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Each same class spellcaster level counts as +1 spellcaster level (SCL)
-- This gives the normal benefits such as additional spells per day and spells knownEach different class spellcaster level or non spellcasting level counts as +1/2 towards the SCL of the other spellcasting class
-- This gives a 5/5 rogue/wizard 7 SCL. This only applies to things such as caster level checks, duration, etc. The same for a clr5/wiz5...they would have 7 SCL for each class.May not be perfect, but that's what I'm here for. Your thoughts.
I favor something like this, if for no other reason than it reduces the need for (flavorless) prestige classes like the Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge. Instead of making it an actual rule change (which bumps into backward compatability) what about making a couple of feats that do the same thing, but with an extra lil flavor built in. Something like these examples:
Feat: Theurge
Flavor text to the effect that you are a mage priest.
Effect: You're levels in arcane or divine spell-casting classes stack (as above, +1/2) for the purpose of SCL, as well as for cleric domains, sorcerous bloodlines and wizard specialties.
Feat: Warrior-Skald
Flavor text, you're a warrior-bard
Effect: Half of your levels in any full-BAB class stack with your bard level for SCL and Bardic Music. You may wear medium armor without suffering arcane spell failure chances.
Feat: Warpriest
Flavor text ...
Effect: Half of your levels in any full-BAB class stack with your cleric level for SCL and Channel Energy. You may take the Weapon Specialization Feat for your deity's favored weapon even if you do not meet the normal pre-requisites.
I favor something like this, if for no other reason than it reduces the need for (flavorless) prestige classes like the Eldritch Knight and Mystic Theurge. Instead of making it an actual rule change (which bumps into backward compatability) what about making a couple of feats that do the same thing, but with an extra lil flavor built in. Something like these examples:Well, here's the question that bothers me about that (which is a concise solution for a character option).
When I think of a feat...I think of "adding" to my character to give it cool new abilities that others can't do (usually). So, if I can establish that as where I'm coming from, my next statement might make a bit more sense.
The feat that I can think of off the top of my head that is the worst culprit for not really "adding" something to the character is "Practiced Spellcaster". In my mind, what this feat does is it brings your character up to a level on par with the rest of your party if they didn't have a feat at that level.
Hmmmm...trying to find a good way to explain this. If I get Two-Weapon Fighting, I gain the ability to be more effective with my attack actions in combat. Taking Practiced Spellcasting just feels..."Well, if I DON'T do this, my character's power is below others in the group". If that makes ANY sense at all.
I've put it like this before in other threads I've been a part of (both here and other sites): Feats should be used to add to a character, not to fill a weakness in the character design.
Does this make sense to anyone but me? :)
What you propose is exactly the same thing as Practised Spellcaster; filling in a weakness. You just want it for everyone and with no cap.
When you first multiclass, you're choosing the features of a new class over the one you already have. Each time you advance, you make the same choice; one class over another.
Do you think any other class features from the non-spellcasting classes should be augmented by levels in another class? More sneak attack dice for rogues who take levels in wizard? More uses per day of Wildshape for druids who take levels in fighter? More rage points for barbarians who take levels in bard?
So why more caster level for wizards/sorcerers/clerics that take levels in anything else?
When you choose a different class to advance in, you give up the features of the other class, all of them. Its part of the price for the versatility of multiclass characters.
I don't think its a bad rule, I just think it is a better house-rule than a core rule.
-Jack
When you choose a different class to advance in, you give up the features of the other class, all of them. Its part of the price for the versatility of multiclass characters.
However I feel that the versatility for many of the multiclass characters is overpriced. What I would like is either the price to be dropped or the value of multiclassing to be raised.
I think the the price is too high. Stop overcharging.
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Do you think any other class features from the non-spellcasting classes should be augmented by levels in another class? More sneak attack dice for rogues who take levels in wizard? More uses per day of Wildshape for druids who take levels in fighter? More rage points for barbarians who take levels in bard?
Oooo... I like it a Bard-barian! The perfect class combination for a gonnagle.
