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If there was one thing that irritated me most about 3.5, it was prepared spells. Making NPCs, or even managing a single high-level character turned out to be a huge organizational task.
Now, I understand that changing the magic system would not be backwards compatible at all, and I don't advocate doing so. But at some point might we include an (optional) alternative system that would be relatively balanced with the existing system?
My group has been experimenting with a Magic Point system. Rather than try and make something original, we tried to parallel the Hit Point system as closely as possible. This is the result:
Characters with a spells per day table roll the following mana die type, adding their relevant ability score, at each level. As with Hit Dice, the first level is automatically the maximum.
d6 Paladin, Ranger
d8 Bard
d10 Cleric, Druid, Wizard
d12 Sorcerer
All casters are subject to their class's Spellbook/Spells Known restrictions.
Casting a spell costs Spell level times 3 in MP, except where noted for Cleric Domains and Specialist Wizards. Cantrips, Orisons, and all zero level spells are now At-will Spell-Like Abilities.
Cleric Domains and specialist School spells cost to cast SL* 2 in MP. Prohibited schools for specialist wizards cost SL * 4 in MP.
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
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Now, I don't consider this an authentic suggestion for inclusion in the Pathfinder RPG, but it is what I will be using during my playtests, so I'd love any feedback from you all.
EDIT:
There are a few anomalous effects: in general, casters can cast fewer spells over all, and they can often cast more of their highest level spells than the Vancian system would allow. However, there isn't any way to mitigate this beyond tracking MP per spell level, which I think is too much paperwork. So I tried to strike a balance: more higher level spells possible, trusting the players will save some of these MP for lower level effects...
If there was one thing that irritated me most about 3.5, it was prepared spells. Making NPCs, or even managing a single high-level character turned out to be a huge organizational task.
Now, I understand that changing the magic system would not be backwards compatible at all, and I don't advocate doing so. But at some point might we include an (optional) alternative system that would be relatively balanced with the existing system?
My group has been experimenting with a Magic Point system. Rather than try and make something original, we tried to parallel the Hit Point system as closely as possible. This is the result:
Characters with a spells per day table roll the following mana die type, adding their relevant ability score, at each level. As with Hit Dice, the first level is automatically the maximum.
d6 Paladin, Ranger
d8 Bard
d10 Cleric, Druid, Wizard
d12 SorcererAll casters are subject to their class's Spellbook/Spells Known restrictions.
Casting a spell costs Spell level times 3 in MP, except where noted for Cleric Domains and Specialist Wizards. Cantrips, Orisons, and all zero level spells are now At-will Spell-Like Abilities.
Cleric Domains and specialist School spells cost to cast SL* 2 in MP. Prohibited schools for specialist wizards cost SL * 4 in MP.
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
-------
Now, I don't consider this an authentic suggestion for inclusion in the Pathfinder RPG, but it is what I will be using during my playtests, so I'd love any feedback from you all.
EDIT:
There are a few anomalous effects: in general, casters can cast fewer spells over all, and they can often cast more of their highest level spells than the Vancian system would allow. However, there isn't any way to mitigate this beyond tracking MP per spell level, which I think is too much paperwork. So I tried to strike a balance: more higher level spells possible, trusting...
Does a Cleric know all the spells on the Cleric list? Being able to choose from 40+ spells to cast at first level seems too powerful. Does a class know there normal spells per day but as spells known?
Characters with a spells per day table roll the following mana die type, adding their relevant ability score, at each level. As with Hit Dice, the first level is automatically the maximum.
d6 Paladin, Ranger
d8 Bard
d10 Cleric, Druid, Wizard
d12 SorcererAll casters are subject to their class's Spellbook/Spells Known restrictions.
Casting a spell costs Spell level times 3 in MP, except where noted for Cleric Domains and Specialist Wizards. Cantrips, Orisons, and all zero level spells are now At-will Spell-Like Abilities.
Cleric Domains and specialist School spells cost to cast SL* 2 in MP. Prohibited schools for specialist wizards cost SL * 4 in MP.
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
I tinkered with a spell point system back in 2E AD&D for pretty much the same reasons you have. I had a slightly different magic point system, but not much. I used a variable cost for the spells though (i.e. 1d3 for a first level spell etc.). And just to be evil, spell point cost overruns came out of their hit points. Gave those Wizard types a chance to sacrifice for the party just like those front rank fighters did :D
I hadn't considered limiting the divine spell lists. It seems to me that using Spells per Day as Spells known would be too restrictive, but a good start. Sorcerers shouldn't know more spells than clerics.
One could maybe double that list, or just create new spell lists for those Classes... but I sort of like the new breath it gives to the utility spells. Remember that all casters now cast fewer spells, so busting out those utility spells at the right time is a trade off for fewer spells in total.
R_Chance: As for rolling the MP cost, that is a solution I had not considered. I'm really curious, care to spill the details?
I'd say if we can devise a system that's faithful enough to the existing balance, it might deserve an honorable mention somewhere in the Core Rules. I think a lot of people are driven away from spellcasters because of the paperwork involved... some people (including me) find that appealing (and very wizardly), but many would be thankful for it.
Well, I know this is being a complete ass, but...
It's called 4th Edition D&D, dude.
Well, I know this is being a complete ass, but...
It's called 4th Edition D&D, dude.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But not really. I mean, I'm not playing 4e, I'm playing 3e with this house rule. Why? Going 4e would ruin all my characters, and screw with my cosmology in a fundamental way. This option doesn't.
I'll agree, it shouldn't be a central, mandatory change.
I tinkered with a spell point system back in 2E AD&D for pretty much the same reasons you have. I had a slightly different magic point system, but not much. I used a variable cost for the spells though (i.e. 1d3 for a first level spell etc.). And just to be evil, spell point cost overruns came out of their hit points. Gave those Wizard types a chance to sacrifice for the party just like those front rank fighters did :D
A little risk might dissuade people from casting too many of their highest-level spells— I think this might be the perfect solution.
Furthermore, it nicely parallels damage dice vs. HP, much more than multiples of spell level does. Atmosphere is important to me, I'd much rather have a backwards system if it feels appropriate.
Here's what I'm going to try:
MP Cost=
Specialist School, Domains: 1d4 per spell level.
Standard: 1d6 per spell level.
Prohibited Schools: 1d8 per spell level.
The average of these rolls are close to the factored costs I was using before, but the risk of a series of unlucky rolls sucking up all your mana is encouragement to stay in the lower levels.
----
Also, it occurs to me that the spell point system in Unearthed Arcana, although it has it's drawbacks, is Open Content and maybe could be included in the Pathfinder RPG.
Cool, I'd like to see specific playtest feedback if you're using this in any games using the Alpha/Beta test rules. (Do you let Spell Points apply to meta-magicking School/Domain SLAs?)
I'm playing a PbP using the Unearthed Arcana Spell Points with PRPG,
but it's just starting, so I can't really say yet. Spell Points really seem like they come into their own once you have a bunch to toss around, and you have the options of spells with scaling damage (fireballs) or picking up Metamagic Feats (which seem much nicer with spellpoints.)
We're just using the Unearthed Arcana rules, but I might talk to the DM about using that "Memorized Spell Points" idea I mentioned in that other thread... I think that would have the most chances of making it into any Pathfinder product, since it keeps the prepared/spontaneous caster dichotomy, which IS pretty central to D&D.
I tinkered with a spell point system back in 2E AD&D for pretty much the same reasons you have. I had a slightly different magic point system, but not much. I used a variable cost for the spells though (i.e. 1d3 for a first level spell etc.). And just to be evil, spell point cost overruns came out of their hit points. Gave those Wizard types a chance to sacrifice for the party just like those front rank fighters did :DCharacters with a spells per day table roll the following mana die type, adding their relevant ability score, at each level. As with Hit Dice, the first level is automatically the maximum.
d6 Paladin, Ranger
d8 Bard
d10 Cleric, Druid, Wizard
d12 SorcererAll casters are subject to their class's Spellbook/Spells Known restrictions.
Casting a spell costs Spell level times 3 in MP, except where noted for Cleric Domains and Specialist Wizards. Cantrips, Orisons, and all zero level spells are now At-will Spell-Like Abilities.
Cleric Domains and specialist School spells cost to cast SL* 2 in MP. Prohibited schools for specialist wizards cost SL * 4 in MP.
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
One of my fellow posters (Uriel) and I switched over to the Spell Point option in the Unearthed Arcana (pp. 153-155) about 4 years ago and played it out until only just before the demise of Wotc's 3.5 line. It is fun, I will admit that but it does have flaws. Eg: The Wizard is just the best caster, if he/she can cycle through a mass of spells (each day) that a Sorcerer cannot and dump spell points into them at will....well you end-up with an 11th level Wizard who has one 6th level spell (pick one at the beginning of the day) who then dumps every SP they have into it, every round, until they run out of SP? A big detractor from the standard concept of a Wiz, though I did solve this with a SP/spell level restriction grid just before dumping the SP idea altogether. I will have to ask Uriel but he also had a solution based off of the Warmage and Duskblade alterations he made. In the end, a SP system is doable but it, like 3.5, has to have some serious modifications.
