I recently posted a thread in the WotC 4e forums asking for thoughts on how to create the equivalent of the 3.x Leadership feat for 4e. I'd post the link except the WotC forums seem to be down right now.
Essentially, I posted my idea's stating that I'd like to make a balanced way to have cohorts/followers in 4e. Essentially, the followers would use the Minion mechanic for the followers. If they drop during a combat, they don't necessarily die, at the end of the encounter, they make a save versus death, with a bonus if there is a leader/cleric/healing potion/etc. Course it doesn't even need to be a feat, it could be a paragon path for example.
The general consensus I got over at the WotC forums was "Don't do it. Leadership feat in 3.x was horrible. There's no way to have a balanced version." That's not what I was looking for. Anyone here have any thoughts?
EDIT: Just checked, and looks like the WotC forums are back up. 4e Leadership Feat - idea's anyone?
I like the idea of using Paragon paths. It reminds of 2E cohorts/followers.
I never really liked how the Leadership feat was executed. I think there should be a Cohort option of some kind or other, whether a class feature or feat or paragon path, and followers should be completely separate. My rationale: a cohort can be fun and interesting to have at any level of play, but followers don't really make sense until the PCs are high level. Unless you're playing in a campaign that focuses on politics and large scale warfare, does it really matter if you have 100 1st level followers or 200 1st level followers? Most campaigns don't even have PCs in positions of significant prestige until 11th + level. Also, if the campaign starts or becomes focused on the details of politics, warfare and leadership, PCs shouldn't have to use a special character option just to participate in such a significant facet of the game. In other words, as soon as the PCs come into possession of a castle or tower or whatever, followers should come free as part of the package.
Anyway, back to cohorts. I personally don't like the idea of forcing a PC to wait until 11th level to gain one because you don't have to be a legend in order to have a side-kick; you just have to be a primary protagonist -- which all PCs are. I'd do cohorts like this:
Heroic Persona
Requirement: 3rd level
Benefit: You attract a loyal cohort of your level minus 2. This cohort follows the same rules as PCs except that they cannot gain or use Action Points and cannot use the Second Wind action. As you advance in levels, so does your cohort. (In other words, your cohort's level is always equal to your level minus 2.) Your cohort begins with 100 gp to spend on equipment, but after that you must equip your cohort with items and cash at your own expense. (DMs should not add treasure parcels to account for the presence of a cohort in the party.)
Of course this is unplaytested, so you should be ready to adjust the level difference up or down. But I suggest keeping it simple and setting the level requirement only for balance reasons. Oh yeah, and resist the urge to add a Cha requirement! It would just be arbitrary and rp-restrictive.
Hope that helps,
TS
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Essentially, I posted my idea's stating that I'd like to make a balanced way to have cohorts/followers in 4e. Essentially, the followers would use the Minion mechanic for the followers. If they drop during a combat, they don't necessarily die, at the end of the encounter, they make a save versus death, with a bonus if there is a leader/cleric/healing potion/etc. Course it doesn't even need to be a feat, it could be a paragon path for example.
The general consensus I got over at the WotC forums was "Don't do it. Leadership feat in 3.x was horrible. There's no way to have a balanced version." That's not what I was looking for. Anyone here have any thoughts?
While I agree that it is a horrible feat, I think the easiest thing to do would be to look at how they handle Mounts in 4E (p. 46 DMG). If a follower is within -2 to +1 of the characters level, the DM should add additional monsters equal to the XP value of the follower but not award extra xp for them.
The REAL problem is dealing with the advancement of the follower, both in levels and equipment. If the PC gives equipment to his cohort, he's weakening himself and contributing less, but if the cohort gets an equal share, the player is effectively getting to play two PCs. The best solution might be to cap the max level of the cohort at -3 levels behind the PCs, so that he doesn't necessarily impact the difficulty of the encounters one way or another and he can get by on the hand-me-downs from the PC, without weakening him signifcantly.
I would make Leadership at least a paragon feat, with an improved one that crops up at epic tier. It gives a good basis for when to seriously ramp up a follower's capacity. What I was able to come up with while trying to work out a mechanic for having a cohort ended up going in several directions.
Pets, for example, might have a passive benefit as a mount does if you have Mounted Combat. Basically, the pet is assumed to be with you at all times and gives you something like, a bonus to attack or damage (like how Two Weapon Fighting works). You have a dog? Great, it gives you a +1 bonus to damage. A wolf might roll on a prone followup attack. A bear might be able to grab a foe for you.
