RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As a complement to another thread, I ask those people who are staying with some version of 3rd Edition:
What aspect of the 4th Edition rules set do you want to see in your game sessions?
For me, it's
For me it would be the skill challenge/encounter system. I like that they have put together creation and XP guidelines for encounters that are meant to be dealt with using skills/RP that involves the whole party. The idea that an encounter can be completed by having 6 successful skill checks before 4 failures (or any of the other variations they provide) and have a standard XP reward means I can use that in just about any system I choose to play in.
For me, it's ** spoiler omitted **
The only problem I see with that is that the powers have been 'balanced' (hopefully) for the likely new duration and it might shift the effectiveness of some spells. Maybe someone good at math could work out a - or + to the 50/50 duration save that would give a similar average duration to 2d4.
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What aspect of the 4th Edition rules set do you want to see in your game sessions?
I'm thinking about stealing the bloodied description for my current game. I think it'll give be a better way of describing what the battlefield looks like when they ask "who looks the most hurt?" I can just announce, "this guy is bloodied" and leave it at that.
Maybe next campaign, I might try using some of the feats or mechanics associated with bloodied. I'll have to think on that one.
-Skeld
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My brother has started using the bloodied description in our 3.5 game to deal with "How hurt does this guy look?"
I would steal minions. I like big fights with lots of guys. I like some of them to be effective but not overly tough. To adapt them to 3E, I think I'd give them 1/4 HP, 1/4 damage per attack, and 1/4 XP value. Or I might just give them 1 HP like 4E. Hard to say.
I like minions as well, though when you're dealing with higher level monsters (oh, a Giant maybe) the whole 1hp idea doesn't work for me. I'd think about giving minions 1hp per level though.
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I have mixed feelings about the 1 hp thing. I agree that sometimes it just seems wrong, but
A) It's so much easier if you don't have to track it at all,
and
B) I think of minions as the nameless outlaws on the roof of the saloon in the cowboy movie. when you hit them, they die spectacularly, staggering backwards off of the roof and falling under the hooves of the stampeding cattle running by. They add colour and drama to an encounter that is greater than their threat value. Of course, this is because I've played other games with minions that spelled all of that out in that specific way, and I really liked it.
Just on my first read-through, but I do like how they offer a choice of ability for save bonuses: Best of con or str for fort save, best of wis or cha for will and best of dex or int for reflex.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Maybe someone good at math could work out a - or + to the 50/50 duration save that would give a similar average duration to 2d4.
Yes. The "roll saves until success" is called a Poisson (Pwah-SON) Distribution. The "2d4" is different: maybe you could call it a rough approximation of a Normal Distirubution.
Two major differences: the 2d4 is symmetric about the mean, and it has a top limit. With 2d4, you're guaranteed to shrug off the effect after 8 rounds. With the 4th Edition mechanic, you can just get damned unlucky and be affected for dozens of rounds.
So, there's not going to be a perfect match. But here are two simple proposals:
METHOD ONE: Find the mean of the duration, denoted M. Roll an M-sided die. The condition is removed when you roll a result of "M".
Example: 3d8. The mean is 13.5. Roll a 14-sided die until you roll a result of "14". (Since 1/14 is pretty close to 7%, roll percentiles till a result of 01 - 07.)
METHOD TWO: To simulate a duration expressed by A number of N-sided dice (for example, in "2d4", A=2 and N=4), roll A dN's each round. Each time a die rolls on it's "N" face, remove it. The condition is removed when the last die is removed.
Example: A duration of 3d8. Roll 3 d8's each round. Every time a die comes up an "8", remove it. When the last die is removed, the condition is over.
Yes. The "roll saves until success" is called a Poisson (Pwah-SON) Distribution. The "2d4" is different: maybe you could call it a rough approximation of a Normal Distirubution.Two major differences: the 2d4 is symmetric about the mean, and it has a top limit. With 2d4, you're guaranteed to shrug off the effect after 8 rounds. With the 4th Edition mechanic, you can just get damned unlucky and be affected for dozens of rounds.
So, there's not going to be a perfect match. But here are two simple proposals:
METHOD ONE: Find the mean of the duration, denoted M. Roll an M-sided die. The condition is removed when you roll a result of "M".
Example: 3d8. The mean is 13.5. Roll a 14-sided die until you roll a result of "14". (Since 1/14 is pretty close to 7%, roll percentiles till a result of 01 - 07.)
METHOD TWO: To simulate a duration expressed by A number of N-sided dice (for example, in "2d4", A=2 and N=4), roll A dN's each round. Each time a die rolls on it's "N" face, remove it. The condition is removed when the last die is removed.
