|
I know its close to the release of Alpha 3 but having read the minions excerpt on the wizards site I think this is well worth bringing into the pathfinder alpha test ASAP so we can see if it actually works to improve on the game.
My initial thoughts are that unlike the 4e version minions should be made backwards compatable via a minion template. simply put if you have an existing encounter with 4 kobolds and a 3rd level kobold sorcerer by turning the 4 kobolds into minions you would increase the number by a X (probably 1 +1 per 5 CR or some other funky table) so an existing encounter would become 8 kobolds and a 3rd level sorcerer.
Thoughts?
Gods no. Please no minion rules.....gods How I hate that.Like the poster above use 1 HP kobold,goblins or small children might as well.
I'd be in favor of a workable mob mechanic for mass combat purposes instead.
I'd be in favor of a workable mob mechanic for mass combat purposes instead.
Something like a swarm would work well for mass combat groups.
not sure but something like a swarm could work for using large battle. "Killing " the mob or swarm in such a unit just scatters it or makes if retreat or fall back. I been toying with using something like this to hold large battles .
I myself think that 1 hp minions is probably my least favorite concept that I've seen come out of 4E.
Director of Brand Strategy
|
Having played 4e, I can say that minions are more annoying than they sound in concept. I think that the direction PRPG is going by updating 3.5 is great and that simply using it as an excuse to emulate 4e stuff is a bad idea. If you like 4e, play 4e. But please keep it out of my new version of 3.x.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
As an aside, since the heroes (amusing typo, almost typed hetroes) are getting more HP at first level, doesn't that mean that the band of kobolds are more mooks anyway? (frex, 2 goblins and a goblin bard in Burtn offerings are a lot less scary if you have 20 hp instead of 12)
not sure but something like a swarm could work for using large battle. "Killing " the mob or swarm in such a unit just scatters it or makes if retreat or fall back. I been toying with using something like this to hold large battles .
I've been using the mob mechanics from the DMG 2 to do large battles for a couple of years now. They work great in my opinion as long as your party is willing to accept a higher level of abstraction. The first time my 9th level PCs beat four mobs of orcs (200 orcs) they were totally pumped. I've gone larger scale since then using mobs on both sides.
The only major rules change I added was that the feats cleave, great cleave, and combat reflexes all give you a cumulative +1d6 damage bonus on all attacks against a mob. This is becuase the triggering mechanic for the extra attacks these feats would grant are eliminated by using mobs which is really the situation you would expect them to come into play most often. Likewise Whirlwind attack grants a +2d6 bonus on all attacks against mobs.
|
|
Why not just place a bunch of 1hp kobolds instead of worrying about a minion template?
The primary reason is that this breaks down once you get to higher levels. 1hp kobolds have AC and Attack bonuses that are meaningless to a character of that level. The kobold will only ever hit on a natural 20 and the players know that.
So it's not just "minions" it's "level appropriate minions" that would be interesting. Minions that might actually get a shot in before they're killed. It's more of a cinematic flare for the game really.
And, by the way, I don't see it needing to be a part of Pathfinder. Might be interesting as an optional rule written up on the boards here or something.
|
|
I wasn't really looking at the use of minions for large scale combat, more to provide a better defined representation of the different between cannon fodder and the main bad guys.
My reason for wanting this as part of the alpha is because I feel that this kind of approach to dealing with weaker monsters would heavily influence new DMs decision to pick up Pathfinder RPG over 4e. Wizards main target for 4e is strongly pointing at making it easier for new players to take up the DMs throne and by making combat more easy to manage this same effect could easily entice new players to pathfinder while remaining virtually 95% backwards compatible.
At higher levels (say CR 15) the effect wouldn't see the PCs up against 100s of CR 1 creatures but more like 10 or 12 CR 12 minions and a CR 16 boss instead of the regular 4 CR 12 and CR 16 boss. This would theoretically grant that boss the benefit of a few rounds grace while the party tries to get close to him compared to a DM having to throw at the PCs 10 lower CR creatures which have next to no chance of hitting the characters for the same effect. The problem with the 4 CR 12s is that against a party of 4 there is always the possibility one or more PCs will get to the Boss without encountering a single CR 12.