(Do you let Spell Points apply to meta-magicking School/Domain SLAs?)
I have seen many complaints about Domain/Spec SLAs, so I am anticipating a change in the Beta release. That aside, I would leave them the way they are for the playtest and simply use MP for the rest of the spells (although I have my own questions about Arcane Schools).
The cost/benefit analysis I did on metamagic feats a long time ago led me to feel they are overpriced. Especially Maximize spell, which is for some reason regarded as powerful (at least in my circles). I'm comfortable letting players pay a premium in MP to get the effect they already spent a feat on— in most cases it's not worth a spell of the equivalent level/same cost.
...well you end-up with an 11th level Wizard who has one 6th level spell (pick one at the beginning of the day) who then dumps every SP they have into it, every round, until they run out of SP? A big detractor from the standard concept of a Wiz, though I did solve this with a SP/spell level restriction grid just...
This is my number one concern: that I've had to increase the number of "highest level" spells available so that casters can have any number of spells at all. I'm hopeful that randomizing the MP cost with spell dice is the key to making players more wary about tossing out highest-level spells in favor of more moderate measures.
If it's not enough, I'll try raising the random element... maybe by upping the dice type, or reducing the number of spell dice. I hope it works, and thanks for the warning!
This is my number one concern: that I've had to increase the number of "highest level" spells available so that casters can have any number of spells at all. I'm hopeful that randomizing the MP cost with spell dice is the key to making players more wary about tossing out highest-level spells in favor of more moderate measures.
If it's not enough, I'll try raising the random element... maybe by upping the dice type, or reducing the number of spell dice. I hope it works, and thanks for the warning!
Glad to help. The trick with capping the SP system from Unearthed Arcana it to calculate how many spells a caster knows at a given level vs. the cost of SP it would require to cast those known spells at that level. Tally this and make that total the cap for spells at that level. Perhaps you could house rule a system similar to HARP's point system which is very non-3.5 but viable as it uses points to cast, and manages to keep the lower level spells relevant by making them "boostable" with points + all meta is simply point additions..etc.
The F
Glad to help. The trick with capping the SP system from Unearthed Arcana it to calculate how many spells a caster knows at a given level vs. the cost of SP it would require to cast those known spells at that level. Tally this and make that total the cap for spells at that level. Perhaps you could house rule a system similar to HARP's point system which is very non-3.5 but viable as it uses points to cast, and manages to keep the lower level spells relevant by making them "boostable" with points + all meta is simply point additions..etc.The F
So you had this:
- Prep Casters use Spells Per Day to select their available spells for the day.
- Magic points and Magic costs as per Unearthed Arcana Spell points.
- Of those MP, the caster may not spend more on a particular level than would be available for that level in spells per day.
This seems to me like it would be very balanced, but it is still very heavy on preparation time, because of the first item. This is my major problem with the U.A. system, it still requires me to pick my spells at the beginning of the day, even though it's less work than Vance.
I'm going to try letting people access their whole list, with only Spellbook and Spells Known restrictions. This might make Divine Casters way too powerful...
Here is the current text of the rule I am going to test. Again, feedback and even negative projections are welcome:
Spell lists and Preparation
Classes that prepare spells need not prepare specific spells in advance, but rather have access to any spell on their class's spell list at all times. Maximum spell level is still determined by caster level, or caster level and bonus spells for those progressions that allow "0" spells per day
Wizards are still restricted to spells studied in their spellbooks. They must pay the price for spell book materials as a "learning cost" when acquiring new spells from a scroll or other source, but they no longer require the spellbook's presence to prepare spells.
Sorcerers, Bards, and other spontaneous casters must still select Spells Known.
Mana Dice
Characters with a "Spells per day" table roll a Mana Die at each level to determine their total Mana Points. The key ability bonus for their class's magic is added to this roll, and first level characters automatically receive the maximum number of Mana Points.
Classes that do not begin with spells at first level roll mana dice only once they have gained access to spell casting abilities. Multiclass characters with 2 or more spellcasting classes must maintain separate MP totals for each such class.
Mana Die Type:
- d6 — Paladin (Wis), Ranger (Wis)
- d8 — Bard (Cha)
- d10 — Cleric (Wis), Druid (Wis), Wizard (Int)
- d12 — Sorcerer (Cha)
Casting Spells
When casting a spell, the player rolls a number of Spell Dice equal to the spell's level to determine the amount of mana points lost. Cantrips, Orisons, and all zero level spells are now At-will Spell-Like Abilities.
Spell Die type:
- d6 — Standard
- d4 — Domain or Specialist School
- d8 — Prohibited School
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
If the caster casts a spell for which he has not enough remaining MP, the difference can be subtracted from his caster level for the spell. If he doesn't have enough left for the minimum caster level, the spell fails.
Regaining Spent MP
MP naturally replenishes with rest. 8 hours of standard rest including meditation and/or divine communion recovers one half your total MP. A full day and night of complete bed rest will completely replenish all used MP.
Magical healing cannot replenish MP in any way. Magical effects may remove the Fatigue or Exhaustion conditions resulting from MP loss, but this does not replace lost MP.
Does a Cleric know all the spells on the Cleric list? Being able to choose from 40+ spells to cast at first level seems too powerful. Does a class know there normal spells per day but as spells known?
Also, it's not fun at the table. We have a warmage in our group and often half the combat time was waiting for the player which of his gazillion spells he might use that round. He started to think about it only when his turn started and in the earlier games didn't really know what all of them do.
Glad to help. The trick with capping the SP system from Unearthed Arcana it to calculate how many spells a caster knows at a given level vs. the cost of SP it would require to cast those known spells at that level. Tally this and make that total the cap for spells at that level. Perhaps you could house rule a system similar to HARP's point system which is very non-3.5 but viable as it uses points to cast, and manages to keep the lower level spells relevant by making them "boostable" with points + all meta is simply point additions..etc.The F
So you had this:
- Prep Casters use Spells Per Day to select their available spells for the day.
- Magic points and Magic costs as per Unearthed Arcana Spell points.
- Of those MP, the caster may not spend more on a particular level than would be available for that level in spells per day.
This seems to me like it would be very balanced, but it is still very heavy on preparation time, because of the first item. This is my major problem with the U.A. system, it still requires me to pick my spells at the beginning of the day, even though it's less work than Vance.
I'm going to try letting people access their whole list, with only Spellbook and Spells Known restrictions. This might make Divine Casters way too powerful...
Here is the current text of the rule I am going to test. Again, feedback and even negative projections are welcome:
Spell lists and Preparation
Classes that prepare spells need not prepare specific spells in advance, but rather have access to any spell on their class's spell list at all times. Maximum spell level is still determined by caster level, or caster level and bonus spells for those progressions that allow "0" spells per dayWizards are still restricted to spells studied in their spellbooks. They must pay the price for spell book materials as a "learning cost" when acquiring new spells from a scroll or other source, but they no longer require the...
Looks good, I will give some further scrutiny but first glance seems balanced.
Another reason I scrapped the Unearthed Arc SP/MP system with the modified spell level cap is because the DM/GM has to really pay attention to how many point the caster has spent on any given spell level and though I consider myself rather bright it is very daunting to keep tally over a 5-7 hour game session...and player have been known to cheat.
Also, it's not fun at the table. We have a warmage in our group and often half the combat time was waiting for the player which of his gazillion spells he might use that round. He started to think about it only when his turn started and in the earlier games didn't really know what all of them do.
Would it make sense to impose a Spells Known limit on Divine Casters? If they were permanently limited to a number of spells equal to the spells per day table, players would necessarily select only their most used spells or those most iconic for their deity/powersource.
That eliminates prep time, but it puts the Wizard on top in terms of flexibility— something that happens anyway, unless your GM starves them for gold or scrolls. (both still options)
EDIT: Now that I think it over, I think that giving everyone some form of Spells Known limitation is key. Shorten those spell lists, and things become much more manageable with Magic Points. Even the Wizard should be subject; although his spellbook serves as a sort of "spells known" restriction, he should be limited to the number of spells he can have in his repertoire, so things don't get out of hand. Now, that isn't backward compatible, but look at the nature of all our complaints about the wizard... too many spell options.
I wonder is the a fair way to regulate the wizard's selection without compromising his versatility, and cutting down on paperwork prep at the same time.
EDIT #2: Pending further statistical analysis, I think Spell Dice should be changed from d4, d6, d8 to d8, d10, d12. That should allow approximately the correct number of "highest level" spells on a bad spelldie roll.
Example: An 11th level druid casts a 6th level spell: the average roll on his 6d10 should be 33, and has an expected total MP of 65+33. A bad roll of a 60 would prevent him from casting a second spell of highest level.
