I recently made this adjustment to how fear effects work in my campaign and my players have really liked it. The result is that fear effects don't become 'stop playing the game' effects and gives the PCs real reasons to consider fleeing rather than simply forcing them to do so. I thought I'd post them here to see if the Pathfinder crowd liked it as well.
Fear Effects: The various states of fear have the following effects.
Shaken: as in the PHB, -2 penalty to attacks, saves, skill and ability checks.
Frightened: -4 penalty to attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks. Spellcraft DC 15+ spell level or lose any spell cast while frightened.
Panicked: -8 penalty to attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks. Spellcraft DC 25+ spell level or lose any spell cast while panicked.
PCs may continue to act under these conditions. Frightened or Panicked NPCs typically flee if they are experiencing a penalty equal to or greater than their will save bonus (if they now have a negative modifier). Magical fear effects can be removed using dispel magic, but it leaves the target shaken for the remainder of the effects duration. Remove fear will completely remove all fear from the subject. Certain events such as a directly imperiled loved one (not merely a comrade, but a lover, child, or parent) may allow an additional save to reduce the condition to shaken.
nigh undetectable bump.
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I recently made this adjustment to how fear effects work in my campaign and my players have really liked it. The result is that fear effects don't become 'stop playing the game' effects and gives the PCs real reasons to consider fleeing rather than simply forcing them to do so. I thought I'd post them here to see if the Pathfinder crowd liked it as well.
regardless of bump - I actually like this. as a player I'd rather be able to attack at lesser degree than just run like a bi-otch all the time. As a warrior (barb or fighter specificaly) I hate running in fear more than just about any other aspect of the game - I'd rather be killed by a save or die.
Robert
One question, does the skill penalty also apply to the Spellcraft check to avoid losing a spell?
Overall, I like this idea.
One question, does the skill penalty also apply to the Spellcraft check to avoid losing a spell?
Overall, I like this idea.
Excellent observation, I missed that implication. The answer of course should be yes, but that makes those DCs much harder to achieve than I intended. I'll adjust them.
So let me revise them as follows:
Frightened: Spellcraft DC 10+ spell level or spell is lost.
Panicked: Spellcraft DC 20+ spell level or spell is lost.
Robert Hanson,
I would not support the removal of the Spellcraft check since under the existing rules a spellcaster can't cast spells at all when frightened or panicked (except arguably for the sole purpose of escaping). Without the Spellcraft check spellcasters are virtually unaffected by fear. That was not my intention.
Fear effects shouldn't just be a problem for warriors and rogues. If your hands are shaking, you can't catch your breath, and you can barely look at the source of your fear it seems that it would be hard to cast a spell at it.
I'm content with fear effects as is, but this is a worthy option.
I would amend something along the lines of "[Fear] effects with durations longer than one round persist until the subject is removed from line of effect of the cause of the condition, and then for the standard duration of the effect."
For instance: the Fear spell lasts 1 round per level if the save is failed, or 1 round if it is made. Under this change, if Bob the 7th-level Necromancer casts Fear on Jane the Fighter, and Jane fails her save, she suffers the -8 penalties listed above for as long as there is line of effect between her and Bob, and for 7 rounds after that.
Should Jane make the save, she will suffer only -2 penalties for a single round.
I'm not sure about fear effects giving out such huge penalties on saves. Penalizing your defenses doesn't make you run away, it makes your enemies kill you faster.
Hmm. That's a valid point about the saving throw penalties. However that is one of the things that makes this so horrific and likely to make the character decide to flee of his own volition rather than simply being forced not to play the game while the fear effect is active.
I'm hesitant to revise it too much because the system could easily lose its elegance, but I'm open to suggestions on this issue.
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I really like these changes! I'd change them slightly, based on the conversation above, and previous fear effects of 3.5 ...
Fear Effects: The various states of fear have the following effects.
Shaken: as in the PHB, -2 penalty to attacks, saves, skill and ability checks.
Frightened: -4 penalty to attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks. Spellcraft DC 10+ spell level or lose any spell cast while frightened. A frightened individual cannot become engaged with the source of its' fear, and if it is engaged, must withdraw to a distance that leaves them unengaged.
Panicked: -8 penalty to attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks. Spellcraft DC 20+ spell level or lose any spell cast while panicked. Further, the panicked target must make at least a full move action away from the source of their fear each round, until it is not in sight.
Hmm. The 'engaged' idea gives me a thought. What if the target was allowed a new saving throw to overcome their fear if they removed themselves from line of effect to the source of their fear. They could make a new save every round that they remained out of line of effect and if successful they would drop to shaken.
That would provide a real reason to flee (run, attempt the save, return to battle) and give them a chance to get their defenses back up.
I'm still on the fence about the heavy penalties to saves. It seems to make sense, but might reduce the fun of the game.
More thoughts welcome.