Again the minion template would also grant Pazio the ability to generate slim-lined stat blocks to fit into their modules without having to force DMs to refer to other books to fill in the blanks. One of my biggest problems with Burnt Offerings was the fact that all the quick stat entries (mostly used for goblins and goblin dogs) missed important information (such as initiative modifiers, saves, and grapple modifiers) while I appreciate some of this information was left off due to copyright as well as space limitations, by creating a minion entry standard creatures could be better handled with minimal additional space. by providing DMs with all the necessary information to run an encounter without additional note making or timely referencing the game as a whole will entice inexperienced DMs while providing a more fluid gaming experience for veterans.
|
|
I'd just like to add that this is probably the first and only rule that I have seen in 4e that I feel deserves integrating completely into Pathfinder.
While there are a lot of good rules decisions coming from 4e most are something I will simply house rule in and to incorporate wholly would prove troublesome for backwards compatibility.
I agree the 1 hit point rule doesn't sound all that appealing from a conversion standpoint and perhaps should be based on the HD of the creature instead. It would prevent 15th level wizards carrying round wands of fireballs created at 5th CL just to dispatch minions.
not sure but something like a swarm could work for using large battle. "Killing " the mob or swarm in such a unit just scatters it or makes if retreat or fall back. I been toying with using something like this to hold large battles .I've been using the mob mechanics from the DMG 2 to do large battles for a couple of years now. They work great in my opinion as long as your party is willing to accept a higher level of abstraction. The first time my 9th level PCs beat four mobs of orcs (200 orcs) they were totally pumped. I've gone larger scale since then using mobs on both sides.
The only major rules change I added was that the feats cleave, great cleave, and combat reflexes all give you a cumulative +1d6 damage bonus on all attacks against a mob. This is becuase the triggering mechanic for the extra attacks these feats would grant are eliminated by using mobs which is really the situation you would expect them to come into play most often. Likewise Whirlwind attack grants a +2d6 bonus on all attacks against mobs.
How do your players deal with the fact that their 8 die fireball should kill a 20' square CR 8 mob of ordinary orcs, but in fact do only 32 points of damage (due to the +50 percent Area of Effect damage boost) to a mob with like 135 HP? Or do you have the fireball eliminate single creatures within the mob, imposing negative levels on the mob based on the number of individual orcs killed?
I hope they dont put these rules in
I have not seen anything from 4th ed i like this is just another one of thouse dumbing down factors and make it more like an MMO
just my 2 cents
I do object to basing such a concept off the 4e minion rules, however, as those rules contain some oddities like minions not being able to be killed by fireballs and the like.
Actually you are perfectly capable of killing minions with fireballs. I am familiar with the discussion that you are referencing though (from the DDXP). It's one of many examples of people drawing conclusions based on only partial knowledge of the rules (not saying you, but the people that started this rumor).
The way it actually works is that minions die when they take any damage but they never take damage from "misses" (original speculation was that if an attack didn't target AC it couldn't kill a minion). In 3rd edition terms it amounts to them having evasion. Fireballs (and other AE) are great for clearing them out, but don't auto kill every minion in their radius.
As for whether or not it should be in PFRPG....I can't say. What I can say is that there's no way that it WILL be in there.
The primary reason is that this breaks down once you get to higher levels. 1hp kobolds have AC and Attack bonuses that are meaningless to a character of that level. The kobold will only ever hit on a natural 20 and the players know that.
So it's not just "minions" it's "level appropriate minions" that would be interesting. Minions that might actually get a shot in before they're killed. It's more of a cinematic flare for the game really.
And, by the way, I don't see it needing to be a part of Pathfinder. Might be interesting as an optional rule written up on the boards here or something.
The solution is already built into the system...
If you wanted to simulate minions for higher level characters, say hill giants for instance, why not just give them the minimum hps that they could possibly get? I might try this myself for fun actually. My players are 15 & 16th level, and are currently running through the city of Kongen Thulnir, in the Age of Worms Campaign (excellent campaign by the way). It's filled with giants... they'd love to throw down with 20 or so of them.
