I´m running the SCAP right now (Lords of Oblivion) and face the following problem:
Since their experiences in Karran-Kural (hard fights), the PCs make a retreat to rest and regain their spells after almost every one or two encounters. They have access to teleportation magic so it´s no problem for them to return to a save place as they wish. And since the encounters are kinda waiting for them, i don´t know how to handle this well, but I find it very frustrating, for it takes a lot of speed and thrill out of the game.
I tried to adjust the following encounters, making them harder, let the enemy be more prepared or let their behaviour have an impact on their reputation (e.g. bards singing sneering songs), but it don´t really work.
I´m sure this has been addressed before, but yet i would be grateful for some advices or links.
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If you wanted to be nasty, you could have dimensional locking to prevent them going anywhere. And the bad guys are not statically waiting there to die after they find the outer rooms of their lairs laid waste. The baddies could scry them, find out where they hide, and teleport in themselves to bash the weakened PCs, fortify their positions, or just get the hell away to a more secure location. I would think a lot about how the monsters would react to this piecemeal approach, what resources and alliances they might have to thwart PCs who attack over a series of days.
But ultimately, it is only sensible for the PCs to be reasonably fresh. The problem might be the tough nature of the modules - it might be better to make the modules less tough so they don't feel the need to recupaerate so much. What would you prefer - PCs teleporting away after every fight or dead PCs?
I would think a lot about how the monsters would react to this piecemeal approach, what resources and alliances they might have to thwart PCs who attack over a series of days.
i tried to let the enemies react like this, but in the end it made the players act even more careful.
Furthermore, the "bad guys" are currently hiding or otherwise "occupied" (by rituals e.g.)...
it might be better to make the modules less tough so they don't feel the need to recupaerate so much.
i tried this but although their group is quite powerful, they still expect "the big fight" after every corner.
The Problem is, even some of the players (namely the fighters)think that the party acts too fearful, but they are outvoted most of the time...
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you can always repopulate the places they've been so they have to 're-clear them'...and set up an ambush at the place they teleported away. I wouldnt be too hard on them if they are moving forward as long as they are exopending the majority of their resources before resting again...now if they are trying to keep from even being below half of existing spells and healing and such...then Id throw the kitchen sink at them.
What I do when people attack and retreat without clearing the place out is set up some nasty traps. not "blades out the wall" but "feet glued to floor while air elementals shoot lightning at you." If the enemies in your games arn't dynamic and actually do things to keep themselves from getting slaughtered, D+D is no better than a video game.
If the enemies in your games arn't dynamic and actually do things to keep themselves from getting slaughtered, D+D is no better than a video game.
It´s quite a delicate situation, as their foe (V.) has retreated in fear of the PCs and is performing a demonic ritual, which should be completed at the same moment the PCs storm the room (showdown effect).
I considered letting the PCs miss that showdown if they need too much rest, and let some nasty things happen instead, but that would destroy some story klimax.Maybe they just meet some inconvenience if they come home too often, having their home attacked e.g.
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Nothing says the enemies have to teleport into your players' base while they're there. Have a group waiting to teleport there until the heroes start attacking nearby. Then when the players go home to take a smoke/drink break they get an unpleasant surprise. Can't remember which book it was in but there were a couple spells that either shunted and/or delayed incoming teleports and warned their casters at the same time.
you can always repopulate the places they've been so they have to 're-clear them'...and set up an ambush at the place they teleported away. I wouldnt be too hard on them if they are moving forward as long as they are exopending the majority of their resources before resting again...now if they are trying to keep from even being below half of existing spells and healing and such...then Id throw the kitchen sink at them.
I like the ambush but not the repopulate option. The ambush scenario simply involves the bad guys reacting to the fact that they are under attack. Repopulating turns the adventure into an XP mill. Worse yet your creating uninteresting encounters, basically just more fights over the same boring terrain. I've done this and don't recommend it, your burning game time but failing to advance the story.