Example: A duration of 3d8. Roll 3 d8's each round. Every time a die comes up an "8", remove it. When the last die is removed, the condition is over.
How difficult would it be to take the average of the 2d4 (5 rounds) and figure out a target number to roll over on a d20 that gives roughly a 50% chance of shaking an affect after 5 rolls?
Just curious! :)
Second wind - but a bit more like the SWSE version, once/day
Feats available only to certain races - but not necessarily the ones they came up with in 4e
Gonna try and work up a similar method of treasure distribution to 4e's for 3.5.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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How difficult would it be to take the average of the 2d4 (5 rounds) and figure out a target number to roll over on a d20 that gives roughly a 50% chance of shaking an affect after 5 rolls?
David, I ran a few hundred simulations on my TI-83. Under the assumption that the randInt function works the way it's supposed to, I got the following data for different target rolls on a d20:
20 Median: 17 Mean: 22.04 Maximum: 89
19-20 Median: 9.5 Mean: 12.34 Maximum: 44
18-20 Median: 6 Mean: 8.66 Maximum: 46
17-20 Median: 3 Mean: 4.68 Maximum: 32
16-20 Median: 3 Mean: 3.56 Maximum: 11
(The means are higher than the medians because the data are skewed high. That is, it's more likely that a result will be, say, 5 higher than the median, rather than 5 lower.)
For my purposes, there are not enough options there. (For example, none of them are close enough to that 2d4 median of 5.)
David, I ran a few hundred simulations on my TI-83. Under the assumption that the randInt function works the way it's supposed to, I got the following data for different target rolls on a d20:
20 19-20 18-20 17-20 16-20
Median 17 9.5 6 3 3
Mean 22.04 12.34 8.66 4.68 3.56
Maximum 89 44 46 32 11(The means are higher than the medians because the data are skewed high. That is, it's more likely that a result will be, say, 5 higher than the median, rather than 5 lower.)
For my purposes, there are not enough options there. (For example, none of them are close enough to that 2d4 median of 5.)
Perhaps I misread your numbers, but it seems a saving throw of 17-20 lasts, on average, about 5 rounds. Am I just looking at your figures incorrectly here?
I might try to adapt a version of their skill challenge system for some situations. Other than that, not much.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Perhaps I misread your numbers, but it seems a saving throw of 17-20 lasts, on average, about 5 rounds. Am I just looking at your figures incorrectly here?
No, the average is a little less than 5, that's right. But I think we want to look at the median, rather than the mean. Some very long strings without successes push the mean up, but if you're trying to plan "how long is my character going to be sickened, look at the median for the best estimate.
No, the average is a little less than 5, that's right. But I think we want to look at the median, rather than the mean. Some very long strings without successes push the mean up, but if you're trying to plan "how long is my character going to be sickened, look at the median for the best estimate.
Hmm, true. Hadn't spent too many brain cycles weighing the relative merits of using the median or the mean ...
Thanks for the number crunching! :)
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Hmm, true. Hadn't spent too many brain cycles weighing the relative merits of using the median or the mean ...
Median makes more since as it's the 50% pecentile of the data set.
Mean and Average (also called Expected Values), as we typically calculate them (sum[n]/n), are generally only useful for Normally distributed random variables. Each type of distribution (be it Poisson, Binomial, Geometric, etc.) has it's own methodology for calculating Expected Value.
-Skeld
Rituals I like.
Continual saves is a good idea.
The next save can be fortfied by a stat. amping spell or Battle Hyme.
If you can declare a reroll on every roll of 10 or less, the effect will be over sooner.
Note that the rerolls against dragon fear should only start when you leave the area. Ditto vs stinking cloud.
As a complement to another thread, I ask those people who are staying with some version of 3rd Edition:
What aspect of the 4th Edition rules set do you want to see in your game sessions?
For me, it's ** spoiler omitted **
Wow. There are so many good rules, how can I pick? If I were staying with 3rd Edition, I'd probably keep the minion rules. I'd just make some of those monsters the PCs fought die in one hit.
I like the imagery in addition to the mechanics of minions.
I like the static saves and attack rolls for special attacks, like the Dragon rolling 1d20 + 1/2 HD + Con mod vs the 10 + the target(s)'s Reflex Save.
Minions seem great. Last game I ran, I had some low-Con minions, and the Players loved wading through them, especially since they were used to 200+ hp tanks. It really made the game a lot more fun.
I also like the At Will/Encounter/Daily powers. I like the idea of everyone having a trump card.