The solution is already built into the system...
If you wanted to simulate minions for higher level characters, say hill giants for instance, why not just give them the minimum hps that they could possibly get? I might try this myself for fun actually. My players are 15 & 16th level, and are currently running through the city of Kongen Thulnir, in the Age of Worms Campaign (excellent campaign by the way). It's filled with giants... they'd love to throw down with 20 or so of them.
Because minions die in one hit.
|
|
The solution is already built into the system...
If you wanted to simulate minions for higher level characters, say hill giants for instance, why not just give them the minimum hps that they could possibly get? I might try this myself for fun actually. My players are 15 & 16th level, and are currently running through the city of Kongen Thulnir, in the Age of Worms Campaign (excellent campaign by the way). It's filled with giants... they'd love to throw down with 20 or so of them.
Well, no, it's not "built into the system". You and I can do it, certainly, because you are obviously a smart fellow and think to just set their HP to minimum and use that. I know that seems obvious to you, but not all DM's would think of that.
When I'm thinking about rules I always try to assume a fresh DM who needs a bit of direction. It's like writing documentation - never assume the viewer knows as much as you.
Right, so if you *were* going to design that, how would you do it? Set their HP to the minimum? Does that balance out in the Hill Giant example? How many hp would the 20 hill giants have each and total?
Pete
Because minions die in one hit.
But his idea is a nice compromise.
The offensive side of things could be a bit unpleasant though. 4e minions do a set amount of dmg when they hit that is less than normal for similar level non-minions. 20 level appropriate 3e monsters are going to work over your melee types something awful...still its the foundation for a good idea.....for those that are interested in pursuing it. Obviously some sort of significant xp reward reduction would also be called for.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
How do your players deal with the fact that their 8 die fireball should kill a 20' square CR 8 mob of ordinary orcs, but in fact do only 32 points of damage (due to the +50 percent Area of Effect damage boost) to a mob with like 135 HP? Or do you have the fireball eliminate single creatures within the mob, imposing negative levels on the mob based on the number of individual orcs killed?
Even though the 28pts of damage on average of an 8d6 fireball would kill 40 standard orcs, the 42 pts of damage (28*1.5) done to a Mob of orcs doesn't kill it because they're supposed to be a tougher opponent. 40 standard orcs would barely give experience to the party, but the Mob template makes them a viable challenge. It might push the abstraction of play a bit, but a 12th level party vs. 4 mobs makes for might dramatic play!
I think using multiple mobs for small scale mass combat against a party of adventurers is a fantastic idea. I will more than likely implement that idea some time soon!
Why does a minion always need to die in one hit? I would like to think that a fire giant "minion" could concievably have chance to survive at least one hit from a human's great sword. To be honest, I would not be surprised if many of the minions I would create in our next session dying in one or two hits anyway. The PCs, can certainly slay the giants presented in that adventure in one round of full attack as it is now.
Pete Apple, I had thought about that very thing you brought up about fighter types getting mauled right after I posted. I'll have to play-test and see. We are playing this weekend. Somehow, I don't think it looks good for the giants.
|
|
Because minions die in one hit.But his idea is a nice compromise.
The offensive side of things could be a bit unpleasant though. 4e minions do a set amount of dmg when they hit that is less than normal for similar level non-minions. 20 level appropriate 3e monsters are going to work over your melee types something awful...still its the foundation for a good idea.....for those that are interested in pursuing it. Obviously some sort of significant xp reward reduction would also be called for.
I would think it's reasonable to have the minions do fixed damage (based upon weapon+str or whatever) just to make things easier for the DM. That's the point of it really, implementing a group attack while still making it manageable for the DM.
There are several problems with introducing 1 HP minions (especially at higher levels) into a 3.5 game (and probably Pathfinder as well) not least of which is magic missile. One first level spell tossed off by a ninth level caster equals five automatically dead minions unless they have spell resistance or some protection against magic missile. I have no idea if you get multiple missiles in 4E with the magic missile spell but I gather that at least you have to make an attack roll to hit, which in theory gives minions a small chance of avoiding being mown down.
