Cleric conversion issue regarding domains - Important


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Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Ogre, if you really have a list of 100 issues regarding domains, you might want to start a thread on it.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

LazarX wrote:
Ogre, if you really have a list of 100 issues regarding domains, you might want to start a thread on it.

Takes time. Here is 7 books. I will post more as I read more books:

Book Page Feature
BoED 86 Celestial, Community, Endurance, Fey Domains
BoED 87 Glory, Herald, Joy, Pleasure, Wrath Domains
BoED 126 Barachiel NPC has spells from Good, Herald, Law Domains
BoED 127 Domiel NPC has spells from Celestial, Good, Law Domains
BoED 129 Erathaol NPC has spells from Good, Knowledge, Law Domains
BoED 131 Pistis Sophia NPC has spells from Celestial, Good, Law Domains
BoED 133 Raziel NPC has spells from Good, Law, War Domains
BoED 134 Evansheer NPC has spells from Good, Law, War Domains
BoED 135 Sealtiel NPC has spells from Good, Law, Protection Domains
BoED 137 Zaphiel NPC has spells from Good, Healing, Law Domains
BoED 142 Zyddumar NPC has spells from Strength, Sun Domains
BoED 152 Krune NPC has spells from Good, Protection Domains
BoED 170 Firre monster has spells from Chaos, Fire, Good, Magic Domains
BoED 190 Sunfly Swarm cast spells off Sun Domain
CAdv 67 Oviff NPC has spells from Good, Protection Domains
CAdv 74 Farsi NPC has spells from Destruction, Law Domains
CArc 32 Fire, Water, Sun Domains all provided Clerics access to Elemental Savants
CArc 65 Travel Domain provided Clerics access to Wayfarer Guide
CArc 30 Envy Domain provide Clerics access to Effigy Master
CArc 51 Transformation Domain provides Clerics access to Master Transmogrifist (class abilities only)
CArc 79 Extra Spell can no longer make a Domain spell a normal spell for a Cleric
CCha 9 Assembly of Balance loses methods of gaining rank (casting spells from Sun Domain)
CCha 16 Fingers of the Rogue lose benefits of affiliation (CL when casting Trickery Domain spells)
CCha 41 Sun Domain Affiliation lose benefits (CL when casting Sun Domain spells)
CCha 43 Trickery Domain affiliation lose benefits (CL when casting Trickery Domain spells)
CCha 52 Sorcerer Domain Access alternate class ability is significantly less useful
CCha 52 Wizard Domain Granted Power alternate class ability is significantly less useful
CCha 57 Charnel Miasma feat no longer functions
CCha 58 Fragile Construct feat no longer functions
CCha 60 Holy Warrior feat no longer functions
CCha 62 Spontaneous Domains feat no longer functions and has no translation
CCha 76 Shadow Guard affiliation lose benefits (CL when casting Good, Healing, Law, Strength, Sun, War Domain spells)
CCha 84 Holt Warden prestige class lose domain slots and many other benefits
CCha 88 Mythic Exemplar Imdastri lose core benefit
CCha 90 Ordained Champion Bonus Domain ability loses benefits both as Clerics and non Clerics
CCha 90 Ordained Champion Modified Spontaneous Casting ability no longer functions
CCha 90 Ordained Champion Rapid Spontaneous Casting ability no longer functions
CCha 90 Ordained Champion War Caster ability no longer functions
CCha 90 Ordained Champion Combat Feats ability no longer functions
CCha 90 Ordained Champion Continued Advancement ability loses benefits
CCha 94 Salan NPC no longer functions
CCha 95 Paragnostic Apostle Divine Understanding ability no longer functions
CCha 98 Paragnostic Initiate Mystical Augmentation ability no longer functions
CCha 99 Auleric NPC has missing features
CCha 107 Saera NPC has missing features
CCha 128 Substitute Domain spell loses half (most?) of its benefit
CCha 131 Aurial Sapphire material component loses significant benefits
CCha 132 Feather of the Far Reaches material component no longer functions
CCha 132 Obaddis Leaf material component loses significant benefits
CCha 132 Pearl of the Waves material component loses significant benefits
CCha 132 Scholar's Dreams material component no longer functions
CCha 132 Soil of Stone material component loses significant benefits
CCha 132 Sunflower of Pelor material component loses significant benefits
CCha 132 Talon of Eholnna material component loses significant benefits
CCha 133 Barbs of Hextor holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 133 Bolt of Heironeous holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Devastation of Nerull holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Obah-Hai's Green Man holy symbol no longer functions
CCha 134 Mirror of Olidammara holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Moradin's Forge holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Nugget of Garl Glittergold holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Ruby Skull of Wee Jas holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Silver Badge of Larethian holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Stone Socket of Gruumsh holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 134 Sun Disc of Pelor holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 135 Talisman of Boccob holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 135 Vanguard of Kord holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 135 Vecna's Hand and Eye holy symbol no longer functions
CCha 135 Yondalla's Cornucopia holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 135 Nature's Sickle holy symbol no longer functions
CCha 135 Nature's Children holy symbol loses significant benefits
CCha 143 Domain Staff of Death no longer functions
CCha 143 Domain Staff of Nobility no longer functions
CCha 143 Domain Staff rules no longer function
CCha 144 Domain Staff of Healing no longer functions
CCha 144 Domain Staff of War no longer functions
CDiv 20 Extra Domains rules lose significant benefits
CDiv 22 Seith NPC loses benefits
CDiv 26 Church Inquisitor prestige class lose significant benefits
CDiv 27 Chuch Inquisitor Force Shapechange ability lose benefits
CDiv 27 Darek NPC loses benefits
CDiv 31 Contemplative both Bonus Domain abilities lose the spells added to class list
CDiv 32 Serena NPC lose benefits
CDiv 33 Divine Crusader is utterly destroyed, very little (if any) of it functions with the new domain rules
CDiv 34 Golden Arrow NPC no longer functions at all
CDiv 35 Divine Oracle Oracle Domain ability no longer provides spell access
CDiv 36 Templeton NPC loses benefits
