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Paizoians, I need your advice...
Is it possible for a lycan to become undead? More specifically, intelligent undead [Vampire, Lich]? If so, then what would the form of the undead be? Would the undead be in the hybird/base/animal form? would it stay in that form or would it be able to change form like a living lycan? What do you think about natural vs. infected forms of lycanthropy being undead? What form would show if the lycan was changed into a incorporeal undead?
Thanks in advance.
I had this come up in a game. Pathfinder playtest really. I didn't let it carry over to a ghoul since its a biological function. However a vamp still has a biology of sorts so maybe it would have on them...but same could be said for a ghoul right. So undead with a biology of sorts I would give 1-5 % of carrying over from life.
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I had this come up in a game. Pathfinder playtest really. I didn't let it carry over to a ghoul since its a biological function. However a vamp still has a biology of sorts so maybe it would have on them...but same could be said for a ghoul right. So undead with a biology of sorts I would give 1-5 % of carrying over from life.
Is it a normal biological function or is it the result of a disease [SRD claims that lycanthropy can spread LIKE a disease]? If it is a disease, then what does it take for the disease to live? living tissue or something else?
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I had this come up in a game. Pathfinder playtest really. I didn't let it carry over to a ghoul since its a biological function. However a vamp still has a biology of sorts so maybe it would have on them...but same could be said for a ghoul right. So undead with a biology of sorts I would give 1-5 % of carrying over from life.Is it a normal biological function or is it the result of a disease [SRD claims that lycanthropy can spread LIKE a disease]? If it is a disease, then what does it take for the disease to live? living tissue or something else?
the original werewolf stories i had heard tell it as a disease - I would think that the subject would have to be living so as the grow the fur/teeth and then for the skin to grow back... without the body's regenerative functions working, I doubt these would be able to grow back in time
The other hang-up that I run into is that in a lot of stories, a side effect of lycanthropy is accelerated healing, which would seem like it would fight with death or undeath until one of the afflictions eradicates the other. Dying or becoming undead would seem to be an epic fail of the lycanthropy.
well is it an infected or a naturl one?
Paizoians, I need your advice...
Is it possible for a lycan to become undead? More specifically, intelligent undead [Vampire, Lich]? If so, then what would the form of the undead be? Would the undead be in the hybird/base/animal form? would it stay in that form or would it be able to change form like a living lycan? What do you think about natural vs. infected forms of lycanthropy being undead? What form would show if the lycan was changed into a incorporeal undead?Thanks in advance.
In my opinion, i could see allowing it in a campaign, but i personally wouldn't allow a player to have it, unless it was played/viewed as an unwanted affliction and was actively being worked towards being remedied. I also would make it a distinct difference from a normal lycanthrope in appearance. Libris Mortis already added in a shapeshifting template for undead (swarmshifter) and vampires have been able to assume animal forms since conception.
For the case of nonintelligent undead, like zombie, i would apply the template to whichever form the Lycan was in when he was deceased and not have the ability to shapechange. It would function very much like a normal 'monster zombie' type.
For intelligent undead, i would allow the ability for switching forms, but there would be fairly obvious distinctions, they'd eb hard to mistake for a 'normal' animal.
Ghoulish Lycan : An emanciated animal, missing patches of fur. Its eyes are glazed over, but it seems to stare directly at you. its jaws are filled with teeth that seem to big for its muzzle, and a tongue lolls out the side, seeming disturbingly longer then naturally possible. It moves closer, a hunter stalking its prey and you hear the click of long dirty nails, almost like a cat's claws from its paws as it moves over the stone floor.
Lycan Mummy : Possibly mistaken for an interred anubis, this wolf-headed mummy's eyes glow a malevolent red, and tufts of fur have burst from between the tight wrappings that cover it from ankle to wrist. Its hands and feet are oversized and clawed, the wrappings around them having been shredded long ago. Its very appearance has your insides knot in an unnatural fear as you realise it's both aware of you, and moving closer.
thats two examples of monsters that would be entertainingf or me, the GM to throw at my party, and i don't see why i shouldn't indulge.
**edited for typically glaring spelling errors!
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In 3E, this could not work, as Shapechanger was a creature type, but 3.5 is fair game since its now a subtype.