Yes, another reason for using the Hit Point range of the actual monsters to adjust survivability. Personally, I don't think there needs to be a rule of this sort at all. But it is a nice concept that has been brought up. I'm sure experienced DMs have been doing things of this sort already rather than always using the average hps... I know I have... but it's usually to give the monsters more hps. Sometimes it's nice to see the monsters live past round four.
I need a special rule to have a 1 hp monster?
You can do that already. ANY monster or npc can be a 1 hp creature.
I think the minion is simple something the 4E designers instituted that's been a part of many DMs' playbooks for a long, long time.
Even though the 28pts of damage on average of an 8d6 fireball would kill 40 standard orcs, the 42 pts of damage (28*1.5) done to a Mob of orcs doesn't kill it because they're supposed to be a tougher opponent. 40 standard orcs would barely give experience to the party, but the Mob template makes them a viable challenge. It might push the abstraction of play a bit, but a 12th level party vs. 4 mobs makes for might dramatic play!I think using multiple mobs for small scale mass combat against a party of adventurers is a fantastic idea. I will more than likely implement that idea some time soon!
Thanks for the math adjustment. I was in a hurry.
My point, however, remains, which is that the game's abstractions push the storytelling plausibility more than some people are comfortable with. The fire ball should kill the mob because it should kill every individual in the mob, even those who save.
In short, a Paizo re-tooling of the mob/crowd encounter would fill a niche with a great deal of demand, as many DMs find the war genre appealing, but one that's been poorly served in the past.
|
|
Yes, another reason for using the Hit Point range of the actual monsters to adjust survivability. Personally, I don't think there needs to be a rule of this sort at all. But it is a nice concept that has been brought up. I'm sure experienced DMs have been doing things of this sort already rather than always using the average hps... I know I have... but it's usually to give the monsters more hps. Sometimes it's nice to see the monsters live past round four.There are several problems with introducing 1 HP minions (especially at higher levels) into a 3.5 game (and probably Pathfinder as well) not least of which is magic missile. One first level spell tossed off by a ninth level caster equals five automatically dead minions unless they have spell resistance or some protection against magic missile. I have no idea if you get multiple missiles in 4E with the magic missile spell but I gather that at least you have to make an attack roll to hit, which in theory gives minions a small chance of avoiding being mown down.
I think that having them die with one hit is just a simplification to benefit the DM. It's one of those "play speed" vs "simulate" trade offs.
If I'm in the heat of describing the zombie horde pouring in through the boarded up doors and windows do I really want to worry about writing -2 hp on zombie #17? Probably not. At least it's good to have an option either way, youknowwhatImean?
And yes, there are plenty of spells (like magic missle) that would just pop a few minions. I don't see that as a problem really. You've only got so many of those to use.
As far as initiative goes, even if the PC's win initative and pop a few of the minions, that's fine. The whole idea is to give them enough to keep them busy for a few rounds at least.
And yes, I've been doing it for years, so it's nice to see something like it written up with some mechanics.
One of my favorites was a portal to the negative plane which spouted undead minions every minute if a living person was within 30 feet. First 1 skeleton came out. They killed it easily. They started checking out the portal. A minute later 2 skeletons popped out. Again easily dispatched. A bit more reading. Then 4 skeletons. Cleric turned them. Then 8 skeletons. That required a turn, as well as some fighting. (btw, we were all C.S. geeks so at this point the 1/2/4/8 sequence started to sink in on them.) At 16 skeletons the fighters and thief just kept them occupied while the wizard and cleric started reading the text around the portal. The cleric had to heal the fighter but they dealt with it. 32 skeletons came out and they were able to figure out to keep far enough back and blast them. They then used scrying to decode the symbols and shut down the portal. Fun times!
Are the rules in the DMG2 the same or similar to the mob rules used in the Shackled City AP, perchance? Those worked quite well.
|
RPG Superstar 2013 Top 4, RPG Superstar 2011 Top 16
|
Are the rules in the DMG2 the same or similar to the mob rules used in the Shackled City AP, perchance? Those worked quite well.