CDiv 38 Xannifer NPC loses benefits
CDiv 42 Geomancer prestige class loses benefits
CDiv 45 Rendela NPC loses benefits
CDiv 51 Psious Templare Smite ability lose benefits
CDiv 51 Graaghya NPC loses benefits
CDiv 52 Radiant Servant of Pelor prestige class is destroyed by losing all or part of 5 class abilities
CDiv 54 Thouvan NPC no longer functions
CDiv 55 Rainbow Servant prestige class loses 3 significant class abilities
CDiv 56 Anya NPC loses significant abilities
CDiv 58 Trothera NPC loses significant abilities
CDiv 57 Balance/Good/Exorcism no longer grant access to Sacred Exorcist
CDiv 60 Alaraster NPC loses significant abilities
CDiv 61 Seeker of the Misty Isle prestige class lose significant benefits
CDiv 62 Enandarrial NPC lose significant benefits
CDiv 64 Dekelor NPC lose significant benefits
CDiv 66 Krotan NPC lose significant benefits
CDiv 67 Temple Raider of Olidammara lose significant benefits
CDiv 75 A number of classes lose access to Warpriest prestige class
CDiv 75 Warpriest prestige class lose significant benefits
CDiv 76 Durgen NPC lose significant benefits
CDiv 79 Arcane Disciple feat no longer functions
CDiv 80 Domain Focus feat no longer functions
CDiv 80 Domain Spontaneity feat no longer functions
CDiv 82 Improved Smithing no longer available to non Paladins
CDiv 89 Bonus Domain epic feat no longer grants spell access
CDiv 137 Celerity, Cold, Community Domains need to be translated
CDiv 138 Competition, Creation, Domination, Dream, Force Domains need to be translated
CDiv 139 Glory, Inquisition, Liberation, Madness Domains need to be translated
CDiv 140 Mind, Mysticism, Oracle, Pact Domains need to be translated
CDiv 141 Pestilence, Purification, Summoner, Weather Domains need to be translated
CDiv WebEn Gherda NPC loses significant benefits
CDiv WebEn Entrance to Master of Shrouds is significantly limited
CDiv WebEn Wulbrin NPC loses significant benefits
CDiv WebEn Orestel NPC loses significant benefits
CDiv WebEn Marlissa NPC loses significant benefits
CDiv 26 Commerce/Inquisition/Truth no longer grant access to Church Inquisitor prestige class
CDiv 35 Several domains could grant access to Divine Oracle that no longer work
CDiv 84 Healing domain no longer grants access to Spontaneous Healer feat
CDiv 85 Gnome/Fey/Animal no longer grant access to Spontaneous Summoner feat
CDiv 85 Artificer/Destruction/Undeath no longer grant access to Spontaneous Wounder feat
CDiv 56 Leruun NPC lose significant benefits
CMag 37 Water/Slime Domain no longer provide access to Acidic Splatter feat
CMag 39 Seafolk/Blackwater/Water/Watery Death/Ocean no longer provide access to Aquatic Breath feat
CMag 40 Artificer/Good/Metal/Force/Strength/Rune/Craft/Tyranny/Moon/Greed/Vile Darkness no longer provide access to Blade of Force feat
CMag 40 Air/Seafolk/Weather/Sky/Storm/Celerity no longer provide access to Borne Aloft feat
CMag 40 Evil/Hatred/Mysticism/Orc/Purification/Dwarf/Inquisition/Law/Exorcism/Good/ Courage and a ton more no longer provide access to Clap of Thunder feat
CMag 40 Sand/Cavern/Destruction/Earth/Artificer/Halfling/Metal/Slime/Craft no longer provide access to Clutch of Earth feat
CMag 41 City/Hoard/Portal/Commerce and a ton more no longer provide access to Dimensional Jaunt feat
CMag 41 Spider/Blackwater/Dwarf/Earth/Fire/Ocean/Water/Hunger/Spider/Rune and many more no longer provide access to Dimensional Reach feat
CMag 41 Seafolk/Blackwater/Water/Watery Death/Ocean no longer provide access to Drowning Glance feat
CMag 42 Celerity/Illusion/Trickery/Gnome/Vile Darkness no longer provide access to Face-Changer feat
CMag 43 Fire/Sun/Retribution/Greed/Purification no longer provide access to Fiery Burst feat
CMag 44 Air/Seafolk/Weather/Sky/Storm/Celerity no longer provide access to Hurrican Breath feat
CMag 44 Artificer/Good/Metal/Force/Strength/Rune/Craft/Tyranny/Moon/Greed/Vile Darkness no longer provide access to Invisible Needle feat
CMag 44 Animal/Decay/Magic/Protection/Spell/Darkness/Renewal and a lot more no longer provide access to Magic Disruption feat
CMag 44 Commerce/Celestial/Mind/Destiny and a lot more no longer provide access to Magic Sensitive feat
CMag 45 Transformation/Animal/Scalykind/Greed/Spider/Drow no longer provide access to Minor Shapechange feat
CMag 45 Animal/Decay/Magic/Protection/Spell/Darkness/Renewal and a lot more no longer provide access to Mystic Backlash feat
CMag 47 Wrath/Death/Undeath/Meditation/Mental/Travel/Deathbound and a lot more no longer provide access to Sickening Grasp feat
CMag 47 Storm/Weather/Air no longer provide access to Storm Bolt feat
CMag 47 Spider/Blackwater/Dwarf/Earth/Fire/Ocean/Water/Hunger/Spider/Rune and many more no longer provide access to Summon Elemental feat
CMag 48 City/Moon/Glory/Summer/Sun/Elf/Purification and more no longer provide access to Sunlight Eyes feat
CMag 48 Elf/Hatred/Mental/Wealth/Madness/Joy and many more no longer provide access to Touch of Distraction feat
CMag 40 Spider/Blackwater/Dwarf/Earth/Fire/Ocean/Water/Hunger/Spider/Rune and many more no longer provide access to Cloudy Conjuation feat
CMag 41 Several Domains lose benefits of Dazzling Illusion feat
CMag 42 Several Domains lose benefits of Energy Abjuration feat
CMag 42 Several Domains lose benefits of Energy Gestalt feat
CMag 42 Several Domains lose benefits of Fearsome Necromancy feat
CMag 44 Several Domains lose benefits of Insightful Divination feat
CMag 47 Several Domains lose benefits of Shadow Veil feat
CMag 48 Several Domains lose benefits of Toughening Transformation feat
CMag 48 Several Domains can no longer provide access to Wind-Guided Arrows feat
CMag 48 Several Domains can no longer provide access to Winter's Blast feat
CSco 51 Argyll NPC loses significant benefits
CSco 48 Summoner Domain no longer provides access to Malconvoker prestige class
CSco 114 Bands of Fortune item can no longer be made by someone with Luck domain
CSco 115 Lucky Charm item can no longer be made by someone with Luck domain
CWar 55 Estrella NPC lose significant benefits
CWar 114 Courage, Fate Domains need to be translated
CWar 115 Nobility, Planning, Tyranny Domains need to be translated
CWar 53 Exorcism and Good Domains no longer provide access to Knight of the Chalice prestige class
CWar 90 Greed/Commerce/Renewal/Trickery/Transformation Domains no longer provide access to Warshaper prestige class
CWar 132 Summoner Domain and a few others no longer allow someone to play Conjurer's Chess