My solutions are as follows:
- Try and consider what the defenders might do to deal with the incursions. I don't want to add a bunch of XP to the adventure but the bad guys should be better prepared. That helps the PCs understand that there is at least some cost for retreating.
- Historically the tactic that has been most successful for me has been, When possible, have the bad guys judge when its time to get out of dodge. They take their treasure with them. This means that PCs that are too slow only win a partial victory (the BBBEG escapes but his current mission is a bust). This is not always viable since sometimes the location is something the bad guys would never abandon but when possible its been very effective in my games.
My players have no fear of a few more baddies - I'm just feeding them XP after all. But they hate loosing treasure and they dislike it if the BBEG gets away reducing the level of their victory and taking the value of his XP with him.
Just making the adventure a little tougher does zip, they'll just pop in and out more often. If you want to stop them teleporting you can't threaten to give them more XP. No at that point if you want to use the stick then you must really use it - when they teleport back in you must kill their characters to send them the message. No going soft and giving them easy resurrections either - they need to be choosing between loosing a lot of money or rolling up whole new characters. I'll point out that I generally feel that this cure is worse then the problem in the first place.
- The other angle I do work with is something of a carrot approach. When your PCs show up on the scene and the baddies have no idea your here you have a one time period of easier fights. Bad guys are much less prepared. Often sleeping or spread out - maybe some not even wearing armour. Essentially PC parties are a lot like commando's and they gain a big advantage if they hit from surprise and hit hard. Once they have given up the element of surprise they need to work harder for the same XP and treasure. I've had more success with making encounters easier with surprise then I have had with making them harder without it. Easier encounters encourage the PCs to press on to get the next easy encounter, hard ones encourage the PCs to run away even more often.
Maybe have one of the baddies from group A run out to warn group B in the middle of the fight. Then the PCs have to chase down the A-guy to clear the encounter, and that leads to the B-group. Then have A-guy or a B-guy run to group C.
The running fight can lead through a bunch of encounters in a row, and if the pursuit isn't successful, the BBEG will be able to get away/finish his ritual sooner, etc.
Or house rule it just takes an hour or so for spellchuckers to get (most of) their spells back or something. (Kind of like 4th Edition encounter powers).
The best solution is to add a clock. Let a minion (or note or some other gimmick) let slip that the big ritual ends at day/time X. If the PC's don't stop it in time, well, bad things happen (especially in SCAP).
thanks for the replies so far.
I like the ideas involving missed chances and lost treasures. I don´t like punishments like killing their chars or making next encounters harder (because i dislike giving out more XP), although i did the latter on several occasions just because it sounded logical for the baddies to reinforce their posts.
Best results i had with demons summoning more of their kind every time the PCs retreated: 1st fight two demons, second attempt 4 demons, 3rd attempt 5 of them.
The players realized it would be harder and harder to overcome the enemy, but they received no extra XP for the summoned demons.
If it's a recurring villain, it's a good possibility that they would have noticed the PCs teleport tactics and would prepare accordingly. Having low resources has usually encouraged my players to think creatively and do things they normally wouldn't and has lead to some very entertaining game sessions.
Having low resources has usually encouraged my players to think creatively and do things they normally wouldn't and has lead to some very entertaining game sessions.
that´s exactly my experience, and that´s why i´m that tired of retreating players (and the reason i don´t like warlocks that much, for that matter).
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If the enemies in your games arn't dynamic and actually do things to keep themselves from getting slaughtered, D+D is no better than a video game.It´s quite a delicate situation, as their foe (V.) has retreated in fear of the PCs and is performing a demonic ritual, which should be completed at the same moment the PCs storm the room (showdown effect).
I considered letting the PCs miss that showdown if they need too much rest, and let some nasty things happen instead, but that would destroy some story klimax.Maybe they just meet some inconvenience if they come home too often, having their home attacked e.g.