Yep those are one and the same. They're also the rules used to make the Mob of Fiendish Baboon in "Here There Be Monsters."
I don't own DMGII so am not familiar with these rules. Could you paraphrase them? Do they essentially perform the same function using different mechanics? Btw, DMGII is non-OGL, right?
Basically the Mob template takes a large group of small, medium, or large creatures and makes them a big swarm. They are considered a 30HD creature or so, get massive bonuses to overrun and grapple attacks and do damage to you without needing to hit. For every individual creature you kill by targeted spell you give the Mob a negative level and when the negative levels = it's HD the mob disperses. Area of effect spells do 50% more damage and reducing the Mob to 0 hps disperses them. The Mob Template is a generally a CR 8 monster.
The mob rules in the DMG 2 are virutally identical to the mob rules from the Shackled City adventures. I think the only thing they removed from Shackled City was the fast healing of the mob if there are people around who can join into it (which makes sense to me so I use it when appropriate).
roguerouge, non of my players have had a problem with the fire-ball abstraction issue that you mention because they almost never fireball a single mob. They use fireball the exact same way they always do, they try to catch multiple mobs in it. If the fireball touches just one square of a 20x20 mob the whole mob takes damage x 1.5 so the abstraction functions in reverse as well (only 1 guy with 8 hitpoints should have been hit by it, but the mob suffers 42 pts of damage).
When they fireball three or four mobs and inflict over a hundred points of damage they just jump for joy.
I describe it to them as a vast number of enemies dying, clearing out the radius of the fireball, but the crush of bodies immediately fills it back in, and we continue on with the fight.
Likewise the fighters with cleave and great cleave love hammering a mob because every hit gets bonus dice of damage (due to my house rule) and they rack up some huge damage numbers.
Mobs and Minions actually serve two different functions. Mobs make "throwaway" low hit dice monsters more dangerous, as they act in conjunction and still do damage to PCs, and minions are intentionally only in an encounter to make a PC waste an action getting through them.
However, you can do both easily in 3.5. A minion is just a monster with 1 hit point. The concept is fine for "controlling" where and PCs move and what the BBEG can do while the PCs are busy, but no rule is really needed for this.
I would, however, like to see a Pathfinderized version of a mob though.
|
|
Basically the Mob template takes a large group of small, medium, or large creatures and makes them a big swarm. They are considered a 30HD creature or so, get massive bonuses to overrun and grapple attacks and do damage to you without needing to hit. For every individual creature you kill by targeted spell you give the Mob a negative level and when the negative levels = it's HD the mob disperses. Area of effect spells do 50% more damage and reducing the Mob to 0 hps disperses them. The Mob Template is a generally a CR 8 monster.
So... hmmm... I understand what you're saying here. I mean it's basically an extension of the swarm template that in the SRD. To me this exrapolates them too far.
I don't feel this is the same. Swarms/Mobs remove the tactics from the situation. You're just trying to damage an area instead of individual creatures. Minions may only have 1hp but they're still individual creatues you have to deal with. I also don't like auto-damage. Minions could affect the wizard much more than the fighter if they gang up on him.
A "mob" of hill giants that is some area of effect (how big of an area is that anyway?) vs. 20 hill giant minions mixed in with 5 or 6 beefier hill giant sarges is a very different sort of battle. Who's a mook? Who's a sarge? Who's attacking the wizard? It's a different "feel".
I am personally keeping list of 4th Edition ideas I will consider house ruling. As suggested earlier, a high CR creature with minimum hit points should do the trick. High level characters tend to do a lot of damage so most 'Mooks' will drop quickly.
From a PRPG perspective, I think the polite thing would be to leave 4th Edition ideas alone. Only go for ideas that are original, really broken, or 'totally obvious' (like elimating re-iterative attacks).
P.S. I know re-iterative attacks stayed in PRPG.
|
In my opinion this would be a ghastly idea for PFRPG, but a great idea for a community generated optional rule. In case folks have forgotten, PFRPG exists largely because a segment of the community doesn't like 4ed. There is no need to officially integrate such uniquely 4ed rules into our 3.P
However, since we do have a large and creative community here, an exploration of how such rules work with 3.P would make a fascinating thread. I imagine it would help to point out the differences inherent in the 2 systems and identify areas of compatibility. But overall, I have to vote a big no to the OPs suggested idea.