Clerics, along with druids, came out of the box broken in core with 3.5, and this has to do with two things: Clerics get domains and druids get wild shape.

A cleric's domains make them supremely powerful. 3/4 BAB, two good saves, spellcasting ability, all armor proficiencies, most shield proficiencies, simple weapons (with easy access to others), and domains. A free spell slot every level, plus the amazingly powerful domain abilities (and yes, most of them were ridiculously powerful), pushed clerics well outside of balance, further than their buff spells and miracle already did.

PRPG, page 3, under 'Compatability' wrote:
Whenever I broke this rule, it was because the other guidelines took precedence.

I bet this means that balance took precedence over compatability. I'm not Jason, but that seems like a good reason to me.


LazarX wrote:
Ogre, if you really have a list of 100 issues regarding domains, you might want to start a thread on it.

Don't look at me, I wasn't the one who promised it.

James Risner wrote:
Takes time. Here is 7 books. I will post more as I read more books:

James, I think it's safe to say that all cleric NPCs using domains will need to be either converted or used as is. How much of an issue this is is debatable, many people feel it is not a big deal, obviously you do and if you haven't been convinced by what's already been said then I don't think anyone else is going to change your mind.

In general your list still boils down to a few issues that are repeated over and over. I do see a couple more issues with converting domains and that is that domains provide access to some PrCs or Feats.

One thing I notice is that many cases you list are cases where a prereq is intended to limit a PrC or feat to a specific class and the domain is used as a backdoor method of getting into a class that wasn't designed for a cleric. I don't see that as a compatibility issue... I don't see it as an issue at all.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

James Lewis 857 wrote:

A cleric's domains make them supremely powerful.

