I have discussed power attack on my own thread already, and things are already bad enough. Have you ready the new vision yet? Melee types that are not barbarians already have about a cap of about 11 bonus damage no matter what they do other than getting a level adjust.
In my opinion, they have been knee caped too much as is, and this 1:1 is just ludicrous.
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Also a side note to the devs: there a lot of feats that say they apply "until your next turn" but don't say what type of action (free? move? immediate? swift?) they take to invoke. See Dodge for one example.
That's because they don't take an action to invoke. You simply decide whether you are using them or not, much like Power Attack.
The listed duration is relevant because of the one-at-a-time use limitation on Combat Feats, something that will be lost with the Beta anyway.
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I have discussed power attack on my own thread already, and things are already bad enough. Have you ready the new vision yet? Melee types that are not barbarians already have about a cap of about 11 bonus damage no matter what they do other than getting a level adjust.
In my opinion, they have been knee caped too much as is, and this 1:1 is just ludicrous.
Sorry Mr. Minmax, but allowing 2:1 was the worst change made to the original 3.0 Power Attack feat.
Consider the following even by your own example:
- I Power Attack for 11 points (still having lots of BAB/Strength/Magic/etc to work with, or using some other method of cheesing up to-hit bonus).
- I then double that power attack which goes to 22 points.
- I then cheese out ways to get a "doubling" effect on the damage or stack up ridiculous number of "full-BAB" (or nearly so) attacks.
This was a major problem in 3.5 and it's one of the things that just can't go on. Cap it at 5, and if you want more, PAY for it by buying properly balanced feats rather than one cheesy broken uberfeat.
Ummm yeah. 22 points just came off that CR 19's 200+ DR 10 Hit Points who happens to have fast healing 5. Ummm thanks I think I will go now.
I think you are right though. 22 points is WAY too much. In fact we'll cap it at 15 points and no PC regardless of class can do more than that per round. So all those 20d6 spells will have some time saved cause we don't even need to roll the dice.
The fighter class has already been so fragged it isn't funny. Deals the lowest damage in the game (maybe except the bard). And you want to reduce his damage even more? Why not just make the fighter an NPC class?
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The changes to Power Attack have really hurt my Paladin/Bard build idea. My goal was to build a character whose knowledge of her enemies allowed her to hurt them. I was going to use bardic knowledge, Collector of Stories (skill trick, CS), and Knowledge Devotion (CC) to get a bonus to attack on monsters that I succeed on skill checks to learn about - sort of like the archivist. Then I'd channel that into Power Attack so I could do reasonable damage.
As a paladin / bard, I need good stats in pretty much everything but Wisdom...so I can't beef up strength like a barb or fighter could. This will always be an issue for Paladins - even if they don't have a slighty weird build like mine!
Now, the changes to power attack pretty much mean that I'll have a good +attack, but that's only useful into mid levels. At high levels, I've lost all ability to use that to help my damage.
If you're going to limit power attack, I think it should be limited in the same manner you limit combat expertise - a maximum of -5 to attack. I'm okay with the new "all or nothing" power attack mechanic as well (only if power attack is thus limited to -5, or nothing would ever hit!), and could understand lowering the power attack damage bonus with 2 handed weapons to +1.5 damage per point of lost attack. I don't think nerfing it to 1 is reasonable, and I don't understand the thought processes behind the severe restrictions to a feat that wasn't too broken anyway...all it does is destroy fighter effectiveness...the class that most needs a boost!
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it is a conspiracy by the spellcasters to keep the fighters down. They don't want us competeing with them.
And you are right, all the "fixes" don't hurt the fighter too much until you get to higher levels. Somewhere around 12 or so the fighter will no longer be a contributing member of a party. The fighter will be forced to Multiclass or go PrC dipping all over the place.
Everyone claims they want to reduce PrC dipping, but for the fighter it is a necessity. After about lvl 5 I would start PrC as often as I could. By 20 I'd have at least 3 PrC to even be semi effective.
in fact with the Fighter Class entry they may as well go ahead and list about 5 Prestige Classes.
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And you are right, all the "fixes" don't hurt the fighter too much until you get to higher levels. Somewhere around 12 or so the fighter will no longer be a contributing member of a party.
Maybe something like:
The amount of attack bonus you give up is your Base Attack Bonus up to +5. Once your base attack bonus is greater than 5, you can choose the amount of attack bonus you give up in intervals of 5. Thus a 5th level rogue with a BaB of 4 using power attack will sacrifice 4 points of attack bonus for 4 points of extra damage with a dagger, and an 8th level rogue with a BaB of 6 will sacrifice 5 points of attack bonus for 5 points of extra damage. Not until 14 level, with a BaB of 10, will a rogue be able to choose whether to use 5 or 10 points of attack bonus to gain damage.
A Fighter 20 could put 5, 10, 15 or 20 points into a power attack.
