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From this weekend's game:
In this corner, weighing in at 9th level, Ysabeau, my wife's elf sorcerer 6/fighter 1/eldritch knight 2, a swashbuckling type with Agile Maneuvers, operating under enlarge person, total CMB +11.
And in this corner, weighing in at CR 5, a giant constrictor snake, total CMB +17, +19 for grappling (thanks to Improved Grapple, one of the two extra feats the snake got for its 11 HD).
Ysabeau, temporarily cut off from her companions, was attacked rather abruptly by the snake, but nevertheless managed to win initiative over it (not really hard, honestly). A scorching ray, fired in hopes of driving the snake off, proved largely ineffective, and the snake launched a bite attack at her. With the help of Ysabeau's enlarged -2 AC, and the fact that the attack occurred in the late afternoon, when her morning mage armor had worn off, the bite was successful, and the snake used its improved grab to immediately initate a grapple.
With a +19 bonus against a DC of 26, the snake had very little chance of failure; moreover, when it did successfully grapple, the hefty constrict damage meant that Ysabeau had taken 27 hit points of damage in the first round, well over half her total. Ysabeau tried another scorching ray, managing the Spellcraft check for casting while grappled with no difficulty, but the damage was still not enough to finish off the snake.
Since Ysabeau had not broken free, the snake's grapple check improved to +24, meaning that it only failed on a roll of 1 or 2; moreover, Ysabeau had 22 hit points left, and the snake's bite plus constrict damage was 2d8+20.
For the sake of my marriage, it's probably a very good thing I rolled a natural 1 on the snake's grapple check.
What's worth noting from all this, however, is that this 9th level character, with a respectable, if not overwhelming, CMB, was nevertheless very nearly killed by a grappling opponent with a CR 4 below her character level, and in fact lived only because of exceptional good luck. Even without Improved Grapple (if I had not given the snake an extra 2 feats), the outcome would have been little different. From where I'm sitting, grappling doesn't seem to have been weakened all that much at all...
That's the problem: if you're good enough at grappling that you can succeed 60% of the time, then your opponent will have no chance of escaping via a grapple check (Escape Artist works better).
But note that your wife would have been in bigger trouble in 3.5, since the snake would've had two grapple checks per round instead of one!
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That's the problem: if you're good enough at grappling that you can succeed 60% of the time, then your opponent will have no chance of escaping via a grapple check (Escape Artist works better).
Ironically, despite the fact that she is trained in Escape Artist, Ysabeau's odds would have been better trying to break the grapple rather than Escape it. Between being enlarged and being grappled, Ysabeau was at a -6 to her Dex, meaning her Escape Artist check was down to +5, and her CMB down to +8. The DC for the Escape Artist check would have been 27, which is flatly impossible; even though the DC for the CMB check would have been 32, she could have theoretically have rolled a nat 20...
As far as I can tell, Ysabeau took the best route she could, really, getting off 16d6 damage to the snake in two rounds, it just wasn't quite enough to kill the snake or get it to back off. (Once it blew its own grapple check, though, a crossbow shot from a party member finally drove it off.) under other circumstances, though, Escape Artist is indeed more effective - though I still wonder if it's effective enough...
But note that your wife would have been in bigger trouble in 3.5, since the snake would've had two grapple checks per round instead of one!
Oh, I'm in no way arguing that things are worse now, not at all. This post was mostly in response to arguments I have seen put forth here and there around the forums that suggest grappling monsters have been seriously nerfed in this edition. From my perspective, that really doesn't seem to be the case.
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From this weekend's game:
In this corner, weighing in at 9th level, Ysabeau, my wife's elf sorcerer 6/fighter 1/eldritch knight 2, a swashbuckling type with Agile Maneuvers, operating under enlarge person, total CMB +11.
For what it's worth - I've been advocating quite a bit that Large Sized (such as Ysbeau's character was) should be a +2 mod instead of 1 - my suggestion is that size categories in the multiples of 2.
It would have only made 1 point difference I know - but my point is that although the CMB is a great concept and i do enjoy it alot, I still think it's not perfect in the math (yet).
Your testimony is a good one however as to the effectiveness of a grappling monster.
My testimony was slightly different. An ogre barbarian that the party encountered went to bull rush the dwarven ranger back so that the ogre could get to the wizard in the back that had been peppering him with magic missles. The Ogre, a 4th level Barbarian (CR 7) with a 22 STR raged (26 str) with a CMB of +18 (8 str, 7 bab, 1 size, 2 Imp Bullrush)
Feeling pretty cocky that this would work, the ogre bullrushed. I rolled a 16 - total 34! HA! take that Dwarf!
The dwarf, 8th level ranger had 18 STR, and had taken Defensive Combat Maneuvers feat. (which I had forgotten), I asked him what the DC would be..... BAB 8 + Str 4 + dwarf 4 + feat 4 + base 15 = DC 35!
WHAT???
That raging hulking 26 Str large sized giant failed with a 16!!! Needed at least a 17 (20% success) against that ranger.....Dwarves are pretty hardy indeed - combined with that defensive feat - they're really hardy! I'm thinking the dwarven bonus needs to apply to Overrurn too, though. If Trip and Bullrush makes sense, so too does Overrun.
Robert
For what it's worth - I've been advocating quite a bit that Large Sized (such as Ysbeau's character was) should be a +2 mod instead of 1 - my suggestion is that size categories in the multiples of 2.It would have only made 1 point difference I know - but my point is that although the CMB is a great concept and i do enjoy it alot, I still think it's not perfect in the math (yet).
Note that your change would have made it worse for Ysabeau (since she was being grappled by a Huge creature).
I didn't consider that the "grappled" condition would reduce your Escape Artist check (or your CMB, if you took the feat Agile Maneuvers).
As far as people claiming that grappling monsters are weaker, that'll be true for monsters that used to have a roughly even chance at grappling (like chokers or maybe mind flayers). For monsters that used to be extremely strong grapplers, they'll be even stronger (although still limited to one grapple check per round).
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For what it's worth - I've been advocating quite a bit that Large Sized (such as Ysbeau's character was) should be a +2 mod instead of 1 - my suggestion is that size categories in the multiples of 2.Note that your change would have made it worse for Ysabeau (since she was being grappled by a Huge creature).
As far as people claiming that grappling monsters are weaker, that'll be true for monsters that used to have a roughly even chance at grappling (like chokers or maybe mind flayers). For monsters that used to be extremely strong grapplers, they'll be even stronger (although still limited to one grapple check per round).
Good point, Horgath - I didnt think about it from the Snake's perspective.
I agree that the biggest difference will the "one grapple" attempt per round - which does make a difference.
The use of the mechanic is still easier, more streamlined, and the conditions are more easily applied.
Robert