A free spell slot every level, plus the amazingly powerful domain abilities

Fine, then take 2 spell slots per level away instead of 1 and leave the domains alone. The old domains are not nearly as powerful (as a general rule) as the new domain abilities in PRPG, so your point about the domain abilities/powers is moot.

Dennis da Ogre formerly 0gre wrote:

I don't think anyone else is going to change your mind.

I do see a couple more issues with converting domains and that is that domains provide access to some PrCs or Feats.

I hope these lists help change others minds about how damaging to the system this change really is.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

In my opinion the change to domains and spezialisation schools were done to nerf the Cleric and Wizard PrC-ing. For Wizards, there are few reasons to stay in the class after fifth level, for Clerics there are good options to PrC without even losing Turn Undead effectiveness. The new system rewards single classing.

I personally miss some of the domain powers of the old domains, but OTOH, the new abilities are perfectly fine. If some PrC´s have issues with the domains, houserule them. And the Divine Crusader sucked anyway. :P

All in all, I am perfectly okay with the new system. If it is some work to make it backward compatible, that is okay. Too much backwards compatibility hampers effective optimization.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

When running a playtest with pregen NPC clerics or Thaumaturges of Lamashtu *cough*, they can just be run as written, using the spells in their domain slots as per 3.5. In general, they tend to have more powers than a comparable Pathfinder cleric, but most everything a Pathfinder cleric of the same level could do, n unaltered cleric can do too.

I personally like that the arcane schools, bloodlines and domains now all have similar mechanics. The same way that CMB has streamlined combat maneuvers, this makes magic easier to translate from class to class and establish balance (on the adventure design/GMing side of things).

I would really hate to see this element taken away or changed too much.


James Risner wrote:
Takes time. Here is 7 books. I will post more as I read more books

James, can you post a Key for the books you reference and some indication if the content in question is OGL?

Thanks.

CJ

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

thelesuit wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Takes time. Here is 7 books. I will post more as I read more books

James, can you post a Key for the books you reference and some indication if the content in question is OGL?

CJ

BoED = Book of Exalted Deeds

CAdv = Complete Adventurer
CArc = Complete Arcane
CCha = Complete Champion
CWar = Complete Warrior
CMag = Complete Mage
CSco = Complete Scoundrel
CDiv = Complete Divine

All are non OGL books, which is the point. The new domains (unlike the new Wizard schools) breaks a ton of old content.

Liberty's Edge

I frankly don't want anything to encourage single classing. I'd prefer it if all the base classes ended at level 10 like d20 modern. My characters aren't atypical. Using a mix of base and PrCs helps me flesh them out into unique characters. Rather than a "standard rogue" I like my cat burgling Rogue/Fighter/Swashbuckler/Thief-Acrobat. Or my Military Officer Fighter/Cleric of Dol Arrah/Halberdier/Legendary Leader.

Staying in one class till 20 is always going to be dull no matter what incentives there are to it, because then your character seems like "just another [insert class]".

Besides, PrCs haven't broken 3.5, magic items have (That item in Libris Mortis that lets you get more turning attempts, healing belt from Magic Item compendium, etc). And Clerics are NOT broken, they may be a little more powerful than fighters but that's a fault of fighters not clerics, besides a little incentive to play the healer is nice.

Please please ditch the new Domain system we've already house-ruled it back to normal in my home games, but I'm not looking forward to dealing with it in society play.


Just going to chime in here, I dont like the new domains one bit.

There are prestige classes as well that require certain skill ranks or spells to get into, which were gained through domains. Adventures have to be changed, along with encounters and combat tactics (Im thinking Red Hand of Doom here, with the heavy use of the Trickery domain).

I just dont like it, its the biggest turn off to 3P for me (okay, that and the rage mechanics).


Coridan wrote:
Staying in one class till 20 is always going to be dull no matter what incentives there are to it, because then your character seems like "just another [insert class]".

What is seriously broken with D&D is that WotC found out the way to maximize profits was by upping the number of books they sold. Quality no longer mattered just volume. People's insatiable desire to 'stand out from the crowd' made it easy for them to crank out books and books filled with junky slasses, PrCs, domains, feats, magic items, spells, and races and most of it total garbage.

To be honest if having the coolest funkiest character with the newest features and bling is important to you then I suggest you try out 4e, WotC are the masters at cranking out new stuff on a regular basis. Who knows maybe this time they got it right and they will be able to get the quality part down too.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Cool colorful characters are not a bunch of stupid stats on a page they what you inject into them. Regardless of whether it's a Human Fighter 20 or a Wizard 3/ Master Specialist 7/ Abjurant Champion 3/ Archmage 5. If you need a crutch to make your characters interesting then maybe you should try playing the base classes and focus on role playing instead of being so obsessed with class features.

Some of the coolest characters I've played were generic base classes.


Varthanna wrote:
Adventures have to be changed, along with encounters and combat tactics (Im thinking Red Hand of Doom here, with the heavy use of the Trickery domain).