Of course it would suck unless rage and bardic performance advanced.
You seem to be comparing a martial class multiclassing with another martial class to a casting class multiclassing with a martial class. Of course the benefits are going to overlap for martial/martial and not for caster/martial. The benefits for caster/caster often overlap, usually when done with prestige classes.
Caster/caster with core classes would not have overlapping benefits, but there is Mystic Theurge that gives the casting benefits of both arcane and divine, only giving up special abilities for the core classes. Wizard/sorcerer mixes are a pain and often confusing. Druid/cleric is sometimes a good combination, but usually just weakens both facets.
I could possibly see a caster level increase for mixed arcane casters, half level to each other. Or with mixed divine casters. But definitely not with arcane/divine mixes or martial/caster mixes.
What justification would you propose for a Fighter level increasing your Wizard's caster level?
I just don't see what a martial class contributes magic-wise to the character; it should contribute martially not magically. If you want more magic, advance in the caster class not the fighting one. If you want more fighting ability advance in the martial class.
If you want both, find a prestige class that does both. There's plenty of them. If there's a specific character that you want to play that you think needs this rule, just ask the DM house-rule it for you. In general however, and for core rules, I think this is unneccessary and overpowered.
-Jack
What justification would you propose for a Fighter level increasing your Wizard's caster level?
The character is not training as Fighter, the character is training as a Fighter/Wizard? He is not some character who one day drops all his martial training to hit the books, then next week completely forgets about wizardry to train his martial skill.
Prestige classes should not be used that way in my opinion. It makes them less prestigious when they are required if you want to multiclass significantly. Besides I should have to leap through hoops and go through a huge library just to find something for my Barbarian/Druid. I should be able to do it easily and without having a giant library. Prestige classes should be special and optional, not required to make your class combination work.
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The character is not training as Fighter, the character is training as a Fighter/Wizard?
If he's training as a Fighter/ Wizard then he should take a level of Fighter then a Level of Wizard... thus advancing both skill sets over time. D&D abandoned the concept of the true multiclass "Fighter/Wizard" with version 3.0 and has moved to training classes separately.
I'm Ok with bringing back old school style multi-classing. If you are serious about it then how about coming up with a proposal that works for all classes not just casters. There is a proposal hopping around here.
-- Dennis
The character is not training as Fighter, the character is training as a Fighter/Wizard?If he's training as a Fighter/ Wizard then he should take a level of Fighter then a Level of Wizard... thus advancing both skill sets over time. D&D abandoned the concept of the true multiclass "Fighter/Wizard" with version 3.0 and has moved to training classes separately.
I'm Ok with bringing back old school style multi-classing. If you are serious about it then how about coming up with a proposal that works for all classes not just casters. There is a proposal hopping around here.
-- Dennis
I just meant that there were reasons for advancing the abilities of your other classes when leveling in one class. I'm not that familiar with the previous multiclassing systems.
I really hope my proposal in the other thread would work for the non-casting classes too.
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I'm not that familiar with the previous multiclassing systems.
Classic Multi casting is similar to the Gestalt character system. Multi class characters advanced at a slower rate, generally lagging a level or two behind their single class counterparts. You would advance both classes separately and sometimes one of your classes would be a higher level than others. Thieves advanced much faster Magic Users so your Theif class was going to 3rd level when your wizard level was just getting to second level. You think the current system is odd...
It would be interesting to try running a campaign with both gestalt and normal characters, with the normal characters using the Fast Prgression on the experience chart and the Gestalt ones using the Slow Progression.
== Dennis
When you gain a level as a Wizard, who does not physical and weapons training whatsoever (in the roleplaying sense), he still gains the following:
BAB increases at a 2:1 ratio
Fort save increases
Hitpoints
What does a Fighter get that's non-physical when leveling?
Will save increases
hmm...
See? This is where you could consider tossing the non-casters a bone (without needing to spend feats or Prestige class levels).
While you are thinking on improving sub-optimal multi class choices please make sure to fix the bard/ monk and the the barbarian/ bard, these combinations get seriously punished under the current system.
