Gnome Niche Lost


Races & Classes

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airwalkrr wrote:
It is my personal belief, based mostly on nostalgia, that favored classes should be based on traditional D&D archetypes. The favored classes of dwarves should be fighter or rogue, since those were their multiclass options (not cleric, dwarves couldn't be clerics until 2nd edition). The favored classes of elves should be wizard or sorcerer (sorcerer being more a subclass of wizard IMHO). The favored classes of gnomes should be illusionist or sorcerer. The favored classes of half-orcs are probably fine as is (since we don't have an assassin base class anymore, which sucks). Halflings should have fighter and rogue.

I couldn't agree more.

I've not been deep into Pathfinder 0.33. I've just looked at the discussion here and briefly opened the PDF. But it looks to me like Pathfinder is starting to change things for change's sake. Changing the basic archetype/favored class of the iconic races means you are changing the backbone of the world. Its not DnD any more, which means you cannot use old DnD concepts and ideas.

If you want a halfling radically different from the 3.5 halfling, give it a new name.


Carl Cramér wrote:
If you want a halfling radically different from the 3.5 halfling, give it a new name.

Just about every campaign since the Blue Book has redefined gnomes and halflings (often more than once). I don't think 3.5e is any more sacred than any of the other cows.

As far as backward compatibility goes, as long as they remain short any other changes are pretty much cosmetic.

I think Pathfinder should be about choice. Perhaps establish one possible role/niche for various races and then provide ways in which that can be adapted and retooled by individual GM's.

For me halflings will always be burglars and gnomes will always be illusionists.


I think a good way would be to present/include two rather different niches for every race.

As I stated before I would think about:

Elves - arcanists (wizards) or nature-close (ranger)
Dwaves - well, ahh.. *cough*... Fighter or Clerics damnit...
Halflings - City Racoons (rogues) or adventurers (ranger)
Gnomes - Inventors (wizards) or fey-kin (druids)

Something like that.

Scarab Sages

hogarth wrote:
Viktor_Von_Doom wrote:
Gnomes had a niche?
Illusionist/thief or illusionist/cleric. But that was quite a while ago...

Fighter/Illusionist too...one of my all-time favorite characters was a F/Ill.

-Uriel


I whole-heartedly agree that halfling bonus to Cha should be changed, as probably should the bard favored class.

But the changing Cha to Int/Wis is the important change.

Sovereign Court

I'm sorry I've never been able to understand the argument where halflings get an int bonus, I can see the argument for gnomes where they are depicted a lot of times as inventors, not just in D&D and warcraft now I can accept a cha bonus for them, but int fits better.

When I see any kind of halfling depicted (even if they are named something else) they are always either charismatic or clever (not smart, clever). I can't think of a single instance where they were depicted as the intelligent race. I can accept a cha bonus for them, wisdom fits better, but Intelligence is just left field looking for the best mechanics possible.

My final vote is always going to be for gnomes to either get cha/int and halflings get wis/cha

but since both are small races and already get a str penalty they can't share the same mental bonus or the argument that gnomes don't have a niche will just continue to be valid.

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