I don't think it is at all possible, because the minion rules most certainly are not OGL.
I've read through most of the posts and I think I agree with one of the first posters. Why not just make a template based on the difference between the EL of the encounter and the CR of the "minion". Minions should be something that is a credible threat, even if they die in one hit. That's how heroes are born, right?
The template could read something like - half the HP's of what is in the stat block, plus give them a +1 per CR different from the EL to attack and damage.
Yeah, they may drop in one hit, but if the PC's just ignore them, they will do damage to the PC. Hindering the PC against the main foe. Which IMHO is the reason for having minions/mooks to begin with. It also gives PCs a real reason to take feats like Whirlwind and Great Cleave.
This way a CR 1 creature used as a minion in a EL 5 fight would gain a +4 to attack and damage. Which should lower the die roll needed to hit from a natural 20 to a 18 or 19. Not the best odds, but gives a better chance and makes them more than just something to laugh at.
I hope they dont put these rules in
I have not seen anything from 4th ed i like this is just another one of thouse dumbing down factors and make it more like an MMO
just my 2 cents
Except I don't remember any MMO have any minions or other significant creatures that die in one hit.
I'm of two minds about minions. On the one hand I don't think such rules are apporiate for most encounters a party encounters (i.e. the famous "Orcs in the 10x8 room guarding a treasure chest" situation). However, they are good for the kind of climatic showdowns where the villian shouts "KILL THEM" and a horde of mooks appears for the PC's to chop their way through (think the Crazy 88 in Kill Bill).
So yeah, minions might make a good optional rule, but certainly shouldn't be the standard.
|
|
The primary reason is that this breaks down once you get to higher levels. 1hp kobolds have AC and Attack bonuses that are meaningless to a character of that level. The kobold will only ever hit on a natural 20 and the players know that.
First off, if you have 20-40 low-level monsters, odds are a couple get a critical or two, and they still serve as a distraction (getting in the way, attacks of opportunity, flanking, and so on).
Second, and this is the most important point, it IS balanced when you are aware of and employ all of the combat rules:
Getting mass grappled by a gang of hobgoblins can bring down most spellcasters.
Aid Another is the most underused mechanic in 3.X.
Roll to hit AC 10 and you give an ally a +2 bonus to hit or to AC. If 7 opponents Aid Another to an allies attack, the main villain gets potentially +14 to hit or AC - that is much better than just having a bunch of guys doing a standardized weapon damage ("Ah, just ignore the guard, he has only done 4 damage and I have 5 hp left anyway")
Start using Aid Another and parties will care about the "useless" monsters running around in combat.
|
I have drifted a lot of True20 stuff into my house rules and the theme of the minion mechanic was one thing I implemented for those “Crazy 88” type battles. They go like this.
- Minions have HP equal to half the EL of the minion encounter. (We assume that most characters can deal damage per hit equal to half their level)
- Minions cannot crit.
- Minions that fumble provoke an AoO from any PC in range including those using missile weapons.
- PCs cannot “crit” but each attack that would threaten at crit gain a bonus attack (and a free additional 5’ step) that round.
- Minions attack at their normal ability but all damage dice rolls are assumed to have been rolled a 2
- PCs do max damage on all attacks
- Area effect damage is allocated to the minions in range 1 at a time until there isn’t enough damage left to kill the next. Remainder is lost.
- Minions fail saves by % of total number. Minion Save Value/DC=%, that number of them within effect make the save.
As DM I just print out a grid with minions represented as circles and cross off each one as they fall. Simple record keeping. You only need one attack number, damage number AC & saves off to the side to keep track. I have run about half a dozen of these and they ran fast and were fun for the players who felt truly heroic after they waded through.
Note: This works for us because the Wizards and Sorcerers have access to feat based, low level, arcane energy attacks so they don’t burn spells in minion encounters. PRPG wizards and sorcerers have similar "at will" attacks to use in most cases so should work fine there too.