I want my Gonagle.
Well, I could not have said this better, Zynete. I agree with you 110% on this.What justification would you propose for a Fighter level increasing your Wizard's caster level?The character is not training as Fighter, the character is training as a Fighter/Wizard? He is not some character who one day drops all his martial training to hit the books, then next week completely forgets about wizardry to train his martial skill.
Prestige classes should not be used that way in my opinion. It makes them less prestigious when they are required if you want to multiclass significantly. Besides I should have to leap through hoops and go through a huge library just to find something for my Barbarian/Druid. I should be able to do it easily and without having a giant library. Prestige classes should be special and optional, not required to make your class combination work.
Since there is no class called Fighter/Wizard, I would say this is not a valid justification. There is a Fighter class and a Wizard class. A Fighter/Wizard is a character with some levels in each, not all levels in some hybrid single class. Maybe you should create a hybrid core class that does what you want.
And optimal progression of a combination of various class features is EXACTLY what prestige classes are for. A Barbarian/Druid combination doesn't require a library, it just requires the PHB, both classes are right in there. And by the way, it works just fine without any rules to make Barbarian levels increase caster level for druid spells.
BAB is NOT a class feature of martial classes, all classes get BAB. ONE TO ONE ratio is the class feature of martial classes. Since the progression of caster classes is so weak (2 to 1), martial classes do not really get a benefit from caster BAB, they are PENALIZED; as it should be.
Caster level IS a class feature of caster classes. If a caster takes levels in a martial class, he is penalized by no increase in caster level; as it should be.
If, under your suggestion, the martial levels are to benefit the caster levels by providing some degree of higher than normal caster level, should not the caster levels benefit the martial levels by providing a higher than normal BAB progression? Say 1.5 to 1, instead of the normal 2 to 1.
After all, fair is fair. Or do just casters benefit from multiclassing?
-Jack
After all, fair is fair. Or do just casters benefit from multiclassing?
Every multi classing combination has a different amount of synergy. The idea put forward by Arkanth is a fix for one specific poor class combination synergy. Specifically any combination that involves a class whose powers are focused in their spell crafting. Classes that derive much of their power from non-casting abilities -- Druid, Bard, Barbarian, Rogue, Monks... these classes are left in the dark.
To date the theory behind why these classes are left in the dark is "They poke things with sticks so it doesn't matter how you mix and match those classes they all get better."
When you gain a level as a Wizard, who does not physical and weapons training whatsoever (in the roleplaying sense), he still gains the following:
BAB increases at a 2:1 ratio
Fort save increases
HitpointsWhat does a Fighter get that's non-physical when leveling?
Will save increases
hmm...See? This is where you could consider tossing the non-casters a bone (without needing to spend feats or Prestige class levels).
I honesly don't see the point you are trying to make here.
We're not talking "physical" vs. "mental". We're talking class abilities vs. multiclassing.
Ugh, there was supposed to be a quote at the beginning. Repairman Jack's "what does Fighter training give a Wizard".
I'm basically saying that despite the Wizard putting NO training whatsoever towards physical combat, a Fighter/Wizard continues to increase his physical combat abilities with his Wizard levels, albeit at a slower rate.
However, he doesn't get any kind of magical increase during his Fighter levels at all. Despite his mind growing more powerful (Will save increase).
If you made it so that there was say, a Base Magic Bonus (BMB) that was reversed between Fighters and Wizards, you'd have an equivalent mechanic for Fighter levels applying towards multiclassing Wizard levels.
So a Fighter 10/Wizard 10 would have a 15 BAB, and a 15 BMB without any special feats, prestige classes, or anything. I could see potential in this idea.
After all, fair is fair. Or do just casters benefit from multiclassing?Every multi classing combination has a different amount of synergy. The idea put forward by Arkanth is a fix for one specific poor class combination synergy. Specifically any combination that involves a class whose powers are focused in their spell crafting. Classes that derive much of their power from non-casting abilities -- Druid, Bard, Barbarian, Rogue, Monks... these classes are left in the dark.