I actually just finished (at last) running RHoD last night. I don't really see where the new rules would present a problem here.

The stat blocks for the hobgoblin clerics and war priests have their domain spells noted with a "D" and the entries list what domains they have. Furthermore, their stat blocks have the abilities granted by the Destruction and Trickery domains included.

The Smite ability of the Destruction is listed under Attack Options and since the Trickery domain granted power is simply access to additional class skills (and all the creatures have their skills statted already), You can use them as-is without needing to do anything.

In otherwords, just because the NPCs end up following slightly different rules than the PCs doesn't mean they've lost any abilities. The work just the same as they did using the standard 3.5 rules. This reinforces my assertion in my earlier post that this is a non-issue.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Laithoron wrote:
In otherwords, just because the NPCs end up following slightly different rules than the PCs doesn't mean they've lost any abilities. The work just the same as they did using the standard 3.5 rules. This reinforces my assertion in my earlier post that this is a non-issue.

While you have a point in regards to NPCs, you don't seem to mind foreclosing these abilities from player access.


But *ALL* 3.5 compatable classes are playable in Pathfinder RPG.
It's not like trying to play a d6 or GURPS character under D&D rules.

If you REALLY REALLY like a non-SRD Domain for it's granted spells (i.e. you're not happy with a 'converted' Domain full of SLAs), go ahead and play it with the old 3.5 Cleric, Paizo will even throw in awesome new Energy Channeling that heals your allies at the same time, and makes it easier to take non-class skills, since those are mechanics changes outside of the specific classes.

So you can still play your exact same build based off of specific Domain powers and Prestige Classes they open up. You'll just have to decide if you like that more than, say, best of 2 rolls for every attack, save, and skill for 3 rounds once/ day per recipient (1st level PRPG Luck Domain ability, for example). Paizo basically just made some new classes with the same names as the old ones. You can still play any class your DM allows, same as always.

Incidentally, I personally will be looking forward to more PRPG Domains and Sorceror Bloodlines within future Pathfinder products (say... in the Osirion supplement??? Ancient Crocodile God cults... Lycanthropic Hyena or Cheetah Sorcerors??? Alien Pyramid-Building Theocrats??? :-))


James Risner wrote:
Laithoron wrote:
In otherwords, just because the NPCs end up following slightly different rules than the PCs doesn't mean they've lost any abilities. The work just the same as they did using the standard 3.5 rules. This reinforces my assertion in my earlier post that this is a non-issue.
While you have a point in regards to NPCs, you don't seem to mind foreclosing these abilities from player access.

You do realize I could turn this around by accusing You of wanting to do the same for those who actually like the new system right? ;)

Also, You shouldn't assume something that someone else hasn't said. I never advocated barring options from players.

In fact, I myself have a cleric character that I'm quite fond of who would be heavily impacted by the PfRPG domain changes. She's a spontaneous-casting cleric so the loss of domain spells from her list of spells-known would be quite a blow. However, just as the existence of such a character is contingent upon using non-core (albeit OGL) rules that require DM consent, there's no reason a DM couldn't stick with the OGL domain rules.

Granted, that's not a particularly useful position to take when trying to playtest new rules but that doesn't make it any less valid an option. The point is, the two domain systems could exist side-by-side without issue.

As far as the proposed domain system goes, I think Paizo and this community should do the best job possible of ensuring it is balanced and works well. BWC on this front requires absolutely no work. If the stat blocks are properly written once Pathfinder changes over in 2009, then someone running 3.5 and using a PF adventure should have no problem using a PF cleric in their campaign. They only run into a problem if they ignore what's actually written in the stat blocks and start assuming abilites that aren't explicitly detailed.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

If your be all and end all concern is total compatibility with all of your pile of splatbooks, quite frankly what you should be buying are Moongoose's reprints of the SRD, assuming they're still in print.


James Risner wrote:
While you have a point in regards to NPCs, you don't seem to mind foreclosing these abilities from player access.

The player is getting an alternate set of abilities so no I don't have a problem with that.

Nothing would stop you from making a cleric with the D&D 3.5 PHB. Of course then you should probably have turning would work the classic way also.


James Risner wrote:


All are non OGL books, which is the point. The new domains (unlike the new Wizard schools) breaks a ton of old content.

I don't think it has ever been the intent of Pathfinder RPG to be backwards compatible to non-SRD (and certainly not non-OGL) sources. Considering that as they are non-OGL we can't include them in publication, compensating for them seems sort of nonsensical.

CJ

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Coridan wrote:
I frankly don't want anything to encourage single classing.

I think then that you'll just have accept that you're at aesthetic odds with the creators of this game and decide where you go from there. As encouraging single classing seems to be almost as strong an imperative as what I'd prefer to call "legacy support" as opposed to backwards compatibility.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Risner wrote:
thelesuit wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Takes time. Here is 7 books. I will post more as I read more books

James, can you post a Key for the books you reference and some indication if the content in question is OGL?