I also kicked around the idea of having a pet that had an assigned role. For example, a guard dog might also grant you a bonus to your AC and Reflex Defenses.
One problem that cropped up was actions. A pet could potentially double your actions in a round. In the above example, a bear cannot occupy your space, and it essentially grants you at least one extra attack per round (it can grabble opponents and crush them). So, you'd have to look at powers that have similar mechanics to get a rough idea. The cleric has plenty of powers that summon monsters, many that cost at least a minor action to direct.
The bear might work better if the mechanics required you to burn a minor action to direct the bear to attack someone for you. This doesnt make a lot of sense for some animals, like a guard dog, that frankly shouldnt need encouragement to save your ass even if for some reason you dont have time to devote to bossing it around.
This gets even harder to justify if you consider a humanoid cohort that can think and act on its own. This is where it gets easier to grant passive bonuses. You have a follower thats also a fighter? Great, he sticks around with you and gives you a bonus to attack and damage rolls, since we just assume that he follows your lead or something (many players have their minions go on their initiative count anyway). What if he decides to run off and assist one of your friends, or gets pushed away from you?
I think in this case its best to assume a minion. He gets a move and basic attack action, and thats it. You dont need to boss your cohort around, and that at least reduces the complexity of your guy without having him being utterly worthless. As a minion, he goes down in one hit, but my thoughts were to have him basically never truly die: you can spend a healing surge at the end of the encounter to revive him, or he has his own pool of surges for a given day before finally kicking the bucket.
To me, this is more than worth a feat, which generally gives you something like +1 to damage with a weapon, or another small benefit. A cohort has more potential to grant combat advantage to you or an ally, do more damage than the meager +1, and even allow you to keep participating in battle if you keel over (and possibly have a backup character if you die).
You could extend the idea of minion damage a bit further and have other rider effects come with the basic attack. A wolf pet, for example, might do set damage but also have a chance to knock a guy prone. The bear could make a followup as well to immobilize a bad guy. Simple, yet effective.
3rd edition never did sort out a good way to make characters that fight by proxy balanced. I'm not exactly eager to try it again. At the very least, it's unfair to the other players, because somebody controlling two characters takes twice as long.
Another interesting example of why 4e is good and bad.
Certainly it was a rule that improves the game's playability and balance -- cohorts/henchmen have always been a game mechanic that was more broken than not.
But they are such a staple of heroic fantasy, and a part of the game that enriched (though simultaneously complicating) play.
House rules, here I come again...
And I'll say (off the cuff) that I'd simply make Cohort a paragon-level feat. We'd sort out details during play.
A sketch for feats for Henchmen and Cohorts.
Cohort
Prerequisite: Henchman
Benefit: Your henchman will accompany you on adventures, acting as a full partner but under the same tactical limitations. A cohort expects twice as much monetary reward as a henchman.
Henchman
Prerequisite: Level 4
Benefit: You have a faithful henchman who will accompany you on adventures. While unwilling to take full part in combat, the henchman will look out for your interests. Typical tasks for a henchman include guarding the camp and mounts, scouting, performing rituals, and other important but only moderately dangerous tasks that do not include full battles. A henchman will fight if attacked, but will not attack on his own or accompany you in an aggressive plan. He or she expects a quarter share of money and an occasional hand-me-down magic item. A henchman is an NPC two levels lower than yours of a class and race agreed upon with the DM. He or she advances in levels at the same time you do. If your henchman dies, you lose the benefit of the feat until you next advance in level.
When you are around and your henchman is forced into combat, a henchman lacks initiative and either stands still or remains next to you. When you stand next to your henchman and take a move action, the henchman may also take a move action to remain next to you. Once per round, as a minor action, you can order your henchman to take a standard action.
A sketch for feats for Henchmen and Cohorts.
Cohort
Prerequisite: Henchman
Benefit: Your henchman will accompany you on adventures, acting as a full partner but under the same tactical limitations. A cohort expects twice as much monetary reward as a henchman.
What does "Acting as a full partner" means?
What does "Acting as a full partner" means?A sketch for feats for Henchmen and Cohorts.
Cohort
Prerequisite: Henchman
Benefit: Your henchman will accompany you on adventures, acting as a full partner but under the same tactical limitations. A cohort expects twice as much monetary reward as a henchman.
I think he means something like "full fledged team member" (ie, he gets to wear the nifty outfits and hats like everyone else) where as a Henchmen is more like Nodwick.
Thank you all for your thoughts and ideas. I knew it was smart to post here in addition to the WotC boards.
Antioch, I like your idea's the most. I think I'll be leaning toward your posting more.