Hi.
This being my first post for Pathfinder I apologize for I must say a few words in general.
First of all I would like to say that my friends and I, hardcore gamers since 2ed D&D (s1994.), regret the current conception of the 4e, its utter commercialization and vulgar simplification (although there are several interesting and progressive ideas like rituals or complex skill checks).
On the other hand, we recently found out about Paizo Pathfinder and we want to express our deepest thanks to the developers and the community that helped its realization. We have only words of praise for the freshness of new ideas and a will to preserve and improve authentic role-playing experience as we know it. Thank you.
We recently started playtesting the system and we think that skill system is the most problematic chapter (as in all DnD editions). We salute the merging of some skills, but we think that Perception skill should not contain Search skill. Further, we think that Search should be an independent skill that will base on Intelligence (or Int/Wis average - see below).
1. Nature argument: Perception represents the use of senses, which are mostly an involuntary reactions of the body. We must block our senses not to feel, but to find something out we must activate our brain. Making perception contain all the senses is a great improvement, but we think that Search is different operation overall. We sure use senses for searching, but primary we use our cognitive functions and experience for finding that which is concealed. Senses are a medium here.
2. Technical argument: Also, we can search the appropriate area by not using only sight, but also a hearing, smell or touch.
3. Gaming argument: I dislike the idea that the best searchers (for trapdoors, traps, hidden compartments...) in my party would be druids and rangers. If the perception skill is maxed for druid, ranger and rogue, certainly that the first two classes will have higher wisdom scores than rogue, and so they will be primary dungeon, city/mansion-investigation :), trapfinding searchers.
4. Balance argument: Making Search an independent skill will make rogues a little less generic. I say this because we realized that rogues can hold max on almost all important skills with search in perception.
5. New idea: There is a more complex idea about designating which attribute should count for an appropriate skill, we thought that for some skills you could use an average between two scores (for example Search (Avrg Int&Wis).
We think that skill system should be made so that all skills have approximately the same weight and usability. This means consolidating skills, but not for consolidation itself (so that there are fewer skills).
There is also, a similar issue with swim and jump (athletics bundle), but that in another thread.
That's all.
I am sorry if this topic was already discussed, but I wasn't able to find it.
thanks.
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There have been a few discussions about this, but mostly on threads with titles regarding Skill Consolidation. I don't recall any individual threads about Search and Perception specifically.
I agree with the sentiment. With one exception (Disable Device / Open Locks), I don't like the idea of consolidating skills that use different Attributes.
Perception (or Notice, as Mutants & Masterminds uses it) should encompass Listen and Spot, and cover any other roll for 'noticing' something, whether by sight, sound, scent, taste or touch.
Search should remain Intelligence based and represent actively breaking down areas into quadrants for a search-and-rescue operation, 'shaking down' a room for clues, etc.
But it's really not a big enough deal for me to get worked up over, and it will be easy enough to house rule back the way I want it, regardless of what PF does with it.
[...]
I dislike the idea that the best searchers (for trapdoors, traps, hidden compartments...) in my party would be druids and rangers. If the perception skill is maxed for druid, ranger and rogue, certainly that the first two classes will have higher wisdom scores than rogue, and so they will be primary dungeon, city/mansion-investigation :), trapfinding searchers.
[...]
This is a good point!
I think that Search can be use to search for clues (not only traps), more like "Investigate", which really sounds Int-based. Sherlock Holmes!
To me, Perception/Search is Notice/Investigate and should be different skills, based on different abilities.
If Perception and Search are separate, a new feat, class ability or racial ability could be added to make Search Wisdom-based. (Ranger or Elf ability?)
I like almost everything of what has been done to skills until now, but I also think that Perception and Search should be two different skills, from a gamist and simulationist point of view.
But it's really not a big enough deal for me to get worked up over, and it will be easy enough to house rule back the way I want it, regardless of what PF does with it.
I agree. My group is just using a house rule that makes Search and Perception seperate skills for many of the reasons mentioned by previous posters.
I am usually DM for my group, but I'm currently letting one of my players DM for the first time. It was really hard to house rule Search as the one to use when I was searching the hut in Hollow's Last Hope...I was a 1st level druid with a +7 perception! (which shows how odd it would be for the druid to be the best at searching in the party).
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Because I'm a d20 Modern fan, and because there's a skill set that has not been tapped for D&D (and should), I'll say it again:
1. Perception = Spot and Listen. (Wisdom-based).
2. Investigate = Investigate (d20M), Research (d20M), and Search. (Intelligence-based).
The suggestion above is a Awesome idea.
I totally agree with everyone before me in this thread. I thought it was a lost cause and I was the only anti-perception as search dude.
