You pointed out one book. Would one book about a unhealthy gay couple have been good enough instead of gay characters in damn near every major tv show and entire shows about it?I just don't understand the fixation with gay and no mention(let alone saturation of media) for any other alternate sexuality. When did we last see the positive role model argument used for BDSM couples?Yep, no media coverage for that whatsoever.
You asked when we last saw a BDSM couple portrayed in a positive light in the media. I pointed out that the biggest literary phenomenon of the year was exactly what you were looking for. Sure, BDSM isn't as mainstream as homosexuality. But it's not like it doesn't get any media attention.
Or in the corner of the Homosexuality in Golarion thread?
[Waggles eyebrows]
{glances up over bifocals} Not in front of the humans, dear. They're too impressionable at their ages. {sips tea and nibbles on a scone}
And yes, I would like to see a Pathfinder novel with a goblin protagonist/lead.It would have to be a picture book. No wordy words.
{gently pats "50 Shades of Blues: A Goblinoid Pop-Up Book"} My my, I never knew psionics were so naughty! {, fails Perform (Comedy) check to find a setup for obvious "going nova" joke}
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I was hoping/assuming he was just, well, playing devil's advocate for them.Irony of the Year (and it's not even February): a person with the nickname "Devil's Advocate" is a homophobia apologist.
For the most part. I can see it both ways. I do think that for subjects like this there is a certain sense of entitlement and elitism that springs up, as well as double standards and hypocracy/name-calling. It' okay for one side to call it out on the other, but somehow anyone that disagrees, is not comfortable with the issue, or the like is somehow oppressing the same side.
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For the most part. I can see it both ways. I do think that for subjects like this there is a certain sense of entitlement and elitism that springs up, as well as double standards and hypocracy/name-calling. It' okay for one side to call it out on the other, but somehow anyone that disagrees, is not comfortable with the issue, or the like is somehow oppressing the same side.I was hoping/assuming he was just, well, playing devil's advocate for them.Irony of the Year (and it's not even February): a person with the nickname "Devil's Advocate" is a homophobia apologist.
Now imagine that we were having this argument 50 years ago, and it was about race instead of sexual orientation. Now go back and read what you just wrote through that lens. Notice how it sounds like you're defending racists?
This isn't an argument for which there are two valid sides.
If you think you see hypocrisy coming from those arguing for equality, explain why it's hypocritical and be prepared to defend that explanation.
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When did we last see the positive role model argument used for BDSM couples?Yep, no media coverage for that whatsoever.Speaking as a borderline member of the BDSM community, those books do not:
a) Present BDSM relationships in anything resembling a positive light.
b) Present emotionally healthy relationships period.
Well I tried to get the subject back on topic... Agree with Irnk though.
{glances up over bifocals} Not in front of the humans, dear. They're too impressionable at their ages. {sips tea and nibbles on a scone}Or in the corner of the Homosexuality in Golarion thread?
[Waggles eyebrows]
[Pouts]
Well I tried to get the subject back on topic... Agree with Irnk though.
And I do appreciate it. :-)
Scott and Devil's Advocate, please take the political debates about homosexuality to the Off-Topic Forum. Thanks!
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Now imagine that we were having this argument 50 years ago, and it was about race instead of sexual orientation. Now go back and read what you just wrote through that lens. Notice how it sounds like you're defending racists?
No, not really. I do notice it's fair game to compair it to racism, but not to (not even actually) compair it to rape or other subjects.
This isn't an argument for which there are two valid sides.
I and statistically speak most of the rest of the world/country disagree. If it where so, then there wouldn't be anything to argue about.
If you think you see hypocrisy coming from those arguing for equality, explain why it's hypocritical and be prepared to defend that explanation.
Already did. We took the idea of equality off the table because that's not what it's about. It's about what people find to be or not to be acceptible/desirable. That being said, I think we are way off topic, and I'm honestly rather sick of the same old arguement.