To date the theory behind why these classes are left in the dark is "They poke things with sticks so it doesn't matter how you mix and match those classes they all get better."
I think that the idea behind increased caster level from non-casting or other casting classes comes from the desire to play this augmented class rather than from a general need for this mechanic in the game.
You're right in that there's no concern for any mechanic other than caster level. No boost for sneak attack, rage points or bard music from other classes; just caster level.
The fact that BAB is NOT a class feature of Fighters, the PROGRESSION is the class feature, seems to be lost here. Every class has BAB, just like Base Saves, the difference is in the progression.
To say Fighters GAIN from a SLOWER BAB progression, so Wizards should gain from NO caster level progression is illogical. Fighters are penalized from a slower progression, so Wizards should be penalized from a total lack of progression when advancing in other than Wizard.
I wonder if this illogical mechanic would be applied to monster HD, increasing the caster level of monsters with spellcasting class levels?
As I said before, its an okay house-rule, but as a core game mechanic, unless its applied equally to all other class features than caster level, its unfair.
-Jack
Since there is no class called Fighter/Wizard, I would say this is not a valid justification. There is a Fighter class and a Wizard class. A Fighter/Wizard is a character with some levels in each, not all levels in some hybrid single class. Maybe you should create a hybrid core class that does what you want.
Or maybe I should hope for a mechanic that doesn't cause me to make many hybrid core classes for ever situation.
And optimal progression of a combination of various class features is EXACTLY what prestige classes are for.
Really?
I thought they were a tool for the DM to portray unique organizations in their game. Not a tool for the player to optimize their multiclass character.
Also what about all those prestige classes that don't require multiclassing?
If, under your suggestion, the martial levels are to benefit the caster levels by providing some degree of higher than normal caster level, should not the caster levels benefit the martial levels by providing a higher than normal BAB progression? Say 1.5 to 1, instead of the normal 2 to 1.
After all, fair is fair. Or do just casters benefit from multiclassing?
No. Under my suggestion all base classes improved all their class abilities through multiclassing (albeit at a slower rate).
Yes, this isn't the difference between Martial getting slower vs Caster getting slower.
It's saying that Martial gets SOMETHING for the Caster levels, while Casters get NOTHING from Martial levels.
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The way it works now:
Martial class gains +1 BAB per level.
Caster class gains +1 BAB per 2 levels.
Caster class gains +1 caster stuff per level.
Martial class gains 0 caster stuff.
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When you bring in something like 0 improvement, you get into an exponential magnification of the problem. If it was +1 per 3 levels, or even 4 levels.. it would just be a matter of taste. But we are looking at NO benefit, no matter how many levels higher you get.
This is specifically and exactly the reason we see Multiclassing as failing when it comes to Caster levels.
If you were to change the base mechanics of the game to accommodate spellcaster multiclassing, then you wouldn't need band-aid prestige classes.
It would mean your mixed spellcaster would be effective right from his multiclassed levels, as opposed to having to wait 8 or 10 levels before starting to see some kind of proper mix. In my experience, 10 levels of play is MORE than half the life of a particular character, which means for most of the character's existence, he's NOT his desired character concept.
I honestly don't think any boost in CL is needed for multi classing out.
If 1/2 progression was put in you get abberations like a 5 Wizard/ 5 Sorcerer/ 5 Cleric/ 5 Druid, drop in 4 practised spellcaster feats and you got 4 casting classes all at CL 16 and god knows how many spells a day. I see that as a bit over powered in any game.
If you want your wizard to be better at fighting, how is he going to get better? Take time out from his wizardly studies to get to grips with weapons and armour. Why should he gain more power in casting when he's learning how to use the tools of a fighter?
Yes wizards and others get a slow increase in BAB, that's because they learn that to survive they need to hit something with all the ray spells and touch attacks that litter the spell lists.
This kind of thing doesn't need to be in the core rules.
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I honestly don't think any boost in CL is needed for multi classing out.