CJ

BoED = Book of Exalted Deeds

CAdv = Complete Adventurer
CArc = Complete Arcane
CCha = Complete Champion
CWar = Complete Warrior
CMag = Complete Mage
CSco = Complete Scoundrel
CDiv = Complete Divine

All are non OGL books, which is the point. The new domains (unlike the new Wizard schools) breaks a ton of old content.

Also all of those are books which are either out of print or will shortly be so. For Pathfinder to tie itself too much to these things will make it a backwards looking game with very little appeal to the future. Quite frankly from my point of view while these books individually were fun to read, that along with TWO DMG's and PH's, plus 5 monster manuals was rapidly putting a heck of a load for traveling DM's and we hadn't even gotten to figures and setting materials yet.

The thing about compatibility is that for just about every printed module you can buy NONE of these splatbooks are neecessary. NPC's were typically made up of base classes or PrC's from the DMG and the spell lists were built the same way. So Pathfinder does not need to support these books for proper legacy support.

Liberty's Edge

I've seen a lot of people coming to the defense of this new system only by saying "It doesn't matter what non-PF books are involved you can just use them as is."

And as compelling an argument as that is *rolls eyes* there's still little to no good reason why this new system is actually better than the old system. As it stands now it's just needlessly complicated, it doesn't balance anything and it makes it a pain in the butt to use other material.

Please people, try to convince me what good there is to this new method beyond just 'I like it and this is what the designers are trying to do so razz on you, go play 4E'. A lot of you are new to these boards but I was one of the guys leading the charge for the 3.75 I have a vested interest in this succeeding and being good. So telling me to go play 4e is a bit out of line.


James Risner wrote:
While you have a point in regards to NPCs, you don't seem to mind foreclosing these abilities from player access.

I know I answered this but let me answer this from a slightly different point of view. A player character is a unique creation and though it's quite complex the number of times you chose class features and new class levels is fairly small... 20 times pre-epic to be precise. With player characters you have the luxury of being able to spend some time building them and the player and DM can make decisions about that character. Characters are built from the ground up and you have the luxury of time. Small changes in a PC class can have lasting impacts on the game.

A DM might come up with a dozen or even 20 NPCs in a single gaming session. If you are using a pre-made module then the NPCs are statted out ahead of time and converting them would take a significant amount of time for each gaming session. For longer term NPCs it's worth putting a little time into rebuilding them but for NPCs the players will encounter then kill in one session it's just not worth the effort and the impact on the game as a whole is quite small.


Coridan wrote:
Please people, try to convince me what good there is to this new method beyond just 'I like it and this is what the designers are trying to do so razz on you, go play 4E'. A lot of you are new to these boards but I was one of the guys leading the charge for the 3.75 I have a vested interest in this succeeding and being good. So telling me to go play 4e is a bit out of line.

This is an entirely different discussion.

Even so, I'll take a stab at it. First, much of the justification is based on the idea that
#1 the cleric is one of the most powerful core classes
#2 Domains are a big part of that power

If you don't agree with these ideas then it's likely you will not agree with any changes in the class. With those ideas in mind...

Not all domains are created equal but many domains grant the equivalent of multiple feats at first level. For example the war domain grants 2 feats to the cleric, some domains grant abilities which are even crazier than that.

The domain spells (and in particular non-core ones) often grant spells or abilities which were not typically on the cleric spell list. This was often used to shoehorn the cleric into PrCs that were not designed for the cleric. Many domain spells were just flat out not really suitable for a cleric to use.

My biggest gripe about domains and gameplay is that the domains often overshadowed the role-playing aspect of the game at early levels. Rather than picking a deity that the player thought would work well with his character concept often players would pick them based on what domains the offered access to. Class features are supposed to help role playing, not steer it.

Liberty's Edge

Dennis da Ogre wrote:


Not all domains are created equal but many domains grant the equivalent of multiple feats at first level. For example the war domain grants 2 feats to the cleric, some domains grant abilities which are even crazier than that.

I'll whole-heartedly agree not all domains are created equal. The Law/Chaos/Good/Evil ones stunk (they still do even in Pathfinder's system). Of the PHB domains though the only one to grant feats is War (Elf does but it is non-core). One of these feats Paizo is giving free to all clerics anyway.

Dennis da Ogre wrote:


The domain spells (and in particular non-core ones) often grant spells or abilities which were not typically on the cleric spell list. This was often used to shoehorn the cleric into PrCs that were not designed for the cleric. Many domain spells were just flat out not really suitable for a cleric to use.

Again looking through the core nothing screams overpowered to me. You may have to point some out.

Dennis da Ogre wrote:


My biggest gripe about domains and gameplay is that the domains often overshadowed the role-playing aspect of the game at early levels. Rather than picking a deity that the player thought would work well with his character concept often players would pick them based on what domains the offered access to. Class features are supposed to help role playing, not steer it.

This isn't going away in Pathfinder, I'm sure we'll be seeing people pick their Cleric choices based on favored weapon since they all get free proficiency. And the domains still won't all be equal.