Maybe you should let V complete his ritual and do terrible things to the multiverse. The PCs might be taking their approach because there are no real consequences to their softly-softly approach. They take three days to do the dungeon, and coincidentally that is how long the ritual takes. You might want to consider rejigging the whole thing so they can deal with the pressing matter of the demon horde they let loose through their over-caution and negligence, and then finish off BBEG at the end, or the other way round, or some permutation, but in any case show them that a room a day won't cut it. Of course, that might be more work, but maybe fun anyway - reacting to what the PCs do can be quite invigorating I find, provided I have time to think it through and react appropriately. Sticking to the pre-arranged climax doesn't seem the right thing to do. And anyway, you can probably have it anyway - just a bit later, and slightly rejigged but essentially the same.
Hit em with the kitchen sink!
If you present the PC's with a time-based situation(which is what you are doing) then you should not be afraid to let it actually happen. I'm sure that your big showdown is planned to the detail and that you'd like your players to actually go through with it but it is not worth the trouble they're giving you now. For that specific reason I never script encounters too much unless I am absolutely certain that my players will be doing it the way I imagined, which doesn't happen a lot. I'll have the specifics of the encounter listed qua baddies, loot and general tactics but that's about it.
Just kindly remind your players that the clock is ticking and if they do not act in an expedient manner...unleash all hell and let them suffer.
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Do the PCs have any friends? Family? A town they frequent? Bad guys don't need to teleport to the PCs' location and wreak havoc.
Or perhaps they teleport into the castle of the king disguised as the PCs and stage an attempt on the rightful monarch. Nothing like charges of regicide hanging over their heads to get a group of adventurers up and moving.
Edit: Given that it's SCAP, the newly elected Lord Mayor should be the first victim. Then Jenya. Then the orphanage should burn down. And so on and so on in turn, until every friend or ally they have is toast. "Take all the time you want, the bad guys have things to keep themselves busy with."
Hit em with the kitchen sink!
If you present the PC's with a time-based situation(which is what you are doing) then you should not be afraid to let it actually happen. I'm sure that your big showdown is planned to the detail and that you'd like your players to actually go through with it but it is not worth the trouble they're giving you now. For that specific reason I never script encounters too much unless I am absolutely certain that my players will be doing it the way I imagined, which doesn't happen a lot. I'll have the specifics of the encounter listed qua baddies, loot and general tactics but that's about it.
Just kindly remind your players that the clock is ticking and if they do not act in an expedient manner...unleash all hell and let them suffer.
My experience of SCAP was that it was so damnably hard for Core characters that the in-and-out playstyle was the only viable response. If you enforce the time limits strictly, you simply present the players with a problem they cannot solve.
This would probably be different for heavily optimized splatbook PCs, though.
I've come to feel in recent years that excessive difficulty is at the root of a lot of my gaming problems--even in cases where the PCs seem quite successful. If the scenarios are consistently too hard for Core PCs, you end up with parties full of splatbook optimized PCs, as well as with in-and-out tactics and other forms of minimaxing. Often, I believe, the players don't particularly want to be doing that--but the alternative of PC death is worse. I know that as a player, I would rather have a little buffer and be able to roleplay without constant terror of the TPK, rather than being at the edge of the PCs' capabilities all the time, which leaves me inclined not to do anything that could impact effectiveness.
If I was involved with SCAP again I'd want to run it at +2 to +4 levels above the listed ones. Then it would be entirely reasonable, I think, for there to be real consequences for PC failure to get things done quickly.
We did _Speaker in Dreams_ as a side adventure in SCAP. It's written for 7ths but none of our GMs would ever run it; the consensus was that it was not going to be any fun. During SCAP we did it with a double-sized party of 9ths, but we treated the town's difficulties realistically--if the events described were allowed to continue, the town would be ruined. The PCs did the whole thing in one day, and I enjoyed it immensely. I would never, ever consent to do it with four 7ths as written, though: it's so hard, you'd either go away to rest and let the town die, or die yourselves.
You can get a feedback loop in D&D where the players optimize their characters and/or tactics because they think the scenario is too hard, then the GM makes the scenario harder as a reaction to the optimized PCs, then.... As a player I hate this; it eventually ruins the game for me. So as a GM, if I had any suspicion that the optimization was a response to difficulty, I'd never consider making the game *more* difficult. I have had better luck making it *less* difficult and pointing this out to the players. Often players are willing to change their play style somewhat if they don't think it will have horrible consenquences. But who wants to play more realistically, if it guarantees a TPK?