Maybe this is too awkward, i dunno, but it limits the choices and simplifies things, yet keeps power attack relevant for martial types with high BaB.
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I've seen some pretty broken power attack combinations and can understand why people would want to stem the strength of it. I ran a long campaign from 1-22 and the fighter was really nuts in his damage output, certainly outdamaging our casters(and we were using spellpoints so they could lay out their own hurt pretty well). A frightening combination of high strength, power attack, leap attack, and a x3 weapon he had improved crit with meant that whenever he scored a hit he could do a freakish amount of damage.
In the upper-mid levels, you were looking at easily a +8 str mod(so +12 on damage, two handed weapon), with a +15 power attack(so +30 more damage, or +60 if leap attacking), and +4 for weapon spec and greater weapon spec.
Thats entirely without the weapons damage itself or any magical boosts it had.
He went the weapon supremecy route from the phb2, so that means he could do all this while grappled, take 10 on an attack, add +5 to one attack a round, and could use it with any slashing weapon, and due to 'slashing fury' he could still get two attacks in when moving(and thus with leap attack).
And that is ignoring that all of that takes a x3 when a crit was scored(which is far too often with him, but thats just because he is lucky so that isn't taken into consideration). Fighters can do insane damage real steadily.
-Tarlane
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I do want to tack onto that, I don't wish to see PA nerfed completely like I think the original poster was leaning. Just that I can see where the incredible amounts of damage can come from.
I think the new rules take care of it reasonably, since another problem that arises from power attack are the human calculators who end up drawing out their turn working out exactly what the enemies AC is and just what the damage percentages of each iterative attack is going to be based on the likeliness to hit are. The new system takes out some of the choice(which is normally bad) but also removes an area where it slows down play.
Now, I could certainly come to support an option like jess recommended above where you use your full base attack bonus in 5s, though I normally would lean to improved versions for something above 5.
-Tarlane
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Now, I could certainly come to support an option like jess recommended above where you use your full base attack bonus in 5s, though I normally would lean to improved versions for something above 5.
-Tarlane
What I have done for my playtesting I'm doing for the past 6 wks is change PA to:
-4 To attacks. (always).
+6 to damage with 1 handed weapons
+8 to damage with 2 handed weapons
(note the 2 handed weapon damage is no more than what 3.5 can allow by power attacking 4. This also brings the 1 handed damage to a closer gap. Finally, it doesn't allow exorbitant amount of power attacking, and it makes the math simple in that it always is this amount).
Impvd Power Attack
Pre: +8 BAB, Power Attack.
You can now choose to PA 10. You can still PA 4 if you prefer or not at all.
+15 to damage with 1 handed
+20 to damage with 2 handed
(only the most devoted PA person will take this - and it will usually only hit with the first attack. It still does no more damage with 2 handed weapon than 3.5 would do - still keeps a close gap with 1 handed weapon, and the math is standard - no sliding scale round to round confusing everyone.)
As for Combat Expert -
I changed the feat to: "Adds +2 to your AC when fighting defensive or taking full defense manuever."
Fighting defensively already subtracts 4 from your attacks to provide a +2 to AC; I made Combat Xpert do an extra +2 to AC, so your fighting Defensive now does -4 to attacks and +4 to AC.
So far, my initial playtesting results show these to be quite easy and fair.
Robert
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Any DM who actually allow this kind of thing deserves what s/he gets. I think the spirit of the rule is clear.#2 - Combat Expertise (Page 66)
This feat should apply when declaring the "full defense" option as well. Otherwise, you have players declaring they are Fighting Defensively and striking the floor, the nearest rock, a nearby chair, etc... to get into fighting stance.
Actually, that is completely within the rules.
You don't even have to "strike the floor" You just have to declare that you're taking an "attack action" to gain the benefit.
Which means, you lose out on the option of a double move.
Robert
I have discussed power attack on my own thread already, and things are already bad enough. Have you ready the new vision yet? Melee types that are not barbarians already have about a cap of about 11 bonus damage no matter what they do other than getting a level adjust.
In my opinion, they have been knee caped too much as is, and this 1:1 is just ludicrous.
Sorry Mr. Minmax, but allowing 2:1 was the worst change made to the original 3.0 Power Attack feat.
Consider the following even by your own example:
- I Power Attack for 11 points (still having lots of BAB/Strength/Magic/etc to work with, or using some other method of cheesing up to-hit bonus).
- I then double that power attack which goes to 22 points.
- I then cheese out ways to get a "doubling" effect on the damage or stack up ridiculous number of "full-BAB" (or nearly so) attacks.
This was a major problem in 3.5 and it's one of the things that just can't go on. Cap it at 5, and if you want more, PAY for it by buying properly balanced feats rather than one cheesy broken uberfeat.
I don't find it very polite with your accusations. Thats 22 extra points at level 20!! That means you taking a -11 to hit. I think at that level that is nothing, and it remains nothing through out all 20 levels. Don't go labeling you don't even know me so STFU.