I also agree the only stat-crossing skill merge should be Open Locks as Disable. If you read Disable, you realize Open Lock should already have been there. To show a little love to the Dex rogue crowd, I also say you can use Slight of Hand to Open Locks. In one hand, you figure out the lock and break it, in the other, you jimmy the lock with your light touch.
And good point on Sherlock Holmes, no way would anyone accuse that guy of having a high WIS.
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Because I'm a d20 Modern fan, and because there's a skill set that has not been tapped for D&D (and should), I'll say it again:
1. Perception = Spot and Listen. (Wisdom-based).
2. Investigate = Investigate (d20M), Research (d20M), and Search. (Intelligence-based).
Seconding the awesome-ness of this idea. Depending on the campaign, such as an Eberron game where Inquisitives are a valuable party role, having an Investigate / Research / Search sort of skill would be tres, tres cool.
Is this d20 Modern stuff in the SRD and OGL-usable?
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Is this d20 Modern stuff in the SRD and OGL-usable?
Yep. d20 Modern SRD.
Here's another handy little site: d20 System.
IMHO, the d20 Modern System rocks. I'll be bringing some ideas over to Pathfinder whether Paizo does or not ... some of the skills and the concept of class defenses for starters.
There have been a few discussions about this, but mostly on threads with titles regarding Skill Consolidation. I don't recall any individual threads about Search and Perception specifically.
I agree with the sentiment. With one exception (Disable Device / Open Locks), I don't like the idea of consolidating skills that use different Attributes.
Perception (or Notice, as Mutants & Masterminds uses it) should encompass Listen and Spot, and cover any other roll for 'noticing' something, whether by sight, sound, scent, taste or touch.
Search should remain Intelligence based and represent actively breaking down areas into quadrants for a search-and-rescue operation, 'shaking down' a room for clues, etc.
But it's really not a big enough deal for me to get worked up over, and it will be easy enough to house rule back the way I want it, regardless of what PF does with it.
Generally I'd say the whole Search\Spot\Listen being roled into 1 skill makes perfect sense to me.
To explain, Search is used to find secret doors, false walls, traps and similar. How is this done? Normally by knocking on walls(listening to odd sounding walls), looking for unusual cracks, feeling flows of air and trying to spot unusual mechanisms built into a doorframe or lock.
In short all these attempts use keen eyes, hearing or feeling( drafts etc) and occasionally sense of smell 'why's this wall got a funny smell wafting through it,ah ha-it's a door into the sewer'.
I've always thought the whole investigate skill was a ridiculous skill and was in fact a combination of senses.
As for using different Ability scores for skills, why not. It just represents a different approach to the same skill use. A huge barbarian smashing his axe into a wall is intimidate using strength whilst a rogue\bard could use a quiet description of how the person will die painfully, using charisma.
As for combining open lock and disable traps, they are both mechanisms, its the same general activity.
Makes sense to me.
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To explain, Search is used to find secret doors, false walls, traps and similar. How is this done? Normally by knocking on walls(listening to odd sounding walls), looking for unusual cracks, feeling flows of air and trying to spot unusual mechanisms built into a doorframe or lock.
In short all these attempts use keen eyes, hearing or feeling( drafts etc) and occasionally sense of smell 'why's this wall got a funny smell wafting through it,ah ha-it's a door into the sewer'.
But Search requires knowledge of what you are looking for, which implies use of the Intelligence ability. Someone looking for a secret door is actively LOOKING for a draft of air, unusual cracks or mechanisms, and odd sounding walls, etc.
Allowing someone to use their Wisdom ability to Search is allowing someone without the knowledge of what they are searching for to find it equally well as someone who does know what to look for.
Call me crazy (please do), but I always thought that if you have a "search" skill, that encompasses prior knowledge, active studying, and time, I think you could easily combine "appraise" with it.
like... maybe...
Appraise + Search = Investigate (Int)
or something like that. Just adding my two cents. In my opinion, i think they are two different skills with two different ability modifiers. But it doesn't kill me that they changed it.
Something people need to remember when stating that non-rogues end up being the trap finders for their parties, take a look at pg 38 of the beta rules:
"Trapfinding: Rogues (and only rogues) can use the
Perception skill to locate traps when the task has a
Difficulty Class higher than 20.
Finding a nonmagical trap has a DC of at least 10, or
higher if it is well hidden. Finding a magic trap has a DC
of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it.
Rogues (and only rogues) can use the Disable Device
skill to disarm magic traps. A magic trap generally has a
DC of 25 + the level of the spell used to create it."
Unless using the cleric spell, find traps, rogues are generally it for finding any trap that is any kind of threat to the party.