Mary
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Do they always retreat to the same place?
If so, have the bad guys scry them, and lie in wait for their next fight. When the group comes back, lighten the fight a bit...just long enough to keep the group around long enough for the enemy to teleport to the group's "lair" and lay an ambush for them.
Alternatively, have the bad guys telport to their "lair" and change it. If it's significantly different, the PCs will have a harder time telporting there and may wind up somewhere less fun. You could also have the bad-guys change up their place making teleporting back more difficult. Better yet! Have them scry where the group always teleports to, and mock up a chamber nearby that matches the room EXACTLY. Nothing worse than missing your teleport and going somewhere you didn't expect.
Anticipate teleport is another good way to go, as is having your wizards prepare scry and immediately after the group teleports away, then have your casters use their prepared teleport to follow them (our DM did this to us recently).
My experience of SCAP was that it was so damnably hard for Core characters that the in-and-out playstyle was the only viable response. If you enforce the time limits strictly, you simply present the players with a problem they cannot solve.
That´s what happened earlier in the SCAP with our last GM, he used the "Nabthataron"-Event to wipe out the group. We were fully prepared and didn´t stand a chance, for he used the demons powers to full effect.
So in the end this event made the players (including me) maximizing their characters powers, using all the splat books just to stand a chance next time.When i took the chair of the DM, i had to deal with this problem.
Ironically, the former DM is now the most careful player...
Do the PCs have any friends? Family? A town they frequent? Bad guys don't need to teleport to the PCs' location and wreak havoc.
Edit: Given that it's SCAP, the newly elected Lord Mayor should be the first victim. Then Jenya. Then the orphanage should burn down. And so on and so on in turn, until every friend or ally they have is toast. "Take all the time you want, the bad guys have things to keep themselves busy with."
Concerning the SCAP:
i recently started making the tax collectors get more and more greedy and the mercenaries, who aided the town guard, causing more and more trouble.So sooner or later the PCs will be really pissed off, especially when their precious dragon hoard is being confiscated while they are underway and hopefully press harder to stop the one behind all of that.
I also considered the ritual to be completed when they advance too slow, the results could be interesting...
As for all the ideas concerning teleport, the recent event takes place within (or under the) town, so the PCs (who at this time are the mightiest faction in town) don´t have to teleport at all.
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I would think a lot about how the monsters would react to this piecemeal approach, what resources and alliances they might have to thwart PCs who attack over a series of days.
i tried to let the enemies react like this, but in the end it made the players act even more careful.
Furthermore, the "bad guys" are currently hiding or otherwise "occupied" (by rituals e.g.)...
it might be better to make the modules less tough so they don't feel the need to recupaerate so much.
i tried this but although their group is quite powerful, they still expect "the big fight" after every corner.
The Problem is, even some of the players (namely the fighters)think that the party acts too fearful, but they are outvoted most of the time...
Give your villains a "strike force" that hounds the PCs. Whenever they try to rest, the get awakened in the middle of the night before they can recharge (or, if they don't post a guard, killed in their sleep). And keep the pressure on. It sounds like you don't want them taking things for granted, so don't let them. If you go for two entire weeks of game time either fatigued or exhausted and unable to recover your spells, you'll learn very quickly that your foes are not screwing around. Whenever they try to recruit help, it's assassinated before they can do anything. Take away their gear, friends, and sleep. Once they're sufficiently ragged, they'll grasp the seriousness, die, or both.
Disclaimer: do this ONLY if the PCs are complaining about how the game is "too easy". If they're having a blast with things the way they are, let them continue having a blast!
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1. Don't forget to make them roll for every Teleport. There's a chance of failure for a reason. Have a couple difficult encounters written up for when the Teleport goes astray.