I still have my doubts about the actual dice I'm using, but I'm pretty sure randomizing the cost is a deterrent to casting too many high level spells.
Disclaimer: What follows is an amendment to the above house-rule, not intended for inclusion in Pathfinder but for my own playtests and use by those who might like a Magic Point System.
After some playtesting:
2 problems arise.
First, with spell dice, the more your roll the less random they become. So the highest levels (9d6) are more predictable than the lowest. This is the opposite of my aim, using the random element to spook spellcasters from casting too many highest-level spells. If you know something about dice probabilities and can suggest a parsimonious solution, please speak.
Second, I think all classes in this system should have a Spells Known List. To use the Spells-Per-Day table to determine spells known for these classes, as Unearthed Arcana did, is a decent approximation. This nerfs Clerics, Druids, and Wizards a great deal.
This will reduce prep-time, turn-decision time, and help clean up the higher levels. Wizards are also subject to spells known, but have the added benefit of casting any spell in their spellbook at minimum caster level, as a Full-Round Action, but only with said spellbook in hand (putting it at great risk in combat). Wizards may increase their Spells Known by taking the Spell Mastery Feat (may want to open this to the Divine Casters as well).
All casters (formerly) non-spontaneous casters can undergo a costly ritual (Prayer or Supplication for Divine casters, study and recalibration for Wizards) to exchange spells into their Spells Known Repertoire at a cost of 100g x spell level squared.
This week's Magic Point playtest text:
Spells Known
Classes that prepare spells need not prepare specific spells in advance, but know select a number of available spells at each level equal to their former Spells Per Day. Bonus spells granted by high ability scores add to this number. (Domains, and Specialist Schools increase the number of spells known on this list— unless using Domains/Arcane Schools from Alpha 3)
All (formerly) non-spontaneous casters can undergo a costly ritual (Prayer or Supplication for Divine casters, study and recalibration for Wizards) to exchange spells into their Spells Known Repertoire at a cost of 100g times spell level squared. The ritual takes an amount of time equal to the former spell preparation time. Spontaneous casters, now less disadvantaged by their limited selection, must still wait for their class ability for the opportunity to switch.
Wizards are restricted to spells studied in their spellbooks. They must pay the price for spell book materials as a "learning cost" when acquiring new spells from a scroll or other source. Wizards may cast any spell in their spellbook at minimum caster level, as a Full-Round Action, but only with said spellbook in hand (putting it at great risk in combat). Wizards may increase their Spells Known by taking the Spell Mastery Feat.
Mana Dice
Characters with a "Spells per day" table roll a Mana Die at each level to determine their total Mana Points. The key ability bonus for their class's magic is added to this roll, and first level characters automatically receive the maximum number of Mana Points.
Classes that do not begin with spells at first level roll mana dice only once they have gained access to spell casting abilities. Multiclass characters with 2 or more spellcasting classes must maintain separate MP totals for each such class.
Mana Die Type:
d6 Paladin (Wis), Ranger (Wis)
d8 Bard (Cha)
d10 Cleric (Wis), Druid (Wis), Wizard (Int)
d12 Sorcerer (Cha)
Casting Spells
When casting a spell, the player rolls a number of d6 equal to the spell's level to determine the amount of mana points lost. Cantrips, Orisons, and all zero level spells are now At-will Spell-Like Abilities.
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
If the caster casts a spell for which he has not enough remaining MP, the difference can be subtracted from his caster level for the spell. If he doesn't have enough left for the minimum caster level, the spell fails.
Regaining Spent MP
MP naturally replenishes with rest. 8 hours of standard rest including meditation and/or divine communion recovers one half your total MP. A full day and night of complete bed rest will completely replenish all used MP.
Magical healing cannot replenish MP in any way. Magical effects may remove the Fatigue or Exhaustion conditions resulting from MP loss, but this does not replace lost MP.
Disclaimer: What follows is an amendment to the above house-rule, not intended for inclusion in Pathfinder but for my own playtests and use by those who might like a Magic Point System.
After some playtesting:
2 problems arise.
First, with spell dice, the more your roll the less random they become. So the highest levels (9d6) are more predictable than the lowest. This is the opposite of my aim, using the random element to spook spellcasters from casting too many highest-level spells. If you know something about dice probabilities and can suggest a parsimonious solution, please speak.
Second, I think all classes in this system should have a Spells Known List. To use the Spells-Per-Day table to determine spells known for these classes, as Unearthed Arcana did, is a decent approximation. This nerfs Clerics, Druids, and Wizards a great deal.
I can't find my spell point stuff -- last messed with it during 2E AD&D... but a couple things come to mind.
First: Don't go with a straight progression on spell costs per level. A ninth level spell is more than nine times as powerful as a first level spell. Make cantrips etc. cost 1 (yes, they've had them since 1E AD&D), go with a d6 for first but start using larger dice as you go up: d8 for 3rd / 4th level spells, d10 for 5th / 6th level spells, d12 for 7th level and higher spells. As an example, a ninth level spell costs 9d12 points, while a 2nd level spell costs 2d6. It increases the range of points it'll cost and lowers the number of high level spells they'll cast.
Second: Agreed. Wizards the old fashioned way. I had set lists for clerics IIRC in which the spells they knew (even 1st level) increased as they went up.
It's looking interesting btw, have fun with it.
Excellent! Thanks for the feedback! Will try this in the next playtest.
Anyone else interested in trying this rule out and reporting back? Just so that I don't have all my eggs in the same basket. It would be nice to have an agreed upon alternative to Vance— Pathfinder's a lifeboat, we should try an fit as many folks aboard as possible.
Like so?
- 0th: 1d3
- 1st: 1d6
- 2nd: 2d6
- 3rd: 3d8
- 4th: 4d8
- 5th: 5d10
- 6th: 6d10
- 7th: 7d12
- 8th: 8d12
- 9th: 9d12
- 10th+ spell lvl X d12
10th+ is for metamagics and such.
That's good and random at higher levels for sure. But *damn* if that isn't a lot of arithmetic to be doing for each spell. I use dicetool so it's not a big deal for me, but how does it play manually?
One potential fix is to only force a Spell Dice roll on highest-level spells, and let them take a flat average for lower level spells. Sort of a learning curve. Here's what that would look like:
Casting Spells
Lower level spells cost a flat rate in MP, since the caster has practiced and can cast them reliably. When casting the highest known spell level, the MP cost is randomized to create some uncertainty.
Spell Costs (Lower levels):
- 0th: 2
- 1st: 3
- 2nd: 6
- 3rd: 13
- 4th: 18
- 5th: 55
- 6th: 33
- 7th: 45
- 8th: 52
- 9th: 58
- 10th+ spell lvl X 6.5 (round down)
Learning Curve
When casting a spell of the highest level available to the character, the player rolls a number of Spell Dice equal to the spell's level to determine the amount of mana points lost.
Spell Dice (Highest level):
- 1st: 1d6
- 2nd: 2d6
- 3rd: 3d8
- 4th: 4d8
- 5th: 5d10
- 6th: 6d10
- 7th: 7d12
- 8th: 8d12
- 9th: 9d12
- 10th+ spell lvl X d12
Agreed. Wizards the old fashioned way. I had set lists for clerics IIRC in which the spells they knew (even 1st level) increased as they went up.
What do you think about the spellbooks as "a book of permanent scrolls"? The full-round action is to balance them against those wizards who had a scroll of every spell and spent move-actions to retrieve them. They won't get full caster-level though, that should mitigate the abuse a little. In any case, it's better than the current state of things.
That's good and random at higher levels for sure. But *damn* if that isn't a lot of arithmetic to be doing for each spell. I use dicetool so it's not a big deal for me, but how does it play manually?One potential fix is to only force a Spell Dice roll on highest-level spells, and let them take a flat average for lower level spells. Sort of a learning curve.
Actually the math isn't any worse than rolling damage dice for some spells (i.e. a ten hd fireball) or the hp for some higher level monsters / NPCs. I tried it for about the last year of my 2E game (before switching to 3E) and it worked, no complaints from the magic users in the group. You could average the cost for spells, but eventually that leads back to fixed spell costs and, oddly enough, the spell casters seem to enjoy the rolling. It's about the only time you'll here them cheering for low rolls...
There are a number of interesting spin offs for the spell point system btw. For example, group spell casting, with spell points being drawn from the primary caster and other secondary casters (who don't have to know the spell, just participate in a ritual). I'd have a feat for group casting with the costs per point drawn from secondary casters being doubled. Goes really well with covens of witches, groups of clerics etc. Another aspect of spell points is sacrifice. Evil wizards / clerics could sacrifice people to use their hp as spellpoints. Another thing I used, some magic items to store spell points for later use (amulets etc.). Lots of fun stuff there.
