I did not see it so I thought I would ask. Is the wizards spellbook tax still in alpha 3? IE: 100GP per page per spell level. I hate that tax!
It's one of the primary methods of preventing wizards from just getting every spell in the game. It's pretty much one of the main game mechanic ways to balance the wizard's potentially infinite spell list and bring about parity with the sorcerer.
I'd say it should stay.
I only hate it because it also sucks his money for gear.
Plus the wizards key thing is availability of all the spells. Otherwise they would be a sorcerer.
You mean it stops the wizard from getting every spell in the game until 5th level. Secret Page specifically says the new page may contain *a spell*, and is free (well, 10 minutes and a 3rd level spell/day), meaning after 5th level wizards never need pay a scribing cost again.
The spells you get each level in the class don't actually cost you anything. It's only spells you add beyond what you get upon leveling up. It's not exactly a costly procedure, and it isn't like buying a spell is for a one-use thing - a wizard's gear really should be supplementary to his spells anyway. He's not that reliant upon other tools, aside from some defensive items and stat mods. He doesn't need to buy a better sword, like a fighter. He should have to buy more spells. Those are his weapons, and if he's free of the upkeep cost of his weapons, there's a disparity.
In addition, sorcerers get less spells known that they are allowed to choose. The addition of bloodline spells in Alpha 3 gets a sorcerer almost to the same base spells known as a wizard (though he may only get those extra spells known if he doesn't prestige class out. I'm not positive there), but he doesn't get to choose some of his spells. His choice is made for him.
And that's not counting the wizard's extra spell-likes via specializations, which give him flexibility he used to lack.
All in all, it's not really that much of a "tax," any more than enchanting one's sword is a tax on the fighter.
Squirrelloid wrote: You mean it stops the wizard from getting every spell in the game until 5th level. Secret Page specifically says the new page may contain *a spell*, and is free (well, 10 minutes and a 3rd level spell/day), meaning after 5th level wizards never need pay a scribing cost again. Huh. Well, I guess that shows how seldom I do my best to break wizards. I can certainly say that I'm not a wizard expert.
Of course, having read the text of the spell, I highly doubt it's intended to give you free spells in your spell book. And I'm dubious whether it actually gives you free spells without a grossly liberal interpretation. If you're using it to make a page of text look like a spell book page, that doesn't mean you actually know the spell in question. You would still have to learn the spell. Part of the requirements of learning a spell, as per PHB, are paying the costs to scribe it. Or, I guess, you could use Spellcraft each time you wanted to prepare the spell to decipher it, as the rules for borrowing spellbooks.
In addition, Secret Page only nets you first level spells, because it only affects one page per casting.
Please consider the following:
1. Wizards using the Vancian spellcasting system of 3.5 can only use a limited number of spells per day.
2. Only an artifact or relic spellbook can hold an infinite number of spells. The wizard otherwise must account for multiple books as he/she progresses. This is the reason most old wizards maintain a library of sorts.
3. Aside from the freebies for level advancement, spells require time to learn, most often time away from adventuring. Some spells aren't easily available and require actual adventuring to obtain. Sorcerors come by their spells known through more haphazard exploration by practicing to unleash their innate talent so they don't have to travel a thousand miles or sift through a hundred pieces of arcane lore for a new spell.
Limited memorization + limited space + limited time and possibly availability
There's actually no point to the cost per page because the number of spells a wizard can know and use is already checked without the cost.
Ink to pen a spell should cost the same as ink to write a poem.
The cost should actually be the market value for copying a spell from another wizard's spellbook, particularly a spell that the other wizard recently invented or is in sole possession of.
Commonly known, non-destructive spells would likely be freely available at a city library in a magic-rich setting while dangerous spells would be jealously guarded or regulated by the more responsible or paranoid mages.
Disciple of Sakura wrote: Squirrelloid wrote: You mean it stops the wizard from getting every spell in the game until 5th level. Secret Page specifically says the new page may contain *a spell*, and is free (well, 10 minutes and a 3rd level spell/day), meaning after 5th level wizards never need pay a scribing cost again. Huh. Well, I guess that shows how seldom I do my best to break wizards. I can certainly say that I'm not a wizard expert.
Of course, having read the text of the spell, I highly doubt it's intended to give you free spells in your spell book. And I'm dubious whether it actually gives you free spells without a grossly liberal interpretation. If you're using it to make a page of text look like a spell book page, that doesn't mean you actually know the spell in question. You would still have to learn the spell. Part of the requirements of learning a spell, as per PHB, are paying the costs to scribe it. Or, I guess, you could use Spellcraft each time you wanted to prepare the spell to decipher it, as the rules for borrowing spellbooks.
In addition, Secret Page only nets you first level spells, because it only affects one page per casting. First, it specifically says it can write a spell. To pretend otherwise is to be disingenious and ignore the text of the spell.