If 1/2 progression was put in you get abberations like a 5 Wizard/ 5 Sorcerer/ 5 Cleric/ 5 Druid, drop in 4 practised spellcaster feats and you got 4 casting classes all at CL 16 and god knows how many spells a day. I see that as a bit over powered in any game.
If you want your wizard to be better at fighting, how is he going to get better? Take time out from his wizardly studies to get to grips with weapons and armour. Why should he gain more power in casting when he's learning how to use the tools of a fighter?
Yes wizards and others get a slow increase in BAB, that's because they learn that to survive they need to hit something with all the ray spells and touch attacks that litter the spell lists.
This kind of thing doesn't need to be in the core rules.
It's caster level, not number of spells/day. In your example, each would have a caster level of 16, but only the spells per day of a 5th level caster. I don't think many CL20 foes are going to be all that bothered by a fireball.
It's caster level, not number of spells/day. In your example, each would have a caster level of 16, but only the spells per day of a 5th level caster. I don't think many CL20 foes are going to be all that bothered by a fireball.I honestly don't think any boost in CL is needed for multi classing out.
If 1/2 progression was put in you get abberations like a 5 Wizard/ 5 Sorcerer/ 5 Cleric/ 5 Druid, drop in 4 practised spellcaster feats and you got 4 casting classes all at CL 16 and god knows how many spells a day. I see that as a bit over powered in any game.
If you want your wizard to be better at fighting, how is he going to get better? Take time out from his wizardly studies to get to grips with weapons and armour. Why should he gain more power in casting when he's learning how to use the tools of a fighter?
Yes wizards and others get a slow increase in BAB, that's because they learn that to survive they need to hit something with all the ray spells and touch attacks that litter the spell lists.
This kind of thing doesn't need to be in the core rules.
Doesn't need to to something as simple as a fireball. There's orbs, buffing spells, battlefield control spells, the list goes on. There's more than one way to beat an encounter. When you've got the versatility of all 4 casting classes even if the highest you can cast is level 3, at CL of 16 you can cause alot of chaos.
Doesn't need to to something as simple as a fireball. There's orbs, buffing spells, battlefield control spells, the list goes on. There's more than one way to beat an encounter. When you've got the versatility of all 4 casting classes even if the highest you can cast is level 3, at CL of 16 you can cause alot of chaos.It's caster level, not number of spells/day. In your example, each would have a caster level of 16, but only the spells per day of a 5th level caster. I don't think many CL20 foes are going to be all that bothered by a fireball.I honestly don't think any boost in CL is needed for multi classing out.
If 1/2 progression was put in you get abberations like a 5 Wizard/ 5 Sorcerer/ 5 Cleric/ 5 Druid, drop in 4 practised spellcaster feats and you got 4 casting classes all at CL 16 and god knows how many spells a day. I see that as a bit over powered in any game.
If you want your wizard to be better at fighting, how is he going to get better? Take time out from his wizardly studies to get to grips with weapons and armour. Why should he gain more power in casting when he's learning how to use the tools of a fighter?
Yes wizards and others get a slow increase in BAB, that's because they learn that to survive they need to hit something with all the ray spells and touch attacks that litter the spell lists.
This kind of thing doesn't need to be in the core rules.
The multiclassed character would probably have less spells per day than a single classed sorcerer. He had also spent four feats and the most highest level spell the multiclassed character has might have been a match for the most powerful spell of a wizard six levels lower.
Overly complex, yes.
Overpowered? I don't think so. Not in any way.
The problem is:
what you want is something for nothing.
Mystic Theurge (sp? butchered that one, i know) only gives + spell casting for 10 levels to two classes.
It does Not pregress anything else for the classes.
Bonus feats? No
Familiar? No
Turning? No
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Your proposition is to give for free something that a 10 level prestige class currently doesn't give.
Multiclassing should not be as good as keeping with 1 class.
You are never as good at doing two things as you would be if you concentrated on One.
The original phrasing of your post, about the first half, had me thinking you were going in another direction and I'll post what I think of that here:
The problem with caster multiclassing is overcoming SR.