Wish looked like fun too. I made the Limited Wish and Wish spells into something a bit different. I never got to test it out (PCs weren't high enough) but it looked / sounded good. A wish spell was a minor bound spirit (a Day Dream -- I had, and have, dreams as spririts in my game) summoned and bound to carry out the wish. As part of the spell it gained access to all the common spells of the appropriate level and a large number of spell points to carry out the wish. The wizards cost for the wish summoned and bound the Day Dream, and gave it access to spells and a way to tap into the magic (spell points) for a one time "fill up". Day Dreams being CN it was always best to define those wishes carefully when cast. Generally speaking most things could be accomplished with this as the basis for a wish. IIRC I gave the Limited Wish 5 spell points per level of the caster and the Wish 10 points per level of the caster. At the end of the wish the spirit was free to go back to the Spirit World (Ethereal plane). Some didn't or couldn't go and that lead to another monster, the Whimsy, a Day Dream able to cast spells. Djinn in a bottle worked largely the same way, they were couped up in a bottle which gathered / contained spell points which they administered to carry out wishes. Anyway, it gave boundaries to what a wish was and what could / couldn't be done with it.
I won't be using fixed costs at all. Lower levels, fewer dice, easier math. It was simply a thought experiment.
There are Red Wizards in my Forgotten Realms campaign, so that group MP idea may see some use. The wish thing is pretty interesting too, but seems more campaign specific. Thanks for the input! I'll see where this goes, convince my players to accept Spells Known, roll some dice, and post some feedback!
I won't be using fixed costs at all. Lower levels, fewer dice, easier math. It was simply a thought experiment.
There are Red Wizards in my Forgotten Realms campaign, so that group MP idea may see some use. The wish thing is pretty interesting too, but seems more campaign specific. Thanks for the input! I'll see where this goes, convince my players to accept Spells Known, roll some dice, and post some feedback!
I can see ther Red Wizards doing group magic, and sacrifices for that matter. I've worked out my spirits (Dream, Disease, etc.) for 3E already. Have to go back and think through the spell point system in light of 3.5 / PF. You're infecting me with the urge to try it out again and see how it works with 3.5 / PF. It could be worse -- thanks :)
I can see ther Red Wizards doing group magic, and sacrifices for that matter. I've worked out my spirits (Dream, Disease, etc.) for 3E already. Have to go back and think through the spell point system in light of 3.5 / PF. You're infecting me with the urge to try it out again and see how it works with 3.5 / PF. It could be worse -- thanks :)
Definitely post your results here if you do!
If we get a few different groups playtesting magic points, we might be able to establish a "stable" alternative that could be fairly run alongside Vancian Pathfinder.
I think we're pretty close to that with the above rules, since everyone is more or less on par with a Sorcerer, in terms of available spells. It would be an interesting playtest to see, for instance, a Vancian Cleric and a Magic Point Cleric side by side.
I can see ther Red Wizards doing group magic, and sacrifices for that matter. I've worked out my spirits (Dream, Disease, etc.) for 3E already. Have to go back and think through the spell point system in light of 3.5 / PF. You're infecting me with the urge to try it out again and see how it works with 3.5 / PF. It could be worse -- thanks :)Definitely post your results here if you do!
If we get a few different groups playtesting magic points, we might be able to establish a "stable" alternative that could be fairly run alongside Vancian Pathfinder.
I think we're pretty close to that with the above rules, since everyone is more or less on par with a Sorcerer, in terms of available spells. It would be an interesting playtest to see, for instance, a Vancian Cleric and a Magic Point Cleric side by side.
My players are good with it. They liked the system. Have to go through things and make some changes. Check on the various metamagic feats and things which weren't around in 2E. Should be fun, but we'll see :)
In the campaign I'm currently in, we are using a spell point system, though it is slightly different.
Wizards get 6 SP a level, sorcs get 8, clerics and druids get 4 (i think), with some of the splatbook classes falling somewhere in between.
You also get your mental boost to it, but only once.
(so a wizard with 20 int would get a 1 time bonus of +5, which would increase when the wizard had 22 int, and so on).
Spells cost one SP per spell level. Metamagic cost one SP per "level adjustment" of the spell, with the cap being "if you couldn't have cast it in the normal system, you still can't". (rather unelegant, but it cut to the point).
Wizards could cast any spells from their books, clerics/druids could cast any spells known, and Sorcs were limited to their spell selection as usual- but got some amount of wep/armor prof and a boost in HD. (we had no sorcs, so I dunno the specifics of it, sorry).
You regained SP like you regained HP. Over time, depending on how strenuous you were working. You didn't "wake up" with full SP just like you don't necessarily wake up at full HP. The "8 hours of rest" business is largely discarded.
Overall it worked out fairly well. No one went nova because no one knew when the next opportunity to really take a good rest would be. Instead, folks were moderately well at conserving their Mana while still being able to contribute to the group.
-S
2 changes: No metamagics on Spellbook Castings.
Good and Evil Clerics get Cure/Cause as a bonus Spell Known for each level, to honor the former spontaneous ability.
Update rule text under the spoiler:
Spells Known
Classes that prepare spells need not prepare specific spells in advance, but know select a number of available spells at each level equal to their former Spells Per Day. Bonus spells granted by high ability scores add to this number. (Domains, and Specialist Schools increase the number of spells known on this list— unless using Domains/Arcane Schools from Alpha 3)
All (formerly) non-spontaneous casters can undergo a costly ritual (Prayer or Supplication for Divine casters, study and recalibration for Wizards) to exchange spells into their Spells Known Repertoire at a cost of 100g times spell level squared. The ritual takes an amount of time equal to the former spell preparation time. Spontaneous casters, now less disadvantaged by their limited selection, must still wait for their class ability for the opportunity to switch.
Clerics, Druids, and other classes with the ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into a specific spell (Cure, Cause, Summon Nature's Ally) automatically receive those spells as bonus spells known.
Wizards are restricted to spells studied in their spellbooks. They must pay the price for spell book materials as a "learning cost" when acquiring new spells from a scroll or other source. Wizards may cast any spell in their spellbook at minimum caster level as a Full-Round Action, but only with said spellbook in hand (putting it at great risk in combat). A spell cast from the spellbook cannot be altered by the caster via metamagic feats. Wizards may increase their Spells Known by taking the Spell Mastery Feat.
Mana Dice
Characters with a "Spells per day" table roll a Mana Die at each level to determine their total Mana Points. The key ability bonus for their class's magic is added to this roll, and first level characters automatically receive the maximum number of Mana Points.
Classes that do not begin with spells at first level roll mana dice only once they have gained access to spell casting abilities. Multiclass characters with 2 or more spellcasting classes must maintain separate MP totals for each such class.
Mana Die Type:
d6 Paladin (Wis), Ranger (Wis)
d8 Bard (Cha)
d10 Cleric (Wis), Druid (Wis), Wizard (Int)
d12 Sorcerer (Cha)
Casting Spells
When casting a spell, the player rolls a number of Spell Dice equal to the spell's level to determine the amount of mana points lost.
Spell Dice:
0th: 1d3
1st: 1d6
2nd: 2d6
3rd: 3d8
4th: 4d8
5th: 5d10
6th: 6d10
7th: 7d12
8th: 8d12
9th: 9d12
10th+ spell lvl X d12
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
If the caster casts a spell for which he has not enough remaining MP, the difference can be subtracted from his caster level for the spell. If he doesn't have enough left for the minimum caster level, the spell fails.
Regaining Spent MP
MP naturally replenishes with rest. 8 hours of standard rest including meditation and/or divine communion recovers one half your total MP. A full day and night of complete bed rest will completely replenish all used MP.
Magical healing cannot replenish MP in any way. Magical effects may remove the Fatigue or Exhaustion conditions resulting from MP loss, but this does not replace lost MP.
Selgard, that seems really simple and elegant. Point by point:
Wizards get 6 SP a level, sorcs get 8, clerics and druids get 4 (i think), with some of the splatbook classes falling somewhere in between.
You also get your mental boost to it, but only once.
(so a wizard with 20 int would get a 1 time bonus of +5, which would increase when the wizard had 22 int, and so on).
Mana dice were a flavor consideration for me that I largely regret, since everything else depends on it and it's rather arbitrary. Your system is less work, and more intuitive, but for some reason I like picturing a Red "Health" bar and a Blue "Mana" bar, using the same methods. Too many video games.
Spells cost one SP per spell level. Metamagic cost one SP per "level adjustment" of the spell, with the cap being "if you couldn't have cast it in the normal system, you still can't". (rather unelegant, but it cut to the point).
Yeah, I've struggled with that myself. Any ideas a more elegant method?
Wizards could cast any spells from their books, clerics/druids could cast any spells known, and Sorcs were limited to their spell selection as usual- but got some amount of wep/armor prof and a boost in HD. (we had no sorcs, so I dunno the specifics of it, sorry).
