zwyt |
I was just wondering why staffs had their charges reduced to 10 charges. I see that they are basically rechargeable in a limited fashion now but I was thinking that going down to 10 charges was a bit drastic of a reduction from the 50 that is in the DMG. I was thinking that it might be better to have Staffs have 20-25 Charges to start and then let the spell caster burn as many spell slots per day as they want instead of just the one to keep that staff charged with the understanding that whatever power they use to feed t he staff is power that is not going to be available that day for casting spells, except the ones in the staff. If we put limits to the number of charges that can be added per day how about a number more like 5 or even 2. Is there something I am missing? Would this overpower things? I really don't see why because the spell caster would really just be trading off spell slots that then wouldn't be usable for that day in order to use them through an item. It is true that they could store them up in the staff but then the staff would only ever hold a maximum of 25 charges. Or we could even stay with the 10 charge limit and make it where a caster can imbue the staff with at least 2-3 charges per day instead of just one. Magic items especially staffs should give you a bit more of an edge than the 10 charge limit with the ability to only add one per day. What does everyone else think about this. Of course I am the DM who usually doesn't have much of a problem with things that others say are over powered. :)
Charles
MisterSlanky |
I kind of like the new 10 charge limit. It's a nice blend of common enough to be useful, but uncommon enough to not be used every single fight and require a little tactical thinking on when using the staff is appropriate. Basically I disagree that 10 charges doesn't give you enough edge, I believe it gives you tons of edge (up to what could be considered 10 free spells, which is quite a bit) that just require some more thought to use than simply "I use my staff again because I have so many charges in it I never have to worry about running out."
I threw together a very low level staff for my level 5 campaign. It has two level one spells, one which requires 3 charges to use, the other that uses 2. So far the character has used the charges when needed, and has felt that the item is useful without being overly powerful. It's saved his butt on more than one occasion, and it's nice that the wizard has to spend some downtime if he wants to regain a little of his power.
*shrug*
I think your comment that you're a DM who likes the more powerful game is what's driving this. I tend towards more mid-level magic gaming (I'm not the biggest fan of low fantasy) and I think the new staff charge system works really well in that niche.
Selgard |
Giving staves 10 charges while allowing it to be fairly easily recharged allows the players to use Staves to some effect without them taking over for spell casting.
Staves use all the stats of the caster when using it. They are more than just wands with more spells in them. a 10th level mage casting Fireball from a staff gets more than a level 5 mage would.
A 25 or 50 charge staff that's fully rechargeable would effectively make Fireball a once an encounter or once a day ability that really didn't cost the party anything.
Their goal, I think, was to give staves more punch than they used to. I know in the campaigns I've been in, even when I've been a caster, staves are seen as nothing more than wooden stacks of GP ready to be sold. The groups I'm in tend to view charged items as less than useful and tend to ditch all but the rare wand or staff. This change well go a *long* *long* way towards fixing that.
A Staff of Fire just wasn't worth the money before. Now spending that gold (whether to keep an item found, to make one, or to buy one fresh) becomes a permanent option for the character. A very good change, IMO.
But 25-50 charges would make them Too good, I believe.
As for burning spells to power it: Isn't that was that staff does they brought out in the MIC? Eldritch staff or some such? Attune to one and you can burn your spell slots to cast its spells?
zwyt |
Hmmmm ok, I was just thinking through it actually y ou guys have brought up some good points and rather quickly I might add. I have to say the more thought I give it the more reasonable the 10 charge limit sounds. I guess I was mostly reacting because it was such a difference from the standard 3.5 rule. Though if someone got into a tough battle and blew all of the charges in their staff of fire it would take 10 full days to get it charged back up to full again. I suppose that is better than than blowing your 50 charges and then having a useless but pretty stick lying around eh? :)
Charles
DracoDruid |
I have the books not here ATM.
Did they somehow changed the recharging stuff?
As I remember you had to use one of YOUR highest level spells to recharge ONE charge.
That's somehow stupid.
But I think they changed it to one Spell Slot equall to the highest level spell INSIDE THE STAFF.
If not, DO IT!
EDIT:
Only one charge per day is a bit too restrictive, while I can understand the reason.
Solution: Every charge renewed takes up one spell level higher than normal (cumulative).
Example: Staff of Example (lets say it's highest spell is level 5).
Recharging the first charge uses up a 5th level slot.
If you wan't to recharge one additional slot the same day, this charge would use up a 6th level slot.
The third charge at the same day would use up a 7th level slot
...
What do you think?
Selgard |
imo, a charge a day is fairly reasonable.
The time to recharge is valuable in that it keeps the staff from being something you burn through willy-nilly. It's still a tactical decision. Burn a charge? Or don't? Without being such a penalty that you never us it, or such a boon that you always use it.
10 charges means that you will almost always have it full at the beginning of any given adventure. Anytime you go to bed with a spell level unused you can dump it into the staff, so anytime you have 10 free days (going somewhere by ship or caravan? unless you battle everyday, some days will be recharge days) the staff is fully charged.