Second, given the text of the spell, one could very well claim it allows you to record *any* spell in only one page. I prefer a more reasonable interpretation that it requires 1 casting/spell level (giving you the requisite number of pages), but given its still faster to cast *9* of them for a 9th level spell than to write a single 1st level spell by hand, this doesn't seem to provide any barriers.
Last, scribing the spell is distinct from learning the spell, and hte SRD clearly differentiates these. You can learn and use spells without scribing them (ie, mastering another spellbook, for example), and scribing a spell doesn't necessarily involve learning the spell (eg, making a backup spellbook). You check to learn the spell *before* you can try to scribe it, which also clearly differentiates the two processes. If you really want a line-by-line analysis of the spell learning/scribing text (arcane magic section of the SRD) I can do that. But its really not necessary.
Needless to say, this hardly breaks wizards. It just means that there's a 'secret' path to lower cost spells for those willing to wade through the PHB spell section to find it. This amount of system mastery is absurd, and so removing the cost to scribe spells would be perfectly reasonable (especially as recorded spells in a spellbook are, as defined in the PHB/SRD, nonmagical notations and nomenclature that describes the process of casting the spell. Ie, its the wizard's notes. Why the 100gp cost? Because back in 2nd edition the spell in the spellbook was *the spell itself*, not just notes - when that changed the cost should have gone away. Lets kill some sacred cows.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Squirrelloid wrote:
First, it specifically says it can write a spell. To pretend otherwise is to be disingenious and ignore the text of the spell.
Second, given the text of the spell, one could very well claim it allows you to record *any* spell in only one page. I prefer a more reasonable interpretation that it requires 1 casting/spell level (giving you the requisite number of pages), but given its still faster to cast *9* of them for a 9th level spell than to write a single 1st level spell by hand, this doesn't seem to provide any barriers.
Trying to go around spellcosts this way is what strikes as disingenious. If one is going to try to "secret page" a spell, you'd have to add the costs of scribig the spell to the process and you'd still be limited to 0 and 1st level spells.
There are lots of other ways for wizards to obscure thier spellbooks. (illusory script anyone?) that don't lend themselves to a cheese interpretation.
Another option would be to add a form of Spell Mastery to replace the familliar and arcane bond options, where the wizard uses a partitioned area of his mind to store the spells he or she knows. It would function like a spellbook requiring the usual daily preparation and such and it would be an unsharable book, but it would get around the spellbook issue.
LazarX wrote:
Trying to go around spellcosts this way is what strikes as disingenious. If one is going to try to "secret page" a spell, you'd have to add the costs of scribig the spell to the process and you'd still be limited to 0 and 1st level spells.
There are lots of other ways for wizards to obscure thier spellbooks. (illusory script anyone?) that don't lend themselves to a cheese interpretation.
Another option would be to add a form of Spell Mastery to replace the familliar and arcane bond options, where the wizard uses a partitioned area of his mind to store the spells he or she knows. It would function like a spellbook requiring the usual daily preparation and such and it would be an unsharable book, but it would get around the spellbook issue.
The spell says what it says. It doesn't have a costly material component. It does not require you to spend money to achieve its effect (or it would say so).
Secret Page wrote: The text of a spell can be changed to show even another spell. Completely unambiguous. You can cover your ears and talk loudly all you want, you're still wrong.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Derekjr wrote: I only hate it because it also sucks his money for gear.
Plus the wizards key thing is availability of all the spells. Otherwise they would be a sorcerer.
The wizards key thing is flexibility of choosing different spells for each occasion and having more spells known than the sorcerer, not having every spell in the player's handbook available.
I'm going to ignore the whole secret page discussion, and state that I also think that the current spellbook rules need to be tweaked. My biggest concern isn't the gp cost, but the time. There are too many plots, in both published adventures and home made stuff, that are very time sensitive. It's hard enough to fit crafting magic items into the timeline, but it shouldn't be a big penalty that the wizard wants to add new spells. I propose that scribing a spell take 1 hour and that therefore up to 8 can be scribed into a spellbook in a day.
As for cost, I think it's a bit high, I'd prefer to see it at 50gp per spell level, instead of 100.
IMC, I ruled that scribing spells into a spellbook cost half as much as scrolls - so 1/4 the 'market price' of scrolls. I had some problems with a 4-hit point wizard entering the wide world with hundreds of gold pieces worth of spells, and not getting mugged by second and third-level rogues.
The price at higher levels was starting to be an issue, so I put some house rules in about using monster parts like blood and ichor in spell ink. The party has a ranger, druid, and loremaster so harvesting monsters for parts worked with their shtick.
The time required to scribe spells is still an issue. I do really like the 2-hour rule for scrolls of less than a certain value in Alpha 3, but it won't help scroll-scribing at higher levels.
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