If we wanted to instantly balance clerics we could just remove their armor proficiencies.


I just wanted to slip in the often missed fact that only Four SRD spells are Domain only: Chaos Hammer, Holy Smite, Order's Wrath, and Unholy Blight.

Holy Aura, Word of Chaos, and every other spell in the SRD is a spell on some classes spell list. And those four are spell-like abilities of the respective alignment domains. NO SRD spells will be missing from the rules because of this.

As for non-SRD spells that are only part of a non-SRD domain? Seems those would be by far the most likely spells to be abilities in the new domain, but that is beyond the point I was making.


Coridan wrote:
If we wanted to instantly balance clerics we could just remove their armor proficiencies.

Wow. I like this idea!

My biggest gripe with the cleric class (since 1ed) has been that it is modeled after the Judeao-Christian Templar Knight. This would seem to be a perfect fit for clerics who are in pseudo-medieval martial orders. But it doesn't really work for the 97 other blends of cleric/priest/holy person. I would advocate making the entire class MORE generic with add-ons that you can take to turn your cleric into a fighting-machine.

Of course, this would be far from backwards compatible and totally antiethical to nearly 20 years of clerics.

How does one create a cleric who is NOT a fighter, but rather a Holy Person Imbued with the Rightness of a Patron Deity?

On another note, I am searching the forums but have been unable to find a basic guide for converting domains that I swore someone posted at one time.

CJ


thelesuit wrote:
Coridan wrote:
If we wanted to instantly balance clerics we could just remove their armor proficiencies.
Wow. I like this idea!

It's quite intriguing for certain, let the paladin be the kick butt martial religious dude and the cleric be the robed holy man with awesome powers.

Nice thought but... ain't gonna happen, the armored to the teeth cleric is a sacred cow. People are already screaming about backwards compatibility.


Dennis da Ogre wrote:
It's quite intriguing for certain, let the paladin be the kick butt martial religious dude and the cleric be the robed holy man with awesome powers.

I wonder if you saw the 3.5 "Non-Generic Cleric" that Grindor, Dragonmann, and I designed on these boards? We made a balanced "pick list" of X class features that enabled you to build a 3.5e core cleric, a UA cloistered cleric, or just about anything in between.


Kirth Gersen wrote:
I wonder if you saw the 3.5 "Non-Generic Cleric" that Grindor, Dragonmann, and I designed on these boards? We made a balanced "pick list" of X class features that enabled you to build a 3.5e core cleric, a UA cloistered cleric, or just about anything in between.

No, I hadn't seen it (my presence on the forum only goes back to PFRPG A1 or so). It looks interesting -- there is quite a bit to read through.

CJ


thelesuit wrote:
No, I hadn't seen it (my presence on the forum only goes back to PFRPG A1 or so). It looks interesting -- there is quite a bit to read through.

A link to the final product on Grindor's site is here. No need to wade through the development discussion on the thread!

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
thelesuit wrote:
Coridan wrote:
If we wanted to instantly balance clerics we could just remove their armor proficiencies.

Wow. I like this idea!

My biggest gripe with the cleric class (since 1ed) has been that it is modeled after the Judeao-Christian Templar Knight. This would seem to be a perfect fit for clerics who are in pseudo-medieval martial orders. But it doesn't really work for the 97 other blends of cleric/priest/holy person. I would advocate making the entire class MORE generic with add-ons that you can take to turn your cleric into a fighting-machine.

Of course, this would be far from backwards compatible and totally antiethical to nearly 20 years of clerics.

How does one create a cleric who is NOT a fighter, but rather a Holy Person Imbued with the Rightness of a Patron Deity?

CJ

In Arcanis one of the specific core classes they had in addition to the Cleric was the Priest.

Main differences:

No armor. D6 hit dice. Not only not proficienct but specifically barred from wearing any conventional armor. Bracers and such were allowed as well as boost spells like magic vestment.

One Domain at first level but up to two additional domains added through class progression.

Turning Undead at Par. In Arcanis clerics typically turned at 3 levels below normal par.

Access to Rituals and spontaneous spells that were fueled by ritual points.

One other note: In Arcanis the gods had no alignment. So all of the Powers had followers of every alignment who put thier own spin on what the diety represented.

Scarab Sages

I would like to add my voice to the column of people who have stated support for the new cleric system. I think it is great. I also agree that *many* players used domains as a way to get into PrCs that were never intended for clerics and broke the system.

That aside, I would like to point out that while Pathfinder was intended to keep the 3.5 system alive, and be as backward friendly as possible, they can still only do so much. They are replacing the PHB, DMG, and MM with something that is backwards compatible with those books. They can not make things backwards compatible with everything. Simply cant happen. If you want something that is completely backwards compatible, simply don't change systems. Keep playing 3.5. Pathfinder strives to create a system that takes the best of 3.5, allows you to use your old books with minimal challenge, but still creates something new, and that they feel works better. It is a new system, plain and simple, but it is one that is very backwards friendly. There is no harm in using 3.5 characters, under the old rules, with new Pathfinder classes. Pathfinder is striving to give us the best of both worlds. Please give them a chance to do that.

