abuse of this system & spells DCs start exceeding the saves of potential victims. This is especially true for those "powerhouses of spellcasting" such as Demons, Dragons & various other beings Who already have dangerously high spells DCs as is.

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