Furthermore, the vampire is the undead that breaks the undead rules. Undead cannot change shape(Undead cannot Wildshape without a feat from BoVD, and Wildshape is based upon lycanthropes shapechange ability), except for the Vampire, as it is explicitly stated in their template.
It only makes sense, however, if the creature in question aquires its lycanthropic nature before becoming a vampire; as lycanthropism is a disease and vampires are undead.
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Speaking of lycans how about a race that that can shift
from a animal (winter wolf) to human and back.
They would be like lycans but their born with
it and can't infict other people with it.
Thanks.
(I would to make have winter wolves as a PC
race with the above condition.)
Any help would be very helpful.
In 3E, this could not work, as Shapechanger was a creature type, but 3.5 is fair game since its now a subtype.
Furthermore, the vampire is the undead that breaks the undead rules. Undead cannot change shape(Undead cannot Wildshape without a feat from BoVD, and Wildshape is based upon lycanthropes shapechange ability), except for the Vampire, as it is explicitly stated in their template.
It only makes sense, however, if the creature in question aquires its lycanthropic nature before becoming a vampire; as lycanthropism is a disease and vampires are undead.
There are also many examples where the rules are 'bent' to cater to flavor a feel the GM is wishing to create.
ex: in Eyes of the Lich Queen we have a half-dragon mummy. They even have a small paragraph saying they knew it was an invalid combo, but rolled with it anyways as it helped stay with the atmosphere they were wishing to convey.
Basically, i am saying if you want to use them, do it. There are ample existing examples of similar.
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Paizoians, I need your advice...
Is it possible for a lycan to become undead? More specifically, intelligent undead [Vampire, Lich]? If so, then what would the form of the undead be? Would the undead be in the hybird/base/animal form? would it stay in that form or would it be able to change form like a living lycan? What do you think about natural vs. infected forms of lycanthropy being undead? What form would show if the lycan was changed into a incorporeal undead?Thanks in advance.
It seems simple to me, only lycans who become liches or vampires (and maybe ghosts, to a lesser extent) retain their lycan abilities. The reason for this is that the lich and vampire (and ghost)are templates which specifically say under Special Attacks and Special Qualities, "A lich/vampire(/ghost) retains all the base creature's special attacks/qualities as well as those described below." The ghost is a tricky issue, due to its being incorporeal.
Lycans cannot become any other type of undead and retain their lycan abilities,intelligent or not, due to the fact that all other types are either only an entry (ghoul/vampire spawn/mummy) or their template removes those abilities (skeleton/zombie)
That being said, I've always thought it would have been a better idea to make most undead a template (especialy those that create spawn).
Edit: I've always thought of Lycanthropy as a curse, not a disease. Sure, you can try to cure lycanthropy with a remove disease or heal spell, but that just never sat right with me. Just my 2 c.p.
In the 3.0 adventure 'path' episode Heart of Nightfang Spire, there was an interesting case of "flavour over rules":
Oggunon was among the first returned to unlife with the heart, as a vampire. Unfortunately, he had a difference of opinion with Gulthias. For his trouble, Gulthias had him cremated (see Level 5) and his ashes mixed with many other former cultists in a similar state. Then, Gulthias had an idea. He used the heart on Oggunon and the rest of the ashes. Touched by Gulthias's will backed by the power of the heart, Oggunon (and others) returned, horribly twisted in mind and body.
Oggunon was a Vampire Gibbering Mouther- a combination which was, by rules alone, impossible- but made for a really interesting encounter and had a lot of wierd, creepy flavour. I'm surprised Nicolas Logue didn't have something to do with writing this adventure. :D
It is not for a PC, but NPC's in the campaign.
This makes me say yes, its A-OK.
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It only makes sense, however, if the creature in question aquires its lycanthropic nature before becoming a vampire; as lycanthropism is a disease and vampires are undead.
Reviewing both in the SRD, Lycanthropy is acts like a disease but can be healed with remove curse? So is it a disease or is it a curse that would stay with the being after death?
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Lycans cannot become any other type of undead and retain their lycan abilities,intelligent or not, due to the fact that all other types are either only an entry (ghoul/vampire spawn/mummy) or their template removes those abilities (skeleton/zombie)That being said, I've always thought it would have been a better idea to make most undead a template (especialy those that create spawn).