I am particularly proud of my wizard nerf above; they get spells known but can cast anything from the spellbook at min caster level, no metamagics, full round action. As for the sorcerer, the answer is simple: cast more than wizard, limited selection.
You regained SP like you regained HP. Over time, depending on how strenuous you were working. You didn't "wake up" with full SP just like you don't necessarily wake up at full HP. The "8 hours of rest" business is largely discarded.Overall it worked out fairly well. No one went nova because no one knew when the next opportunity to really take a good rest would be. Instead, folks were moderately well at conserving their Mana while still being able to contribute to the group.
I did it this way originally— but it raises questions about magical healing. I suppose with the smaller mana pools it would be workable.
Tell me more about how your handling this; everyone's going to have a different take, so let's not compete. Rather, I want all your ideas so I can rip them off. ;)
Just a quicky on spell point recovery and metamagic feats. I have it working as follows:
Wizards / arcane casters:
-- Recover their caster level in spell points per hour of sleep.
-- 1/2 their caster level when resting.
Clerics / divine casters:
-- Recover their caster level in spell points per hour of prayer / meditation.
-- 1/2 their caster level when asleep.
-- Double the above when praying or sleeping in grounds consecrated to their deity (temple, shrine, etc.).
I have it as caster level for multi-classed characters. levels in fighter etc. don't cut it for spell point recovery. For dual classed wizard / clerics I'd say have them recover the points seperately and don't let them mix points (I have wizards using their own arcane power, and clerics chanelling their deities).
Optionally give the wizards a penalty for consecrated grounds ("interference" from all those prayers divine energy) just to make it interesting. Maybe have areas where the wizards recover their spell points faster than normal ("magically fertile" areas to borrow a concept from Tekumel). Lots of possibilities.
Gives them something to argue about and a bit of different character. The wizards just want to sleep, the clerics want to stay up, burning useful adventuring time, to recover points (and I'm sure all that chanting is great when you're trying to go to sleep...).
This allows them to, mostly, recover over night, pretty much like the conventional system. I like the long drawn out spell point recovery idea, but that makes for a lot of down time the other classes don't have and creates a greater window of vulnerability for wizards.
Metamagic feats -- just raise the point cost with the levels in the description. A maximized fireball would cost the same as a 6th level spell (3rd level + 3 levels for the feat).
Wizards / arcane casters:
-- Recover their caster level in spell points per hour of sleep.
-- 1/2 their caster level when resting.
Shall we add a rider for the elves who do not sleep? I think I'll use a more egalitarian rule for the moment— though your roleplaying notes below are interesting. I'll try Caster Level per hour of (class appropriate wording) and half for a night's rest.
I have it as caster level for multi-classed characters. levels in fighter etc. don't cut it for spell point recovery. For dual classed wizard / clerics I'd say have them recover the points seperately and don't let them mix points (I have wizards using their own arcane power, and clerics chanelling their deities).
Which is not to say that it's an Arcane/Divine Split. Different Mana pool for each class, else you'll find a lot of Wizards starting out as 1st level sorcerers.
Is Caster Level necessary if the recovery rate is derived from total Mana Pool? Your suggestion models Hit Points more closely, and so I'll adopt it for verisimilitude. But it exposes a hated paradox of mine: in any given party, the player with the most hit points takes the longest to fully recover...
Metamagic feats -- just raise the point cost with the levels in the description. A maximized fireball would cost the same as a 6th level spell (3rd level + 3 levels for the feat).
We've got consensus on this issue, methinks.
For one- it was not my idea. If I gave that impression then I wholeheartedly apologize.
I am merely posting what my gaming group had already houseruled long before I was allowed into their mist.
as for "metamagic" elegance, i can't really think off hand of a good way to word it.
Each metamagic feat has a cost. This cost is expressed in spell points. These points are added to the cost of a spell. You can add multiple metamagic feats to a spell but the total metamagic feat cost can not exceed the level of the spell plus that cost. If the "adjusted level" of the spell would make that spell of a levle higher than you can cast, then you can not add that metamagic feat to that spell.
Not really elegant, but it spells it out.. I think.
Anytime you have spell points you imagine the red/blue bars.. there really isn't a cure for that, unfortunately. For us, i found that it lets us go a LOT Longer between periods of absolute rest- but when we finally were out of mana we had to rest for alot longer. Especially at the higher levels.
-S
Is Caster Level necessary if the recovery rate is derived from total Mana Pool? Your suggestion models Hit Points more closely, and so I'll adopt it for verisimilitude. But it exposes a hated paradox of mine: in any given party, the player with the most hit points takes the longest to fully recover...
We've got consensus on this issue, methinks.
I went for caster level to avoid dual class characters (with fighter or rogue or something as the other class) recovering their spell points more quickly than a single class wizard. If you had multiple arcane or divine casting classes I'd say combine them. If you were going to have a joint mana pool, than I'd say combine them. I like to keep it seperate to maintain a distinction between the arcane and divine spell casters.
As for elves, I'd say they get the sleeping rate while meditating / resting. A bit of an davantage, but not too significant.
Speaking of spell casters / supernatural abilities, there is no reason the spell points system couldn't apply to some special abilities (Paladin's laying on hands, protection from evil, etc.). Have to consider the rate they gain points at and how they are expended...
And as for sorcerers... the basic advantage for them went out the door with the spell point system. The primary difference between them and wizards was the trade off between flexibility and a more limited spell selection versus a deeper spell list and less tactical flexibility. Wizards now have pretty much the same flexibility with a deeper spell list. We narrowed the differences between them quite a bit. That bears some thought. The question being does having a few more spell points make up for their more limited spell selection.
Speaking of spell casters / supernatural abilities, there is no reason the spell points system couldn't apply to some special abilities (Paladin's laying on hands, protection from evil, etc.). Have to consider the rate they gain points at and how they are expended...
Considered this, but opt to avoid it based on keeping things equivalent to the Vancian system.
And as for sorcerers... the basic advantage for them went out the door with the spell point system. The primary difference between them and wizards was the trade off between flexibility and a more limited spell selection versus a deeper spell list and less tactical flexibility. Wizards now have pretty much the same flexibility with a deeper spell list. We narrowed the differences between them quite a bit. That bears some thought. The question being does having a few more spell points make up for their more limited spell selection.
Sorcerers still have a role. They cast more, but know less. Pathfinder Bloodlines add a lot of flavor to the class as well. I don't find them to be obsolete. The tradeoff may not be enough, it's true, but I'd like to keep modifications strictly concerning the magic system, and not alter the classes themselves. If we have to boost sorcerer MP, or change their spell dice type, in order to emulate the way the sorcerer is under the conventional system, then so it must be.
Damn, though. That might require a total mana/spell-die reworking.
Considered this, but opt to avoid it based on keeping things equivalent to the Vancian system.
Sorcerers still have a role. They cast more, but know less. Pathfinder Bloodlines add a lot of flavor to the class as well. I don't find them to be obsolete. The tradeoff may not be enough, it's true, but I'd like to keep modifications strictly concerning the magic system, and not alter the classes themselves. If we have to boost sorcerer MP, or change their spell dice type, in order to emulate the way the sorcerer is under the conventional system, then so it must be.
Damn, though. That might require a total mana/spell-die reworking.
When you make a major change to game mechanics it's going to cause other changes. I agree they should be minimized though. The bloodlines bit does help, but for my game I may drop the sorcerer... and re-work the paladin a bit. *sigh* Well, it'll be interesting.
I think the school specialist wizards could be fun under a spell point system. Lower their costs in their specialty, keep it the same or raise it for other spells. Depends on whether or not you prohibit their opposite schools or just want to make it more difficult. Drop the die type down one for their specialty (i.e. an illusionist casting a level 2 illusion would pay 2d4 instead of 2d6)... keep it the same for other spells and, I think, keep their forbidden schools off limits. Bears thinking about too.
Just another thought on spell points gained per level; roll the die by class + (charcateristic bonus) + caster level. One of my players pointed out an issue and came up with a this fix for it. Otherwise high level casters are far more restricted than their "Vancian" cousins. As it is, they're going to cast fewer spells at high level than a Vancian wizard, but the flexibility should counter balance that. It's a trade off, as he put it, you get flexibility but you are also sadled with resource management issues. I think it tends to power up the mage at low level and cut them down at higher level. Not that bad a thing IMO. Anyhow, how's it going? Any other issues showing up?
I've got to spend more time reading posts btw. I was refreshing my memory of the thread and I see you already had the specialist / domain costs upwards of my last post. Great minds think alike :)
Btw, the Paladin spell point cost for powers seems to be working out, I'll post a bit on it when I have it fully worked out...
Your player is exactly right, the essential trade-off of any magic point system augmenting the conventional system is this: if all spell levels are tracked from the same pool, you must either:
- increase the number of highest-level spells (to enable more low level casting) or
- decrease the number of lower-level spells (to limit the number of highest-level spells).