This makes it useful but not too useful.
At least, imo.
You definately want to avoid the situation where at the end of the day you can pass the staff around the campfire and have everyone dump a spell into it.
-S
hogarth |
10 charges means that you will almost always have it full at the beginning of any given adventure. Anytime you go to bed with a spell level unused you can dump it into the staff, so anytime you have 10 free days (going somewhere by ship or caravan? unless you battle everyday, some days will be recharge days) the staff is fully charged.
Actually, it says that you can only charge a staff "each morning, when a spellcaster prepares spells". So technically you can't use "unused" spell levels to charge it.
Selgard |
No joke? I missed that. Sorry!
Even still, in the last campaign we were on we spent *six months* on a ship. SIX MONTHS.
Ouch. Wish I could have recharged a staff (or dozen) instead of sittin there prayin i didn't get sea sick.
There are some times when the PC's just have time off. Regardless of when the rechargetime is set for, the items will be recharged, usually off camera. (the PC's Can do it on camera if they choose, of course..)
This makes the items typically fully charged at the beginning if any given adventure so that instead of 50 charges they are done, it's 10 charges per adventure that the players can use. It makes some of the higher priced staves actually worth the price. At least, imo :)
-S
DogBone |
Perhaps recharging could/should be something like recharging 1 charge per 3 caster levels. It would be apart of a wizard's spell preperation, sacrificing a spell slot for each charge gained: one slot per level, from highest to lowest. I.E: a 9th level wizard recharges his Staff of Fire with 3 charges. He would have to burn one 5th, one 4th, and one 3rd level spell to do it.
This would also further instill the trend that a more powerful wizard gets more out of a staff.
Alternatively, there could be a new feat, like Staff Mastery, that allows any spellcaster who takes it to recharge their staff WITHOUT burning spell slots during spell preperation, or at least reduce the number of spells lost. The staff feeds off of ambient magical energy the wizard casts off during his prep time.
Just an idea.
DogBone
Tarlane |
As I remember you had to use one of YOUR highest level spells to recharge ONE charge.
That's somehow stupid.But I think they changed it to one Spell Slot equall to the highest level spell INSIDE THE STAFF.
One way to look at this is that technically the benefit goes both ways. And 8th level wizard who gets his hands on a staff with 5th level spells can drop 4th level spells(his highest) to recharge it, when otherwise he couldn't recharge it until he leveled again.
I think the reasoning behind using your highest level spell is because the staff grows with you. Its DCs and caster levels go up as you grow and thus it feeds off your potential rather then just what the staff itself contains.
Now, I could see rechargable wands where you could do something like that, put in new charges at that spell level and the wand casts and minimum caster level. But I think then the wand would be stepping too much on the staves toes again and I like the new mechanic for staves.
LazarX |
I preffer how the Staff of the Magi works on respect to that. 1 charge per spell level that you make it absorb. It helps to stop the 15 minutes-day if the spellcasters can use more magic per day.
That's how I'm going to put the staff rules and disregard anything different that comes in the books.
Of course there is the rather serious downside to charging it that way. Remember that the Staff of the Magi is unique in the way it recharges spells. mainly spells cast by another caster targeted at the wielder of the staff. I would hold this as a literal requirement.
Tervola |
I love the new staffs, but there are two things I would change.
First, the highest spell held on the staff could be hard on some casters. If a 6th level caster gets a staff that has one 4th level spell in it, even if it takes 3 charges to activate, he cannot recharge the staff. If it is changed to requires a total spell level equal to the highest level spell in the staff. If this seems too easy, then maybe a penalty for using more than one spell. If two spell used then it is highest level of staff +1, if 3 spells then highest level+2, and continue the series.
Secondly, there used to be a way for spell casters that memorize to keep some slots "open" and later in the day spend 15 minutes to memorize what they need. This gets away from the "each morning" requirement to something more like "unused spell slots." Your caster has open spells that are not being used, but can't use them in combat or to recharge the staff without the 15 minute prep time.
LazarX |
I love the new staffs, but there are two things I would change.
First, the highest spell held on the staff could be hard on some casters. If a 6th level caster gets a staff that has one 4th level spell in it, even if it takes 3 charges to activate, he cannot recharge the staff.
Maybe perhaps you're giving out an item that's higher than you should be giving for a character of that level? or perhaps the caster should just sweat out for that one level until he or she hits 7th.
Selgard |
What 6th level caster has access to a staff with 4th level spells in it?
Even assuming he does get one though, you are right- it can't be recharged for awhile. I would say thus is the "penalty" for getting access to a spell you can't yet cast.
Personally I really like Alpha 3's take on it.
You get 10 charges.
You hafta burn a spell slot = to the highest level spell in the staff to recharge it.
You get to recharge it once charge a day.
This keeps them useful, worth the cost, and very difficult to "abuse".