Therefore I would accept a rules change to multiclassing that allows a character to add 1/2 of other classes to their caster class *for the purposes of SR checks*.
A 10/10 wiz/cleric combo would shoot SR checks at 15th caster level- a boost to both but not overpoweringly so.
I would further limit it that such bonuses can't exceed half the actual caster level in the caster class it applies to.
(so 2/18 would yield CL of +1).
You are correct in saying that you do not get as much for multiclassing as you do for staying in one class. This is not an omission or a mistake or an accidental oversight. It's been this way in 3.0 and 3.5 and in Paizo. It is a specific design philosophy that Paizo has taken to the extreme by introducing MORE class features. Class features that explicitly help you make the choice to STICK with one class rather than multiclassing out.
I think caster/martial multiclassing should work in such a way that you get that a Cleric10/Sorcerer10 is about as powerful as a Fighter10/Barbarian10. There should be no need for classes like the Mystic Theurge and Eldrich Knight and all the other PrCs that specifically exist only to make caster/caster or caster/martial combinations viable.
Your solution somehow makes your second class advance faster than it normally would. An example: Take 10 levels of Wiz, put on the robes and become a cleric, You advance 10 levels somehow your caster level is now 15... Somehow a cleric that has wizard levels advances faster, this makes sense?
Why should caster level increase when the power of Bardic Song does not?
If caster level increases due to continued use shouldn't a rogues sneak attack continue to increase as well? And before you break out the pointy stick argument assume for a minute that he's multi classing with Wizard.
BAH. freakin thing ate my post. *grumble!*
Apologies if I sounded condescending, as that was not my intent. I meant to only point out that this isn't something Paizo did off hand, nor was it a side-decision made in 3.5, but rather it's been something relatively pervasive in the game rather than an accident. If my phrasing or word choice made it come across as condescending then you have my apology as I did not mean for it to be so.
As to the meat of your post, I seem to have been mistaken as to your original intent. (actually i got it confused with some of the other posters- my fault and not yours).
-S
You have not answered the question of why the Wizard 10/ Cleric 1 advances in clerical power faster than a normal Cleric 1 either (after 10 levels a Wizard 10/ Cleric 10 has CL 15/15).
The things you are pointing out are, in fact, deemed by WotC to be the equivalent of a new level of spell access plus more spells per level. Look at a 5th level wizard and a fifth level rogue. A fifth level rogue ONLY receives a +1d6 sneak attack damage and a wizard gets access to 1 new spell level and no more spells per day (not counting the one new for 3rd level). So, to counter the fact that they do not receive an increase to spells they receive a feat.
Sneak attack==Class specific power
Spells == Class specific powerClass specific powers do not increase when you multiclass unless you use a PrC that specifically allows it to. That is what Wizards "Deemed". If you want to have one class specific power scale with level then you should have parity.
In fact, if you look at the rogue's progression (SRD) there are only two levels where the rogue actually receives another bonus ability other than trapfinding/trap sense increase. So, by reverse engineering, we can surmise that a +1d6 to damage when flanking is pretty beefy and equivalent to a spellcaster level.
???? What ???? There is no 1 to 1 equivalence here. By reverse engineering give me a break.
rage = bardic music = turning = wild shape = smite = sneak attack = stunning fist = full spellcaster level.
There is no equivalence because the powers all work completely differently.
You want equivalence? There is no more rage/ day mechanism, rage points determine how many rounds a barbarian can rage. Under your idea a the multi classed barbarian's rage duration is fixed forever while the duration of Bulls strength for the wizard would increase every level. Similarly the number of rounds per day a cleric can use Divine Power increases under your system and again the Barbarian's rage duration is fixed.
Similarly the bonuses from Greater Magic Weapon increase with level but the bonuses from Inspire Courage do not. Not # of times per day but the bonuses derived from those class abilities.
BAH. freakin thing ate my post. *grumble!*
Frustrating. I've gotten into the habit of hitting CTRL-A CTRL-C before hitting the post button.