Edit: I've always thought of Lycanthropy as a curse, not a disease. Sure, you can try to cure lycanthropy with a remove disease or heal spell, but that just never sat right with me. Just my 2 c.p.
So under the template that removes those abilities, would it remove the lycanthropy as well? Or do I have zombies running around that can spread lycanthropy thru their natural attacks? or ghouls, etc?
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So under the template that removes those abilities, would it remove the lycanthropy as well? Or do I have zombies running around that can spread lycanthropy thru their natural attacks? or ghouls, etc?
Lycans cannot become any other type of undead and retain their lycan abilities,intelligent or not, due to the fact that all other types are either only an entry (ghoul/vampire spawn/mummy) or their template removes those abilities (skeleton/zombie)That being said, I've always thought it would have been a better idea to make most undead a template (especialy those that create spawn).
Edit: I've always thought of Lycanthropy as a curse, not a disease. Sure, you can try to cure lycanthropy with a remove disease or heal spell, but that just never sat right with me. Just my 2 c.p.
If it is a curse or a disease depends on your interpretation, I'll check my dragon issues when I get home, I think that an early Paizo issue was mostly werewolf stuff...
I think that your interpration of curse or disease leads to the answer to your initial questions... if you view it as a curse, then it is magical in nature and can exist post-death. If it is a disease, then when the subject dies, the bacteria/virus would most likly slowly die out (might be able to transform for a little while, but would take longer, or be less of a complete transformation the longer he was dead. Then again - there's always the "the Real Ghostbusters" episode were the vampires and werewolves fought and turned upon bite...
Paizoians, I need your advice...
Is it possible for a lycan to become undead? More specifically, intelligent undead [Vampire, Lich]?
I would make it an incredibly rare occurrence similar to the existence of Abominations (Vampire Werewolves) in the Old World of Darkness. Most of the time, the embrace/contamination of a lycan by a vampire would result in death.
The Lich ritual performed on a lycan would automatically fail (inflicting curse upon curse willingly defeats the concept of utter damnation I would want to emphasize for the concept, IMO).
Basically, this allows you to come up with interesting villains without having some clear-cut definition PCs can exploit to their (unbalanced) advantage.
You could have all three variant forms with the Vampire template added. Or you could rule that the unholy combination results in an undead lycanthrope "stuck" in hybrid form. Would make it more monstrous -it's cool, fits the concept, and is easier to manage stats-wise.
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If it is a curse or a disease depends on your interpretation, I'll check my dragon issues when I get home, I think that an early Paizo issue was mostly werewolf stuff...
I think that your interpretation of curse or disease leads to the answer to your initial questions... if you view it as a curse, then it is magical in nature and can exist post-death. If it is a disease, then when the subject dies, the bacteria/virus would most likely slowly die out (might be able to transform for a little while, but would take longer, or be less of a complete transformation the longer he was dead. Then again - there's always the "the Real Ghostbusters" episode were the vampires and werewolves fought and turned upon bite...
That's another angle to this question, what is the general majority think of lycanthropy? Is it a disease or is it a curse? Again going off of the SRD, it claims that lycanthropy spreads LIKE a disease, but it can be cured with a remove curseduring one of the three days of the full moon. That leads me to believe that the original thought is that it is a curse. That only speaks about afflicted lycanthropy, what about a "natural" lycanthrope? It can't be "cured" with remove curse because it is a part of the creature? If that is true, then what would prevent such a creature from becoming undead with full shapechange abilities?
I realize most of this discussion comes down directly to a DM's call, but I would really like to read your opinions. Thank you all again for your quick responses.
I'd say: yes, a lycanthrope can be undead.
Take for example the lich template, any humanoid can become one.
The lycanthrope template states that you gain the shapechanges subtype. So if you are a humanoid shapechanger there is nothing to stop you from gaining the lich template.
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It is not for a PC, but NPC's in the campaign.This makes me say yes, its A-OK.
I would agree but I am trying to avoid something similar to what Bhalzabahn is saying -
Basically, this allows you to come up with interesting villains without having some clear-cut definition PCs can exploit to their (unbalanced) advantage.