Which method poses a greater threat to balance and compatibility? It's hardly necessary to make an exact match, but I would like for MP users to play nicely with published material in the same way their that Vance does. Also, MP casters shouldn't be gaining significant power they didn't have before. Generally speaking, this means tracking Highest-Level spells against conventional allowances.
The rule I've posted above (imperfect though it is) was calibrated with this in mind, starting with a baseline of the conventional Spells Per Day table, slightly increasing the amount of highest spells available (to increase the amount of lower level spells), then adding Spell Dice to randomize the cost specifically to ward off casters from risking to cast that additional highest level spell.
According to my spreadsheets, at any given level a caster with a d10 magic die should be able to cast between 3-4 of their Highest-Level spells, or, if they roll poorly (statistically improbable) on spell dice only 1 such spell. This math allowed for moderate advancement in the Key Ability. I have converted some of my PCs, who fared even better in the MP department, as imagine most PCs will.
If Highest-Level spells are a concern, I don't advise increasing the MP available by adding Caster Level to the equation. On the other hand, if maintaining the number of lower level spells is a higher priority, then rock on. Add caster level, it's a good fix for those priorities.
The rule seems to be failing Sorcerers in the spells-per-day department, but it seems that with Bloodlines, bonus feats, and bonus spells known, not to mention that all casters are now more or less on par with their spell libraries, they should hold their own. True, they lose some novelty, but the Pathfinder Sorcerer certainly compensates. The Sorcerer in this MP system is a wizard without a spellbook (which has also been nerfed), who knows fewer spells but can cast (on average) 1-2 more spells of her highest-level per day. I think that's a fair representation of her essential themes: more casting power, less flexibility.
I look forward to your model for the Paladin's other powers. I think we could do worse than to have all supernatural abilities work off of MP, and though that is beyond the scope of what I am attempting I'd love to see your results.
EDIT: Specialists... I took the spec/domain rule out of the most recent rule text. I play a specialist evoker (which was one of the worst decisions I have ever made for a character, but I'm attached to him now) and right now I am using the most recent MP rule text with the Alpha 3 specialist rules. It's been announced that the latter will be changing in the Beta, so I plan to proceed playtesting in this manner until armed with further knowledge.
Dropping a Spell Die Type by one (d6 to d4, etc) is a good way to emulate a bonus spell for either Specialist Schools or Domains. I just wish I knew how things would go in the Beta.
EDIT 2: Playtesting has been on hold since no games have rolled since my last update. I have an idea whereby I will be cloning a Cleric PC, and having his clones alternately duel him or run side-by-side with him through a few adventures. By having one use MP and one use Vancian, I hope to get a sense of the balance between the two systems. What a zany idea!
Full Rule Text:
Magic Points
This optional rule replaces prepared and spontaneous spells with a single Magic Point system. All spellcasters know a limited number of spells, and can cast slightly more highest-level spells in exchange for fewer spells over all. Spell costs in Magic Points are randomized to discourage casting only highest-level spells.
Spells Known
Classes that formerly prepared spells no longer need to prepare spells in advance They know select a number of available spells at each level equal to their former Spells Per Day. Bonus spells granted by high ability scores add to this number.
All (formerly) non-spontaneous casters can undergo a costly ritual (Prayer or Supplication for Divine casters, study and recalibration for Wizards) to exchange spells into their Spells Known Repertoire at a cost of 100g times spell level squared. The ritual takes an amount of time equal to the former spell preparation time. Spontaneous casters, now less disadvantaged by their limited selection, must still wait for their class ability for the opportunity to switch.
Clerics, Druids, and other classes with the ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into a specific spell (Cure, Cause, Summon Nature's Ally) automatically receive those spells as bonus spells known.
Wizards are restricted to spells studied in their spellbooks. They must pay the price for spell book materials as a "learning cost" when acquiring new spells from a scroll or other source. Wizards may cast any spell in their spellbook at minimum caster level as a Full-Round Action, but only with said spellbook in hand (putting it at great risk in combat). A spell cast from the spellbook cannot be altered by the caster via metamagic feats.
Mana Dice
Characters with a "Spells per day" table roll a Mana Die at each level to determine their total Mana Points. The key ability bonus for their class's magic is added to this roll, and first level characters automatically receive the maximum number of Mana Points.
Classes that do not begin with spells at first level roll mana dice only once they have gained access to spell casting abilities. Multiclass characters with 2 or more spellcasting classes must maintain separate MP totals for each such class.
Mana Die Type:
- d6 Paladin (Wis), Ranger (Wis)
- d8 Bard (Cha)
- d10 Cleric (Wis), Druid (Wis), Wizard (Int)
- d12 Sorcerer (Cha)
Casting Spells
When casting a spell, the player rolls a number of Spell Dice equal to the spell's level to determine the amount of mana points lost.
Spell Dice:
- 0th: 1d3
- 1st: 1d6
- 2nd: 2d6
- 3rd: 3d8
- 4th: 4d8
- 5th: 5d10
- 6th: 6d10
- 7th: 7d12
- 8th: 8d12
- 9th: 9d12
- 10th+ spell lvl X d12
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
If the caster casts a spell for which he has not enough remaining MP, the difference can be subtracted from his caster level for the spell. If he doesn't have enough left for the minimum caster level, the spell fails.
Regaining Spent MP
MP naturally replenishes with rest. A full night's rest (8 hours) including meditation and/or divine communion recovers one half your total MP. A full day and night of complete bed rest will completely replenish all used MP.
Magical healing cannot replenish MP in any way. Magical effects may remove the Fatigue or Exhaustion conditions resulting from MP loss, but this does not replace lost MP.
Magic Items Affecting Spell Slots
Magic items and other abilities that grant the recovery of spells at certain levels (such as a Pearl of Power) or grant bonus spell slots may, as a free action, replenish an amount of MP equal to a Spell Dice roll of the spell level granted by the item. For example, a character in possession of a Pearl of Power (3rd) can use the item once per day to reclaim 3d8 MP.
Magic items and other abilities that grant a variable number of bonus spells slots (i.e. "double x level") should increase the wearer's mana pool by 1 point per Spell Level of the item. For example, a Ring of Wizardry IV, worn by a 3rd level caster grants +12 MP. The same ring worn by a 17th level caster grants +60 MP.
Metamagic Feats
A spell enhanced by a metamagic feat uses the same spell dice as a spell of it's modified level. The spell's modified level cannot exceed the highest spell level available to the character.
Arcane Schools and Domain Spells
Pending the release of Pathfinder Beta, specialist wizards and casters with access to Divine Domains use the same Spell Dice as noted above, and adhere to the benefits and restrictions offered in the Pathfinder Alpha 3 release. Optionally, players can forgo those benefits in exchange for a lower MP cost in their School/Domain, by shifting Spell Dice for these spells down one "type" (d12 to d10, d10 to d8, and so on).
The rule I've posted above (imperfect though it is) was calibrated with this in mind, starting with a baseline of the conventional Spells Per Day table, slightly increasing the amount of highest spells available (to increase the amount of lower level spells), then adding Spell Dice to randomize the cost specifically to ward off casters from risking to cast that additional highest level spell.
According to my spreadsheets, at any given level a caster with a d10 magic die should be able to cast between 3-4 of their Highest-Level spells, or, if they roll poorly (statistically improbable) on spell dice only 1 such spell. This math allowed for moderate advancement in the Key Ability. I have converted some of my PCs, who fared even better in the MP department, as imagine most PCs will.
If Highest-Level spells are a concern, I don't advise increasing the MP available by adding Caster Level to the equation. On the other hand, if maintaining the number of lower level spells is a higher priority, then rock on. Add caster level, it's a good fix for those priorities.
I was thinking along the same lines, tracking high level spells to get an equivalent. The issue he pointed out is that those "lower" level spells (4-7) are still extremely useful even if you have 8 / 9th level spells, and if you use them you've crippled your ability to cast the highest level spells which you would be guaranteed access to in a Vancian system. He came equiped with excel spreadsheets etc. to make his point, and it bears consideration. It's an interesting task, judging the value of flexibility vs. guaranteed numbers. In any event, with this boost you're still casting less spells overall, and flexibility is the bonus. We'll see how it works out.
*edit* Oh, as an aside, I think the usefullness of devices which grant extra spell slots, or points in our case, increased dramatically given the constraints on the number of spells castable...
I was thinking along the same lines, tracking high level spells to get an equivalent. The issue he pointed out is that those "lower" level spells (4-7) are still extremely useful even if you have 8 / 9th level spells, and if you use them you've crippled your ability to cast the highest level spells which you would be guaranteed access to in a Vancian system. He came equiped with excel spreadsheets etc. to make his point, and it bears consideration. It's an interesting task, judging the value of flexibility vs. guaranteed numbers. In any event, with this boost you're still casting less spells overall, and flexibility is the bonus. We'll see how it works out.*edit* Oh, as an aside, I think the usefulness of devices which grant extra spell slots, or points in our case, increased dramatically given the constraints on the number of spells castable...