We are in Alpha testing, Beta will come out soon and it has been stated that Beta will be different than Alpha. Lets look at those and go from there. Just remember that 3.P is not a reprint of 3.5 and was never intended to be. It is an evolution. No one is forcing you to evolve, stick with what you enjoy. But as for me and my group, we will be happily playing Pathfinder.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Dennis da Ogre wrote:

Even so, I'll take a stab at it. First, much of the justification is based on the idea that

#1 the cleric is one of the most powerful core classes
#2 Domains are a big part of that power

My biggest gripe about domains and gameplay is that the domains often overshadowed the role-playing aspect of the game at early levels.

I don't agree domains are the biggest part of the power of the stock 3.5 Cleric. The Paizo domains are in point of fact more powerful than the stock domains, so keeping stock domains will not increase power. Your gripe is irrelevant, since the books are not written to satisfy your role-play affinity. They are written to be used by all.

thelesuit wrote:
Coridan wrote:
If we wanted to instantly balance clerics we could just remove their armor proficiencies.
Wow. I like this idea!

I hate it, a massive sacred cow slaughtered. D&D is pretty much the only game with holy warriors as Clerics. Every other game with Clerics or Priest are robe wearing classes. I can't tell you how much I hate the concept of cloth wearing Clerics.

Erik Merickel wrote:
They can not make things backwards compatible with everything. Simply cant happen.

They can make it 90%, but the domain changes makes Clerics something like 50% compatible. It goes too far and makes the new system unusable for anyone that wishes to have any sort of even limited backward compatibility.


(This is my first post. I’d like to start off by saying how much I love what Paizo is doing with Pathfinder. Long live 3.x and dragons with 12 age categories. There are so many things you guys are doing right. Not the least of which is being open to what the community would like to see done to make the game better. From what I’ve seen most of the changes are spot on or moving in the right direction. Now, on to the discussion at hand.)

I was flipping through the new domains, and it looked like a solid 1/3 to 1/2 of the abilities were simply cast X spell 1/day. Granted that means there is a lot of new material, but I don’t see why we can’t just let domains stay as they are and give the cleric a talent tree. Maybe even add a capstone ability to each domain at 20th level that compliments the granted power or theme of the domain. This is minimal converting, and with the right talents could really add some pop. That seems like the best solution to me.

Also, a number of the problems people have mentioned (PrC shenanigans, Domain powergaming) are DM issues. Game designers can’t future proof a PrC against every book, that’s the DM’s job. A strong DM can say no to any PrC that they don’t think the character should have access to.


Laithoron wrote:
0gre wrote:
Marc Radle 81 wrote:
By the way, I'm still curious to see this list of over 100 ways the new domain rules break backward compatibility ...
Well it really boils down to 3, NPCs, Domain only spells, and non-core domains.

I don't really see this as much of a problem in terms of BWC as it is in terms of people getting to make the sort of characters they want. Even then, compatability isn't as much of a problem as preference.

I myself have a couple unique divine casters who are impacted by the change. The most notable is a cleric who uses the spontaneous divine casting rules. Obviously, for someone with a very limited number of spells known, a change like this has quite an impact eliminating about 30% of the spells she would normally know. However, working with my DM, it was a simple matter to say that she would add those domain spells to her spells known list and retain the old granted powers instead of gaining the new SLAs. In other words, no changes necessary.

As for NPCs...

If I run a 3.5 module using PfRPG rules, I'll just give the clerics a couple extra feats and use whatever spells and granted powers they have in their stat block. If I'm running a Pf module with 3.5 rules, the stat blocks should have all the SLAs defined in the entry so I can just stick to that.

Either way, not a problem.

Personally, if the new-style domains are kept, I'd be in favor of the Final rules having a brief sidebar noting how 3.5-style domains can be used alongside the PfRPG rules. +1 Domain spell at each level and You use the domain spell lists and granted powers from whatever sourcebook You have in hand.

Honestly, I just don't see the fuss so I really would like to see that entire list of 100 issues.

Although I'd like to see more of the Domain lists covered I don't see a backward compatability issue. A PC fighter built using pathfinder will have a few extra bonus's as will the mage and the cleric. I can't see why that should be an issue. Either put the PC's against them at 1 or 2 levels lower than there CR would suggest,just live with it as is or give them the couple of bonus's.

Personally I don't have the time to do the extra work so they meet the enemy as they are in the books.


One more for the list:

Dragon Issue 342 - Improved Domain Power

All in all I really like most of the new domains. But the Magic domain is a bit of a letdown for me. The old domain power was cool, the new one seems just a lame clone of the Universal School.

Since Jason hinted in another thread that domain spells (and slots?) might make some kind of comeback I'll patiently wait for the beta until I cry foul. ;-) *taps his fingers on the desk - very - patiently, ... damnit!*


thelesuit wrote:

On another note, I am searching the forums but have been unable to find a basic guide for converting domains that I swore someone posted at one time.

CJ

Domain Conversions

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