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I would give a character that's frightened or panicked the choice: accept the normal effects of fear and flee, or suppress the normal effects of fear by taking huge penalties of some sort. The character can choose to forgo the penalties and flee at any time, but once the character flees, he continues to flee for the duration of the fear effect.
Oooooo ... give them the penalties, unless they can break line of sight or gain cover or concealment from the source of their fear. That would do it!
(I hide under the bed from the scary ghoul ...)
I would be willing to allow a second save once a target gets out of line of sight to reduce the fear effect one level.
The one thing I dislike about fear is that it can completely screw up and adventure due to a character fleeing. In my Age of Worms game, I had a character that teleported away (via a helm of teleportation) because of a fear effect. Not only did this take a character out of the fight, but there was a chance that they would not be able to get back when the effect ended.
Giving an option like what has been suggested helps to offset situations like that.
I think that's an excellent suggestion Epic Meepo and solves the penalty issue quite nicely. It also encourages the player making the choice to run. I shall amend the rules accordingly.
Frightened: -4 penalty to attacks, saves, skills, and ability checks. Spellcraft DC 10+ spell level or lose any spell cast while frightened. A frightened individual cannot become engaged with the source of its' fear, and if it is engaged, must withdraw to a distance that leaves them unengaged.
In my games, I interpret "must flee from the source" that the character must keep clear of the creature that caused him to become frightened. When it is "reasonable" to assume the fear inducing creature can not, or would not attack the frightened character before he has a chance to run further away, he can act as if shaken. Usually this means to stay away for a distance of more than 6 to 12m, so it cannot make a single move and single attack. Spellcasting or creatures with ranged weapons may force the character to take cover. If two frontline warriors manage to corner it and take a defensive position, a frightend character might stay closer to it.
I dunno if this needs to be done really, there are a variety of low and high level spells/effects to help out against fear. Namely, remove fear and heroe's feast, both of which provide nice bonuses.
Plenty of other save-or-lose spells out there, not sure why you're singling fear out, esp. since fear does have the above counters. Just sayin like... the save could be against Hold Person, you're effectively out of the fight there too. I suppose you get a save every round, but for low-will characters, that doesnt make much differnce.
I guess my main problem is not that you think fear needs nerfing (still not sure if it does, but ok), but rather that your proposed system makes it... well... not really resemble *fear* anymore. If you're afraid, what do you do? You run away. You want to get as far away from the source of the fear as possible. That's what fear is.. you know.. out of game. If I'm walking along and I see a venomous snake rear up a few feet from me and I'm afraid... I don't take negs to hit the thing in melee. I GTFO, as the saying goes.
I'd rather see the nerf be a save each round after the first to go down to the next lesser level of fear (minimum shaken, without use of a spell or removal of the fears source). That way it's still what I think of when I think fear.
So: Wizard casts Fear. Fighter fails his save; fighter is panicked. Fighter Round-1... Fighter is panicked, fighter flees. Fighter round-2 Fighter can attempt a new save: Fail=still panicked, success= frightened. 3rd round (if frightened) attempt new save, fail=remain frightened, sucess=become shaken. 4th round (if shaken) no new saving throw unless Remove Fear or the like is cast on him, or the enemy wizard is defeated or the threat is otherwise removed (he teleports away, etc).
I'd rather see the nerf be a save each round after the first to go down to the next lesser level of fear (minimum shaken, without use of a spell or removal of the fears source). That way it's still what I think of when I think fear.
I really like that. At the very least, you can roll every round to get out of the fear, instead of doing nothing at all.
Thanks for all the thoughts folks.
This is not designed to be a nerf of fear. It doesn't make fear less powerful it makes it affect you differently. As has been pointed out being frightened or panicked under this system makes you MORE vulnerable to your enemies, not less.
My hope is not that this will exchange an interesting qualitative effect for a boring quantitative effect, but that it will create a quantitive effect which encourages the player to CHOOSE to act appropriately. This change gives the player more reasons for actual fear than the RAW system does because he is more vulnerable.
I also don't think this is necessarily worse to melee characters than to spell casters. Under the old system the fighters couldn't attack at all. So it's certainly not any worse. The DCs of the spellcraft checks are actually 14+ spell level and 28+ spell level when you include the skill check penalty. Those are pretty steep. However if that doesn't work I also considered removing the spellcraft check but instead penalizing the save DCs of your spells. That would simulate that your intense fear leaves you feeling powerless against your foes and this lack of confidence makes your spells easier to resist.
For the record I have house-rules for virtually every condition in the game that makes you stop playing or I simply don't use them (players continue to play their characters when charmed or dominated they are just expected to act accordingly). I don't consider realism a valid reason to implement something that makes a player sit out a significant portion of the game. So simulating how someone really reacts to fear is not a priority for me. Keeping my players playing and having fun is. This option gives the player choices which is a good thing.