2. Don't punish the players for strategic thinking, but don't be afraid to run out the clock if there's a deadline.
3. Magic exploding wards are not that hard to set if your villains have spellcasting. The PCS keep teleporting to the same room? If it was my lair, I would booby trap that room.
One of the easiest ways to get them to push forward harder:
Every time they (the PC's) retreat and rest for more then you would like have some of the enemies say: "Screw you guys, I'm going home."
This causes two things
1) It removes some of the enemies so that they can push farther forward next time.
2) Those same enemies that left took most (if not all) of the treasure with them.
1. Don't forget to make them roll for every Teleport. There's a chance of failure for a reason. Have a couple difficult encounters written up for when the Teleport goes astray.
the chances of teleport failure are quite slim, if they know the location.
2. Don't punish the players for strategic thinking, but don't be afraid to run out the clock if there's a deadline.
i don´t want to punish them for strategic thinking, but for beeing too careful and nervous. - And i try to do this without making them even more nervous.
But by now a fiendisch plan is festering in my mind, combining many loose ends to one huge culmination, putting all of their reputation as heroes at stake and forcing them to end this chapter asap *HARR HARR*
1. Don't forget to make them roll for every Teleport. There's a chance of failure for a reason. Have a couple difficult encounters written up for when the Teleport goes astray.
the chances of teleport failure are quite slim, if they know the location.
i don´t want to punish them for strategic thinking, but for beeing too careful and nervous. - And i try to do this without making them even more nervous.
In that case things like teleport failure are exactly the *wrong* solution. If the PCs know they may fail a teleport and have a hard encounter, they can't afford to push hard in the current scenario--they have to keep some stuff in reserve! So they'll be even more cautious.
If you want them to be bolder, I don't know of a better solution than giving them some easy and successful scenarios. Perhaps ones with time limits, but definitely ones where success is clearly in their reach. This type of manuver helped salvage our failing SCAP campaign (temporarily, alas)--the GM ran a module meant for lower-level PCs to allow the PCs to build up some self-confidence, and also practice with their abilities.
It may be that your PCs are now powerful enough that they don't have to be so careful--but the players don't know it yet! A relatively easy scenario could help them realize.
Mary
If you want them to be bolder, I don't know of a better solution than giving them some easy and successful scenarios. Perhaps ones with time limits, but definitely ones where success is clearly in their reach.
It may be that your PCs are now powerful enough that they don't have to be so careful--but the players don't know it yet! A relatively easy scenario could help them realize.Mary
I already gave them a bunch of easy encounters, the Brass Trumpet was a piece of cake, they kicked Jils ass in one round (dominate person) and after the events in House Rhiavadi they are acting in town in a way that it is clear they know that no other faction can be much of a danger for them.
They also know their group is extremely efficient, dispite some character deaths once in a while...I think some of the players just want to be fully prepared at all times for the next "big event" they know is coming, but they don´t know when and where to expect it.
Edit:
Have you made it clear to the players that you're slightly tired of this 'clear a room at a time then retreat', and that the villains are going to start reacting exceptionally intelligently to these incursions?
i made it quite clear, but with little effect.
I think some of the players just want to be fully prepared at all times for the next "big event" they know is coming, but they don´t know when and where to expect it.
Smart players.
I get most of my player kills when my players screw up and get careless. Cocky and complacent are the biggest killers (well Greeds way up their too) but I've got them from a verity of angles. Basically if their not at or very near full hps their in the danger zones and its just possible I'll find a way to screw them.
If it's a recurring villain, it's a good possibility that they would have noticed the PCs teleport tactics and would prepare accordingly. Having low resources has usually encouraged my players to think creatively and do things they normally wouldn't and has lead to some very entertaining game sessions.
I agree.
i made it quite clear, but with little effect.Edit:
Have you made it clear to the players that you're slightly tired of this 'clear a room at a time then retreat', and that the villains are going to start reacting exceptionally intelligently to these incursions?
Then the next time they try to leave in the middle of a game,either tell them it's not an option, or up stat the encounter that they are comming back to, to make it two or three times harder than it would have been if they just drove forward.