I want to be ready to back up any discussions/arguments that may show up down the line.
I'd say: yes, a lycanthrope can be undead.
As would I.
In regards to Johnathan_Shade's question, Were I the DM and using lycanthropes, I would make it closer to a curse. Though from the player's side of the DM screen, I could understand it being either depending on the game.
-Kurocyn
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So under the template that removes those abilities, would it remove the lycanthropy as well? Or do I have zombies running around that can spread lycanthropy thru their natural attacks? or ghouls, etc?
Lycans cannot become any other type of undead and retain their lycan abilities,intelligent or not, due to the fact that all other types are either only an entry (ghoul/vampire spawn/mummy) or their template removes those abilities (skeleton/zombie)That being said, I've always thought it would have been a better idea to make most undead a template (especialy those that create spawn).
Edit: I've always thought of Lycanthropy as a curse, not a disease. Sure, you can try to cure lycanthropy with a remove disease or heal spell, but that just never sat right with me. Just my 2 c.p.
As for the template "removing" lycanthropy, I cannot say. I can say that, according to the rules, the ability to bestow the "curse of lycanthropy" is a special attack/quality. So I'd have to say that a zombie made from a lycan's corpse could not spread lycanthropy. Not to mention that when a lycan dies, it reverts to it's "base creature", so no lycan-hybrid zombies. On the other hand, If you REALLY want a zombie werewolf or sumsuch, who am I to deny it?
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As for the template "removing" lycanthropy, I cannot say. I can say that, according to the rules, the ability to bestow the "curse of lycanthropy" is a special attack/quality. So I'd have to say that a zombie made from a lycan's corpse could not spread lycanthropy. Not to mention that when a lycan dies, it reverts to it's "base creature", so no lycan-hybrid zombies. On the other hand, If you REALLY want a zombie werewolf or sumsuch, who am I to deny it?
Could you point me to where it says that it would revert to the "base creature" when the lycan dies?
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As for the template "removing" lycanthropy, I cannot say. I can say that, according to the rules, the ability to bestow the "curse of lycanthropy" is a special attack/quality. So I'd have to say that a zombie made from a lycan's corpse could not spread lycanthropy. Not to mention that when a lycan dies, it reverts to it's "base creature", so no lycan-hybrid zombies. On the other hand, If you REALLY want a zombie werewolf or sumsuch, who am I to deny it?Could you point me to where it says that it would revert to the "base creature" when the lycan dies?
in the SRD under special qualities: "A slain lycanthrope reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however."
I'd say: yes, a lycanthrope can be undead.As would I.
In regards to Johnathan_Shade's question, Were I the DM and using lycanthropes, I would make it closer to a curse. Though from the player's side of the DM screen, I could understand it being either depending on the game.
-Kurocyn
I'm curious, if it's treated as a curse, could something already undead be afflicted with lycanthropy? Or on a different tack, since some have shapeshift already, could something occur to make their shapeshift into something not controlled by them, which might end up working like lycanthropy?
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MM p.176 under Special Qualities entry alternate form, second paragraph, second sentence:As for the template "removing" lycanthropy, I cannot say. I can say that, according to the rules, the ability to bestow the "curse of lycanthropy" is a special attack/quality. So I'd have to say that a zombie made from a lycan's corpse could not spread lycanthropy. Not to mention that when a lycan dies, it reverts to it's "base creature", so no lycan-hybrid zombies. On the other hand, If you REALLY want a zombie werewolf or sumsuch, who am I to deny it?Could you point me to where it says that it would revert to the "base creature" when the lycan dies?
A slain lycanthrope reverts to its humanoid form, although it remains dead. Separated body parts retain their animal form, however.
Dungeon 126, Vampires of Waterdeep adventure arc, Part One: Blood of Malar.
Vampire werewolves.
Dungeon 126, Vampires of Waterdeep adventure arc, Part One: Blood of Malar.
Vampire werewolves.
One of "the Styes" councilman was a wererat-lich. And remember folks: if it is in Dragon or Dungeon it is 100% DnD.
If your looking for some easy mechanics, check out the Advanced Bestiary by Green Ronin. A book of templates, and it has a whole section on the undead from the PHB, converted into templates. Including sentient skeletons and zombies. So you can rock out with your vampire werebear, your ghoul carrion crawler, your wraith beholder, and your everloving pit fiend lich!