Do me a favor and convey to him my thanks for his investigation. He's right, but simply increasing the total number of MP by an amount seems to me it will do more damage than good.
It turns out the spreadsheets I cited in the last post were for Spell Level * d6, as per the earlier system (where spec/domains were on a d4). I changed to the present Spell Dice Types pretty much on a whim, something I now regret. Please ask him to consider how things work out with a d6 per spell level at all levels.
That system cleaves much more closely to the standard we mentioned, but sadly it becomes more and more stable at higher spell levels, making it's own purpose moot. One possible solution I have struggled to avoid is this: instead of multiple d6s roll 2d4*Spell Level. Those people who know their multiplication tables would find this much faster in play, and the randomness is more than adequate (and equal throughout the levels)
Thanks again to you and your friend for contributing, and for finding the glaring hole in my method. ;)
EDIT: 2d4 * Spell Level seems to address most of the issues. Numbers under the cut.
I am a poor statistician at best. Below are the ranges for 2d4*1-9, with the mean in parenthesis.
- *.5 for 0th = 1-4 (2)
- 1st 2-8 (5)
- 2nd 4-16 (10)
- 3rd 6-24 (15)
- 4th 8-32 (20)
- 5th 10-40 (25)
- 6th 12-48 (30)
- 7th 14-56 (35)
- 8th 16-64 (40)
- 9th 18-72 (45)
And here's the updated full rule text I will use to playtest the 2d4 method on Sunday:
Magic Points
This optional rule replaces prepared and spontaneous spells with a single Magic Point system. All spellcasters know a limited number of spells, and can cast slightly more highest-level spells in exchange for fewer spells over all. Casting costs are randomized to discourage casting only highest-level spells.
Spells Known
Classes that formerly prepared spells no longer need to prepare spells in advance. They know select a number of available spells at each level equal to their former Spells Per Day. Bonus spells granted by high ability scores add to this number.
Spellcasters may undergo a costly ritual (Prayer or Supplication for Divine casters, study and recalibration for Wizards) to exchange spells into their Spells Known Repertoire at a cost of 100g times spell level squared. The ritual takes an amount of time equal to the former spell preparation time. Spontaneous casters, now less disadvantaged by their limited selection, must still wait for their class ability for the opportunity to switch.
Clerics, Druids, and other classes with the ability to spontaneously convert prepared spells into a specific spell type (Cure Wounds, Cause Wounds, Summon Nature's Ally) automatically receive those spells as bonus spells known.
Wizards are restricted to spells studied in their spellbooks. They must pay the price for spell book materials as a "learning cost" when acquiring new spells from a scroll or other source. Wizards may cast any spell in their spellbook at minimum caster level as a Full-Round Action, but only with said spellbook in hand (putting it at great risk in combat). A spell cast from the spellbook cannot be altered by metamagic feats.
Mana Dice
Characters with a "Spells per day" table roll a Mana Die at each level to determine their total Mana Points. The key ability bonus for their class's magic is added to this roll, and first level characters automatically receive the maximum number of Mana Points.
Classes that do not begin with spells at first level roll mana dice only once they have gained access to spell casting abilities. Multiclass characters with 2 or more spellcasting classes must maintain separate MP totals for each such class.
Mana Die Type:
- d6 Paladin (Wis), Ranger (Wis)
- d8 Bard (Cha)
- d10 Cleric (Wis), Druid (Wis), Wizard (Int)
- d12 Sorcerer (Cha)
Casting Spells
When casting a spell, the player rolls 2d4, and multiplies the result by the level of the spell to determine the amount of mana points lost.
At zero MP, a character is Fatigued, but may continue to cast until -10mp, at which point the character is Exhausted and cannot cast any more spells.
If the caster casts a spell for which he has not enough remaining MP, the difference can be subtracted from his caster level for the spell. If he doesn't have enough left for the minimum caster level, the spell fails.
Regaining Spent MP
MP naturally replenishes with rest. A full night's rest (8 hours) including meditation and/or divine communion recovers one half your total MP. A full day and night of complete bed rest will completely replenish all used MP.
Magical healing cannot replenish MP in any way. Magical effects may remove the Fatigue or Exhaustion conditions resulting from MP loss, but this does not replace lost MP.
Magic Items Affecting Spell Slots
Magic items and other abilities that grant the recovery of spells at certain levels (such as a Pearl of Power) or grant bonus spell slots may, as a free action, replenish an amount of MP equal to a Spell Dice roll of the spell level granted by the item. For example, a character in possession of a Pearl of Power (3rd) can use the item once per day to reclaim 2d4*3 MP.
Magic items and other abilities that grant a variable number of bonus spells slots (e.g. "double x level") should increase the wearer's mana pool by 1 point per Spell Level of the item. For example, a Ring of Wizardry IV, worn by a 3rd level caster grants +12 MP. The same ring worn by a 17th level caster grants +60 MP.
Metamagic Feats
A spell enhanced by a metamagic feat uses the same spell dice as a spell of it's modified level. The spell's modified level cannot exceed the highest spell level available to the character. Casting any spell enhanced by a metamagic feat is a full-round action, irrespective of character class.
Arcane Schools and Domain Spells
Pending the release of Pathfinder Beta, specialist wizards and casters with access to Divine Domains use the same Spell Dice as noted above, and adhere to the benefits and restrictions offered in the Pathfinder Alpha 3 release.
Do me a favor and convey to him my thanks for his investigation. He's right, but simply increasing the total number of MP by an amount seems to me it will do more damage than good.
It turns out the spreadsheets I cited in the last post were for Spell Level * d6, as per the earlier system (where spec/domains were on a d4). I changed to the present Spell Dice Types pretty much on a whim, something I now regret. Please ask him to consider how things work out with a d6 per spell level at all levels.
That system cleaves much more closely to the standard we mentioned, but sadly it becomes more and more stable at higher spell levels, making it's own purpose moot. One possible solution I have struggled to avoid is this: instead of multiple d6s roll 2d4*Spell Level. Those people who know their multiplication tables would find this much faster in play, and the randomness is more than adequate (and equal throughout the levels)
Thanks again to you and your friend for contributing, and for finding the glaring hole in my method. ;)
EDIT: 2d4 * Spell Level seems to address most of the issues. Numbers under the cut.
[Spoiler]
I am a...
I told him. He appreciated it. I haven't looked into the 2d4 change yet. Struggling with a couple of spells whose cost should vary from the norm -- Polymorph and Wish. I'm starting with the 3.5 version of each and tinkering with ways to adjust the cost to balance them *and* keep them useful. Posted a version (Vancian) of Polymorph in a thread here on Polymorph problems, but it's still in flux (and I expressed the cost of extra spell point expenditure as spell slots for the vancian system). It's getting there, slowly... I keep thinking of various cost adjustments and tinkering with the specific costs, but I think I can preserve the "cool factor" of the spell and keep the more powerful expressions of it for higher level casters.
I told him. He appreciated it. I haven't looked into the 2d4 change yet. Struggling with a couple of spells whose cost should vary from the norm -- Polymorph and Wish. I'm starting with the 3.5 version of each and tinkering with ways to adjust the cost to balance them *and* keep them useful. Posted a version (Vancian) of Polymorph in a thread here on Polymorph problems, but it's still in flux (and I expressed the cost of extra spell point expenditure as spell slots for the vancian system). It's getting there, slowly... I keep thinking of various cost adjustments and tinkering with the specific costs, but I think I can preserve the "cool factor" of the spell and keep the more powerful expressions of it for higher level casters.
I tried the 2d4*SL method today. So far so good, it hasn't been tried with more dedicated spellcasters yet, but I think I'm going to stick with it. The distribution is better, it doesn't "jump" every few levels, and it's just as random at 1st as it is at 9th.
My Druid player griped about the Divine Nerfing. Here is the compromise:
Optional Rule: Holy Symbols as Casting Items
Clerics and Druids may use the holy symbol of their faith to cast spells as the Wizard casts from his spellbook. The Cleric or Druid must pay the "learning cost" of the wizard for each spell available in this way, which represents the expense of the holy symbol, ritual, or tithe offered to the deity in exchange for the spells. Casting from a Holy Symbol is subject to the restrictions of spellbook casting (Full Round, Minimum Caster Level) and the Symbol is subject to sundering and splash damage when in use.
As you can see, this sets a grim precedent. But even Spellbooks and Holy Items are better than an infintite spell list. I actually like this compromise a lot, and it has me wondering if there isn't a better way to manage Spellbooks than simple GP learning costs.
Keep playing with it, keep telling us how you're playing with it!
I'm waiting for the folks from the hit point thread (you know the ones that insist you roll your first level hit points to come in on that. :)
Characters with a spells per day table roll the following mana die type, adding their relevant ability score, at each level. As with Hit Dice, the first level is automatically the maximum.