Another option is a teleport warp. Something that redirects their teleport and puts them in a bad place. After a while, they will get the picture. Remember that this whole gaming thing is a two way street. if they aren't going to help you tell the story the way it is most logical for it to be told, then let them suffer the logical consequences.
I like the idea of having half the dungeon staff clearing out with their treasure (especially if the players realize that's what happened). A preferred option for me, though, is to realize that the PCs only get one shot at picking off the opposition one by one. After that first foray, when the dungeon dwellers have had a chance to talk to each other, it's doubtful they're going to split up again.
The party might get a couple teleports, but by the third invasion, I'd expect to see every single monster that isn't specifically locked in a room to be throwing down with the PCs on their return trip.
Fighting a wizard, a bone naga, and a dracolich all together in one room will quickly teach them the advantages of pressing on. As an added bonus, it won't give any extra XP either.
Speaking of which, it's worth mentioning that a being's ability to summon help (such as demons and wizards) are included in their XP value and the summoned creatures don't grant additional XP. So if you have a demon who spends a day or so gating in Vrocks...well, that's just a harder fight with no extra XP.
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Fighting a wizard, a bone naga, and a dracolich all together in one room will quickly teach them the advantages of pressing on. As an added bonus, it won't give any extra XP either.
I've done similar to this, giving plenty of in game tips that it was due to their slowness....
room 1: empty, but includes mush dead dragon scales. and evidence of a dragon treasure being pulled off.
room 2: easy to capture 2 hobgoblins... ect sitting about talking about how the extra time allowed the master to team up with the dracolith in the past room. And that if the PCs leave again he'll have time to strike a deal with (X monster in a room after the climax that isn't explored or commented on)
room 3: dracolich, BBEG, and anyone else the BBEG has made deals with
room4 (if room 2 not headed): a recently uncovered lair of creature mentioned in room 2.
in this way, they KNOW that it is thier decision which is making the final battle harder. if you are only moving monsters already present from room 1-4 to room 5 you may prevent a level-up they would have gained in between by not allowing them the loot/xp until after the BBEG fight. Since you arn't adding to the number of bad guys, they don't get extra XP.
After that first foray, when the dungeon dwellers have had a chance to talk to each other, it's doubtful they're going to split up again.The party might get a couple teleports, but by the third invasion, I'd expect to see every single monster that isn't specifically locked in a room to be throwing down with the PCs on their return trip.
i´m absolutely no fan of room-by-room dungeon dwelling, so my homemade dungeons always
a) make senseb) react directly to the players actions
-i remember them once camping within a cloister beeing invaded at that time -a fact the players didn´t fully recognize: two hours later the PCs lair was surrounded by every single, fully prepared foe within 2 miles... an epic battle that was.
The problem in my current campaign is that i don´t have the time to adjust the adventure path too much, so i have to stick with the proposed encounter settings...
Fighting a wizard, a bone naga, and a dracolich all together in one room will quickly teach them the advantages of pressing on. As an added bonus, it won't give any extra XP either.
they went through exactly that encounter, resulting in them teleporting their asses out of there and being super duper careful next time.
On the other hand,in this very example they had pushed forward too hard, so they got involved in two or more encounters at the same time (bypassing one room by dimension door)
Speaking of which, it's worth mentioning that a being's ability to summon help (such as demons and wizards) are included in their XP value and the summoned creatures don't grant additional XP. So if you have a demon who spends a day or so gating in Vrocks...well, that's just a harder fight with no extra XP.
i tried that, see my erlier post. Summoning demons is a great way to punish lazy players.
But as i mentioned it, in the end making encounters harder causes my players to become even more careful.
This is why my hackles go up every time I hear GMs giggling over ‘stupid’ player moves or boasting that if characters die ‘thems just the breaks’. All I see are people suggesting you get into an arms race with your players. Good luck with that.
If you really want to fix the problem, get to the root. Do not try to passively aggressive manipulate them into doing what you want them to. Communicate. Ask them straight up why they keep teleporting in and out and tell them it is killing the game for you. Find out their reasons and address those.