Sorry if I am in on this late, but, a natural lycanthrope should be able to become a vampire specifically. Just apply the template as needed. However an inflicted lycanthrope is considered diseased, and would be cured of their lycanthropy once they become a vampire. I personally don't know about liches that much, but I don't know of any reason why not off the top of my head.
And remember folks: if it is in Dragon or Dungeon it is 100% DnD.
Unlike most of 4e.
Sorry if I am in on this late, but, a natural lycanthrope should be able to become a vampire specifically. Just apply the template as needed. However an inflicted lycanthrope is considered diseased, and would be cured of their lycanthropy once they become a vampire. I personally don't know about liches that much, but I don't know of any reason why not off the top of my head.
I completely concur.
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If your looking for some easy mechanics, check out the Advanced Bestiary by Green Ronin. A book of templates, and it has a whole section on the undead from the PHB, converted into templates. Including sentient skeletons and zombies. So you can rock out with your vampire werebear, your ghoul carrion crawler, your wraith beholder, and your everloving pit fiend lich!
I will have to track that one down. Thanks for the suggestion.
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Sorry if I am in on this late, but, a natural lycanthrope should be able to become a vampire specifically. Just apply the template as needed. However an inflicted lycanthrope is considered diseased, and would be cured of their lycanthropy once they become a vampire. I personally don't know about liches that much, but I don't know of any reason why not off the top of my head.
I was really trying to cover all types of undead with all types of lycans.
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I wouldn't allow it as a PC; too powerful. If you're asking as a GM in terms of villain creation, you're thinking about it wrong! :) The only questions you need to ask when making villains are:
1) Is it cool?
2) Can my PCs beat it?If the answer to both of those is yes, game on!
The main idea for an upcoming encounter is werewolves that once defeated, provided that the characters don't destroy the corpses completely, a cultist cleric for a rival faction finds the corpses and animates the corpses as his personal guard. I was thinking about keeping the lycans in hybrid form but since they convert back to base form once dead, that kind of ruins the feel of the guard. I need to come up with a way to keep the lycans in hybrid form for animation.
A lycan vampire is for later on in the adventure. Revealing the lycan ability at a very good moment to really drive fear into the characters hearts and minds.
I wouldn't allow it as a PC; too powerful. If you're asking as a GM in terms of villain creation, you're thinking about it wrong! :) The only questions you need to ask when making villains are:
1) Is it cool?
2) Can my PCs beat it?If the answer to both of those is yes, game on!
The main idea for an upcoming encounter is werewolves that once defeated, provided that the characters don't destroy the corpses completely, a cultist cleric for a rival faction finds the corpses and animates the corpses as his personal guard. I was thinking about keeping the lycans in hybrid form but since they convert back to base form once dead, that kind of ruins the feel of the guard. I need to come up with a way to keep the lycans in hybrid form for animation.
A lycan vampire is for later on in the adventure. Revealing the lycan ability at a very good moment to really drive fear into the characters hearts and minds.
You were aiming for mindless or intelligent undead? If you wanted intelligent undead you can still zombify them (per the template) and then give them some intelligence which would mean that they could change to werewolf form. I guess that would amount to a +1 CR.
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You were aiming for mindless or intelligent undead? If you wanted intelligent undead you can still zombify them (per the template) and then give them some intelligence which would mean that they could change to werewolf form. I guess that would amount to a +1 CR.
Intelligent undead was the main goal. I was working it out to more like +2 CR.
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You were aiming for mindless or intelligent undead? If you wanted intelligent undead you can still zombify them (per the template) and then give them some intelligence which would mean that they could change to werewolf form. I guess that would amount to a +1 CR.Intelligent undead was the main goal. I was working it out to more like +2 CR.
Heh. Do it with ghouls or ghasts instead. Then slap the ravenous templatefrom the Dragon Compendium on top. Feral, perpetually hunger-crazed undead werewolves will give ANYBODY pause.
Vampires in Waterdeep (3 part adventure in Dungeon) kicked off with a gang of Vampire Werewolves.Which issues? Do you remember?
See above.