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Nex has a class issue in that not only are magical resources chiefly available to a wealthy elite, but the elite functions as the monopolists of magic as well. Hence polymorphous sexuality and other diversions would be only allowed to the highest caste, except in as much the poor would be victims of experimentation. I guess that would be a significant problem in many stratified societies (like ancient Rome) - that sexual freedom is more available to those with power than those without it and indeed exemplifies the freedom not extended to those who have less autonomy.
A Nexian archmage can pretty much mate with, reproduce with, and love, anything or anyone they want. But there are costs to this. It doesn't seem me that Nex's elite culture cares much for ethics or morality, and hence free will. I mean "For the Magics!" might as well be their national motto.
Hm. This gives me an idea for a homebrew series of feat chains... Of a non-pervy sort of course.
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I have to put my .02 in. While I don't like sex in my campaign, it's going to show up every time a pc flirts with a bar maid or if there is any innuendo (and if you've played for a while innuendo always shows up). With that in mind I run what I know: I'm heterosexual and so are my players so we go in that direction. Having played in a game run by a homosexual friend I have to say I didn't notice anything weird or strange. Homosexuals in a fictional world isn't really that big of a deal. If a game has gratuitous sex, heterosexual or homosexual I'll walk because that isn't what I'm into. But gay undertones like a character flirting with the young apprentice of the black smith isn't going to ruin my game or make me start an inquisition at my table.
On a lighter note when we were a playing Pathfinder society scenario: City of Strangers I & II, Ms. Feathers (a Transgender prostitute) was awesome and a Male Cleric of Calistria had a little off screen evening with him. It didn't cause the earth to become a lake of fire, blood to run out of the sinks or cause to gad flies to invade the shop we were playing in, we just went with it and had a grand old time.
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** spoiler omitted **
Post-F5 Edit: And sorry, Jessica/Mods for repeating real world issues here. Spoilered now, but please delete if it derails.
Also it seems everyone naturally assumes you are into kinky stuff as well.
One of my friends is a bi guy who is about as vanilla as you could ask for when it comes to sex and being in his early 40's has been with a grand total of 5 people of both genders his whole life.
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What is it about the mere mention of a non-hetero attraction between two consenting adults that somehow crosses the line into being harmful to impressionable players/readers? Yeah, it's your home game, do what you want... but why are LGBT people automatically censored in it?
I believe it's to do with our very existence being objectionable, a regrettable fact that they prefer not to be reminded of in their fun time reading. Of course calling it an agenda is a way to stigmatize and vilify: We act from carefully-considered principles; They have the agenda.
There are certainly things I don't want in my fun time reading, but I can't say that I always want it purged of, say, homophobes. A setting where nobody ever objects to LGBT people is very nearly as bizarre and impossible to relate to (if in a more positive way) than one where LGBT people simply don't exist. It's nice for an occasional break, of course.
But really I think Paizo did a great job way back in the original Sandpoint write-up. There's a closeted gay couple that everyone in town knows about and nobody cares except one guy that has an E in his abbreviated alignment. It strains my credulity a lot that a somewhat isolated small town (like the one I live in) is that broad-minded, but I'm willing to spot that as Sandpoint is meant to endear itself to the players and it comes from a world that does not have the same obsessive sexual hangups that ours has so often suffered.
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Golarion could use a few more female rulers who aren't crazy evil or in bed with teh debbil. All the world shaking non-evil mages (Old Mage Jatembe?, Nex, the alchemist in Thuvia) seem to be dudes, and the legendary magical mystery ladies are people like Baba Yaga, her current crop of kids, Abrogail Thrune, etc.
Good point. It's odd to see what seems to be a gender imbalance going different ways here. A lack of positive female rulers/influential people in the setting material, and a lack of male authority/patron/central-ally-or-love-interest NPCs in the AP line.
Not saying there's an absolute absence in either of those lines, just a seeming accidental trend.
Magic does seem to address gender dysphoria pretty well. Yet the problem remains is that it is expensive. Just as in our world, an individual who wishes to change their body needs a lot of resources and could end up saving for years or decades to afford it.