I hope people read that as: "use whatever rules your group agrees to use for Hit Points." The implicit HD options are the only real reason to randomize MD (well that and it discourages tweaking the numbers for x number of spells). By and large, people have found the Hit Dice rule that works for them; the other folks should stop trying to litigate other people's games and just do it their way.
Completely New Rule
All magic using classes cast spontaneously. Use the Sorcerer's Spells Known list to determine known spells for all classes.
In exchange for fewer spells per day, formerly prepared classes have access to a Casting Item (Spellbook, Holy Symbol, etc) that can be used as a full-round action to cast any spell (at minimum caster level) which the item has been imbued with. Imbuing an item costs 100g per spell level squared, and takes one day per 1000g (minimum 1 day).
A character begins play with a Casting item containing all 0-level spells available to a caster of that type plus three 1st-level spells of their choice. An item can hold a maximum of 100 levels worth of spells, although multiple items can be created and exchanged as a move-action.
</new rule>
------
Heartbreakingly simple isn't it? Let's review some of the advantages:
I think I may have invalidated the last few weeks of playtesting I did. I am happy and sad simultaneously.
I'm waiting for the folks from the hit point thread (you know the ones that insist you roll your first level hit points to come in on that. :)
Characters with a spells per day table roll the following mana die type, adding their relevant ability score, at each level. As with Hit Dice, the first level is automatically the maximum.
Already here. Mine do roll them, but I don't have an issue with people taking max at first either. To each, his own.
Completely New Rule
All magic using classes cast spontaneously. Use the Sorcerer's Spells Known list to determine known spells for all classes.
In exchange for fewer spells per day, formerly prepared classes have access to a Casting Item (Spellbook, Holy Symbol, etc) that can be used as a full-round action to cast any spell (at minimum caster level) which the item has been imbued with. Imbuing an item costs 100g per spell level squared, and takes one day per 1000g (minimum 1 day).
A character begins play with a Casting item containing all 0-level spells available to a caster of that type plus three 1st-level spells of their choice. An item can hold a maximum of 100 levels worth of spells, although multiple items can be created and exchanged as a move-action.
</new rule>
------
Heartbreakingly simple isn't it? Let's review some of the advantages:
Spells Per Day exactly as before.
No new charts or tables. No change to the old tables.
One cost formula, which is pretty much Spellbooks from before.
No more infinite spell list for Divine Casters.
Little Conversion effort- any module that can handle a Sorcerer can handle this. Wizard NPCs have unchanged spellbooks, just add spells known by picking them off the spellbook list.
Magic Items function exactly as before.
No spell dice roll, no Magic Point/Spell Point math.
This is as Vancian as you can get without the paperwork. I think I may have invalidated the last few weeks of playtesting I did. I am happy and sad simultaneously.
That's going to take a bit of time to look over and take in... simple is good, but I wonder how it's going to go in use. I do my own adventures in my own setting, so compatibility with published adventures / modules is not an issue for me. The time on this thread has certainly jump started my work on my game again. And however it works out my game has gained from it. Thanks :)
That's going to take a bit of time to look over and take in... simple is good, but I wonder how it's going to go in use. I do my own adventures in my own setting, so compatibility with published adventures / modules is not an issue for me. The time on this thread has certainly jump started my work on my game again. And however it works out my game has gained from it. Thanks :)
Heh, thanks to you too! The same is true for my game!
Also, one other unforeseen benefit of the above rule: no character sheet modification. In fact, this rule seems to play nicer with the existing character sheets, making use of Spells Known, Spells Per Day, and Spellbook sections all!
I'm going to jump in here with an untested idea. Each spell costs spell level plus 1 in mana points to cast. Each spell level has a Spellcraft DC to cast. A caster has mana points to cast spells a number of times as the standard table. When the spell is cast, the Spellcraft check determines how many mana points are actually used, so that a great result gives a lowered cost and a bad roll increases the cost. Exceeding your number of mana points results in hit point damage on a 1 for 1 basis. A scaled spell (fireball, etc) can voluntarily be cast with a lower level effect to preserve mana.
Does this sound like a good place to start?
I'm going to jump in here with an untested idea. Each spell costs spell level plus 1 in mana points to cast. Each spell level has a Spellcraft DC to cast. A caster has mana points to cast spells a number of times as the standard table. When the spell is cast, the Spellcraft check determines how many mana points are actually used, so that a great result gives a lowered cost and a bad roll increases the cost. Exceeding your number of mana points results in hit point damage on a 1 for 1 basis. A scaled spell (fireball, etc) can voluntarily be cast with a lower level effect to preserve mana.
Does this sound like a good place to start?
Rather like what we were working on. We had more points and the cost randomized as a seperate roll, you have the Spellcraft check doing it. Nice. And yeah, I roll the excess over into hit points. Keeps them honest :) A system can be worked out, jut depends on how much work you want to put into it and how it effects the rest of the game (magic items, game balance, etc.). Have at it and post your results, I'd like to see how it goes.
I'm sorry, but I don't get how this relates to the OP.Well, I know this is being a complete ass, but...
It's called 4th Edition D&D, dude.
It doesn't.
I'm going to jump in here with an untested idea. Each spell costs spell level plus 1 in mana points to cast... Does this sound like a good place to start?
Yes! All ideas welcome! Just because I flood this thread with my playtests doesn't mean everyone can't contribute their own solution! :)
Your suggestion sounds quite similar to Selgard's above, check out his system it might work well for you. Here's a point by point response to your post, orcface:
A caster has mana points to cast spells a number of times as the standard table.
This is more problematic than you might think. You have to either manage separate MP pools for each spell level, or get used to the idea of your PCs casting many, many more high level spells than they did before. Most of this thread has been trying to find that sweet spot.
A scaled spell (fireball, etc) can voluntarily be cast with a lower level effect to preserve mana.
I started out (before this thread) with scaling caster level as well. Unearthed Arcana's Spell Point System allows for this too.
If you didn’t have to pay more for a 9d6 lightning bolt than for a 5d6 lightning bolt (a 3rd-level spell costing 5 spell points), then the 9d6 lightning bolt would cost barely more than half as much as a 9d6 cone of cold (a 5th-level spell costing 9 spell points), even though both spells deal equal damage.
I find in practice, however, that the additional control isn't worth the effort. The rationale offered by Unearthed Arcana above is spurious, they completely overlook the most important aspect of higher level spells, Save DC. By analogy, all the sneak attack dice in the world won't drop a goblin if they miss every time. Setting a CL for every spell cast somewhere between the maximum and the minimum (which varies by class) turned out to be a bigger hassle than I'd like, for less payoff.
Each spell level has a Spellcraft DC to cast ... When the spell is cast, the Spellcraft check determines how many mana points are actually used, so that a great result gives a lowered cost and a bad roll increases the cost. Exceeding your number of mana points results in hit point damage on a 1 for 1 basis.
I like the idea of using spellcraft, especially if it doesn't threaten a failed spell. Between saves, ranged touch attacks, spell resistance, and spell failure chance, most spells have enough chances to fail already. In my first attempt system, I had each school of arcane magic as it's own skill, Clerics had a "Prayer" skill, and Druids had a "Seid" skill. This was a good way to represent specialists without huge penalties.
I'll actually come to the defense of the poster who mentioned 4e, he's right. If you want a simpler magic system with less paperwork, it's a solution that you simply can't overlook. Nevertheless, I think Pathfinder has so much else going for it, that the PF players really deserve a simple alternative if preparing spell lists daily is no to their taste.
By way of cataloging the methods put forward thus far:
--- Wizards 6 SP/level, sorcs 8, clerics & druids get 4
--- One-time Key Ability (can increase)
--- Spells cost 1 SP per level (after metamagic)
--- Wizards could cast any spells from their books
--- clerics/druids could cast any spells known
--- Sorcs were limited to their spell selection as usual- but got some amount of wep/armor prof and a boost in HD.
--- MP Regained as HP
--- Uses different Dice types to increase randomness at higher spell levels (1st-2nd=d6, 3rd-4th=d8, 5th-6th=d10, 7th+=d12)
--- MP = Magic Die + Key ability + Caster Level per level
--- Class Abilities fueled by MP
--- Clerics pray, wizards sleep to regain MP
--- MP overruns into HP
--- MP = Magic Die + Key ability per level
--- MP cost creates Fatigue and Exhaustion at depletion
--- Spells cost 2d4 x Spell Level
--- Prepared casters have Spells Known (Spells Per Day Chart), and a Casting item (Spellbook, Holy Item) to compensate for smaller repertoire.
--- Spells Per Day as conventional
--- All Prepared casters use the Sorcerers Spells Known table, plus a casting item (Spellbook, Holy Item) that can hold spell lists.
--- Spells cost 1+Spell Level in MP
--- Spellcraft varies actual cost
--- Variable Caster Level