Counterspell - making it viable?


New Rules Suggestions

Grand Lodge

I was talking to a friend the other day and we both agree that its better for a wizard to ready to cast daze instead of using counterspell. with the fact that in pathfinder daze is now a spell-like ability this makes disabling single opponents a breeze at low levels, sure its not so effective at high levels but it could still be problematic and against low will save creatures very deadly.

I think this spell needs to be addressed anyway but as the title of this tread reads I think Pathfinder has an opportunity to make counterspelling a viable tactic for spellcasters.

As it stands, and with so many new spells being added to the game, counterspell is almost completely useless unless you have dispel magic. Even improved counterspell feat is almost entirely useless since most BBEGs are casting spells above your parties level.

I had a suggestion that might help...

Counterspell requires an opposed caster level check to work which is a standard action that you must ready. This caster level is modified by certain factors.

Modifiers Table wrote:

Spell you sacrifice to counter is... modifier to level check

Different type (e.g. using arcane spell to counter divine spell) ... -2
Different school (using divination to counter evocation) ... -2
Same spell (using fireball to counter fireball) ... +2
An opposed spell (using haste to counter slow) ... +2
Higher level (using 4th level spell to counter a 3rd) ... +2 per spell level difference

You cannot counterspell another spell with any spell that is lower level than the spell being countered. (exception see Greater Counterspell below)

If you succeed on a successful Spellcraft check to identify the spell (as a free action) you can choose the spell you sacrifice after making the check and identifying the spell.

Using dispel magic to counterspell requires the standard dispel check as normal except that the dispel check counts as a spell of the same type it is counterspelling, in effect granting the dispel check a +2 modifier. In addition, dispel magic can dispel a spell of any level even one thats of a higher level.

Improved Counterspell [general]
Benefit: You can make a counterspell as an immediate action meaning you do not have to ready to use it. you gain a +2 bonus to caster level to resist having your spells being countered.

Greater Counterspell [general]
Prerequisite: Improved Counterspell, ability to cast dispel magic
Benefit: You gain a +2 caster level bonus when counterspelling or being counterspelled (stacks with improved counterspell) and can counter spells with a spell one level lower than the spell you are countering.


With immediate action Counterspell, you have to ask.. what's to stop people from just counterspelling everything (shutting down at least one caster) and then still getting all his spells out? You know, other than costing a lot of spells (pearls of power may come in handy here).

Here's a couple additional items I propose to your system:

1. Add in the "Spell Duelist" option from E.N. Publishing's War of the Burning Sky. Okay, maybe you can't do that unless you ask them really nice or come up with your own thing, but basically it's using Bluff to fake out any counterspelling people into thinking you are casting a different spell.
If they fail the sense motive check, they automatically fail their counterspell as they thought it was something else.

This is the Mongoose to the Counterspelling Snake.

2. Do not allow counterspelling (even with immediate actions) against Quickened or inherently fast casting spells or triggers that should be going off instantaneously.

This protects the power of the Quickened spell, and prevents Featherfall from becoming cut off at the knees. Also, it makes thematic sense... by the time you've registered that the person did anything magical, the effect has gone off.. how can you view, interpret, and then cast your counter spell in response to an instantaneous effect.

3. Make sure the person has to be aware of the other person casting. A spell with no Verbal, Somatic or even Material components shouldn't be counterspellable... there is literally no indication as to what spell is being cast (possibly no indication a spell is being cast at all if it doesn't require locating a target or concentration to that effect).

This gives the relatively weak metamagic feats (Still/Silent, and to a lesser extent Eschew Material) a slight boost in magic "duels".

Now, I might allow combinations to work against this, such as having Arcane Sight (knowing what spells are being cast, etc) to bypass this kind of defense. It's high level, relatively short lived, and is the point of the spell anyways.

Grand Lodge

Kaisoku wrote:
With immediate action Counterspell, you have to ask.. what's to stop people from just counterspelling everything (shutting down at least one caster) and then still getting all his spells out? You know, other than costing a lot of spells (pearls of power may come in handy here).

The main drawback is that counterspell would now require an opposed caster level check meaning its not automatically successful unlike the original counterspell. While it might be an option to lock out a single caster the chances of successfully doing so are majorly decreased. I see this being more of a wizard noticing the evil sorcerer is about to ray of enfeeblement on the fighter so decides to counterspell it, while if the enemy cleric, 3 levels higher than the party, is casting protection from good hes unlikely to waste a spell trying to counter a divine spell with -4 to his the CL check.

Kaisoku wrote:

Here's a couple additional items I propose to your system:

1. 2. and 3.

On 1, I'm not familiar with the system but it does sound very interesting indeed and the more uses for skills the better I say :)

2 and 3 however make perfectly good sense to me and I agree 100% with you on them. swift spells and quickened spells shouldn't be possible to counterspell not triggered spells. Line of sight is very much a necessity of counterspelling too IMHO and things like silent spell and still spell can all help to making a spell harder to counter. Perhaps make such spells an additional -2 CL check penalty.


I've got a copy of the Star Wars RPG (this is before Saga edition)... and there's something in there that seems cool to me.

Pre-emptive action Counterspelling (stolen from Lightsaber block)

Basically, allow someone to counterspell as an immediate action, but use their standard action from their next turn (or, as an alternative, the counterspeller becomes stunned for a standard action). However, the person who fails the counterspell attempt loses a full-round action (in this case, the counterspellee would become stunnded for 1 full round).

Pros: Encourages spellcaaters working in a team (shutting down opponent spellcasters and then both being a bit stunned, allowing the melee-types to come in and be useful.
Cons: Does allow immediate action counterspelling, and could make 4 PCs vs 1 bad guy encounters VERY quick.


One of the best ways I could see for making counter spelling easier is making it easier to pull off.

Under 3.5, you had to either use dispel magic and an opposed caster roll, or just mark off the same spell being cast off your list to kind of negate the spell.

This meant that you would ready an action, wait for the character to POSSIBLY cast a spell, and if it wasn't one you had memorized or knew then you'd have to blow a dispel magic just for a chance. (usually about 50/50 against an equal level caster but above lvl 10 you're at a disadvantage because of max caster lvl on spell)

If you could increase the likelyhood of counterspelling people would do it a lot more often. wasting a turn for a chance of blocking the big spell was usually a waste.

How about this:

Improved CounterSpelling

As a free action on your turn, you may designate a target opponent and a target school of magic. If that target begins to cast a spell with a casting time higher than swift action (no free action or swift action spells can be countered this way) then as an immediate action you may attempt to counter his spell. You take a -2 caster level penalty on your opposed caster level roll if one is required.

This would allow spell casters to pick which caster and which type of spells they wish to counter and as an incentive they'd get to counter as an immediate action. There are many ways for the caster to not get his chance (different school of magic, the caster may die or not cast a spell) but he still doesn't waste his turn and has to deal with the normal rules for counterspelling once he gets his 'bonus' chance to counter.

If you had the exact spell memorized, you could just cancel it out. If you had to use dispel magic, you're slightly penalized for doing it as an immediate action, but you've still got more use for counterspelling than just sitting around waiting for it.

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