I like minions as well, though when you're dealing with higher level monsters (oh, a Giant maybe) the whole 1hp idea doesn't work for me. I'd think about giving minions 1hp per level though.
Having run the first bits of KotS the absolutely best thing about minons was the 1 hp because in a fight with 10 minons and 1-3 normals I only have to track hp for the normals meaning I can adjudicate the results of attacks a lot quicker. I do not have a great memory but I was able to remember 'they attack at +4 for 4 damage' pretty fast and as a result I ran most of the fight looming over the minis rather than from behind my makeshift screen.
If you DM a lot this probably does not mean much but to me it made a big fight go a lot faster for me. Giving the minions an extra HP or two would not add much of anything to the game (they would still be dieing in one hit almost always) but might slow down things.
I like minions as well, though when you're dealing with higher level monsters (oh, a Giant maybe) the whole 1hp idea doesn't work for me. I'd think about giving minions 1hp per level though.
really what you want is 'it dies when you thump it one'. I'd basically give them some kind of DR/Energy Resistance. What you want to do is make the players actually hit the minion - not take it out with the splash damage from Alchemists fire.
Saying it as 8 hps when their 13th level and its an 'Ogre Minion' does not really cover the desired effect - they'd kill them with secondary damage from various things. Essentially you need it so that the minion takes no damage unless the players actually go through the trouble of landing some kind of a real blow. At this point its just presumed that the players do enough damage to kill it.
I like the minion rules from M&M so if you considering stealing them from a system that stole them from another system, then sure. Chalk that one up.
Despite the fact I always hated # Spells/day, I like the new At Will/Encounter/Day structure. Before 4e came out, I had already done pretty much the same thing in Hero with charges…so I guess I stole it before they even got it out the door.
I also like some attacks targeting different Saves than your usual AC. I only saw this with Encounter/Day abilities. A rogue going after Reflex just makes more sense to me than always targeting AC.
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I like minions as well, though when you're dealing with higher level monsters (oh, a Giant maybe) the whole 1hp idea doesn't work for me. I'd think about giving minions 1hp per level though.really what you want is 'it dies when you thump it one'. I'd basically give them some kind of DR/Energy Resistance. What you want to do is make the players actually hit the minion - not take it out with the splash damage from Alchemists fire.
Saying it as 8 hps when their 13th level and its an 'Ogre Minion' does not really cover the desired effect - they'd kill them with secondary damage from various things. Essentially you need it so that the minion takes no damage unless the players actually go through the trouble of landing some kind of a real blow. At this point its just presumed that the players do enough damage to kill it.
There is already a rule in place much like this; Minions in 4E take no damage from effects that do damage on a miss, so if you fireball a bunch of them, only the ones that are 'hit' by the fireball are affected.
There is already a rule in place much like this; Minions in 4E take no damage from effects that do damage on a miss, so if you fireball a bunch of them, only the ones that are 'hit' by the fireball are affected.
Right, so if you want to try and steal the idea for 3E, consider giving all your pseudo-minions Evasion and Mettle.
Cheers! :)
I'll make it easy for you.
Minions that save are bloodied.
Minions that don't save are crispy toast.
I may start using that in my games.
Lots of times when big honking fireballs will wipe out the lesser monsters on a fail.
There is already a rule in place much like this; Minions in 4E take no damage from effects that do damage on a miss, so if you fireball a bunch of them, only the ones that are 'hit' by the fireball are affected.
Sure - I'm just trying to think of a mechanic that works well with 3.5.
Maybe those that save don't die? Not sure how well that would work though.
Edit: Oops, I see Goth Guru already mentioned this.
Sure - I'm just trying to think of a mechanic that works well with 3.5.Maybe those that save don't die? Not sure how well that would work though.
Edit: Oops, I see Goth Guru already mentioned this.
I said it up above but maybe you missed it ... just give 3.5 minions Evasion and Mettle. That'll keep 'em going (assuming they can make their saves!)
Hands down it would be the multiclassing system. I love a lot of things in 4e, but I think the multiclassing system is the singular thing that I find myself missing in my other games. I love the fact that going from one class to another is a slow ramp-up now, getting a feat based "proto-class" that you gradually can stick special abilities onto until you eventually arrive at your first full class level over the course of half your adventuring career. Certainly there are enough characters I run into who are:
[list]
Or such stories, where they certainly aren't all one thing, but aren't quite two things either. It would be so nice to be able to make 4e style hybrids. In fact in our Pathfinder game over half our players would jump at the chance to do their characters with a 4e style multiclass system.