Nex has a class issue in that not only are magical resources chiefly available to a wealthy elite, but the elite functions as the monopolists of magic as well. Hence polymorphous sexuality and other diversions would be only allowed to the highest caste, except in as much the poor would be victims of experimentation. I guess that would be a significant problem in many stratified societies (like ancient Rome) - that sexual freedom is more available to those with power than those without it and indeed exemplifies the freedom not extended to those who have less autonomy.
A Nexian archmage can pretty much mate with, reproduce with, and love, anything or anyone they want. But there are costs to this. It doesn't seem me that Nex's elite culture cares much for ethics or morality, and hence free will. I mean "For the Magics!" might as well be their national motto.
The class stratification sounds so Nex. (and it's easy to see a similar thing happening from different angles in Cheliax)
This gets even wilder when you add in the fact that Nex has a history of creating new intelligent life. There's a race that was originally created to serve as food and now they're walking and talking and living and loving alongside human Nexians, though not necessarily as equals.
Man, I honestly don't know where to start and have absolutely no idea where it would stop with that particular country.
A lot of fictive magi - Faust comes to mind, with Helen of Troy - and based on the real Grimoires I own, real medieval and renaissance ones - spend a lot of time trying to compel love or lust in their objects of desire. Unfortunately I see the same thing happening, based on human nature, in Golarion.
Yeah, magic's use to subvert consent is something that doesn't get looked at enough, considering how liberally it gets thrown around. It just seems like the declaration "Magic roofies are still roofies" comes across as more of a shock than it really should at this point.
Sure, love potions are a standard fantasy trope. But it's a very uncomfortable one when viewed through a lens that doesn't run on protagonist-centered morality. Or adulthood. I don't know, it just feels like "love spell/potion" plots can never regain their innocence once you've looked at them from that angle.
You asked when we last saw a BDSM couple portrayed in a positive light in the media. I pointed out that the biggest literary phenomenon of the year was exactly what you were looking for. Sure, BDSM isn't as mainstream as homosexuality. But it's not like it doesn't get any media attention.
I think Andrew R's protest is that 50 Shades of Gray is neither about actual BDSM nor a positive portrayal of such.
It is a genuinely dangerously distorted portrayal. It's like saying that a guy who gets Stockholm's Syndrome for his abuser in prison is a positive portrayal of a gay man. It's like saying the Gor novels were a positive portrayal of BDSM. It's really that bad.
Ironically, when it comes to positive portrayals of D/s couples and such in RPGs...the only one that comes to mind is what /tg/ of all people cobbled together due to a self-imposed challenge to justify paladins being into BDSM.
It was downright bizarre to see /tg/ leading the charge in treating people with empathy and respect in that particular area.
Speaking of Golarion specifically...well, the obvious place people will look, Zon-Kuthon's crew, is no place to find a healthy positive relationship going on. Calistria might offer some possibilities, but that one couple from Second Darkness certainly wasn't SSC. Or positive. I'd figure Shelyn or Arshea would be safer places to look.* You could be damn sure they'd demand it be a healthy relationship.
Then again....there's also the Iridian Veil in Kaer Maga... There's something going on there.
*Or Iomedae. Like no one else was thinking it.
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The Mongol general Subutai was one of the greatest tacticians of his age. His subordinates so admired and cherished his tenacity and quick mind on the field that they carted him around as a fat, arthritic blob on a palanquin so he could observe and direct battles from the rear.
(this has nothing to do with homosexuality or Golarion. It's just a comment I wanted to make in support of Jessica's comment on physical anything not being a prerequisite to tactical genius, a few pages back.)
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Laori Vaus is an excellent BDSM romantic interest.
Especially if *Mikaze mode on* you can redeem her while at it. *Mikaze mode off*
You are now imagining Vaus cheerfully bound by climbing rose "vines" while the nameless paladin of Shelyn from Champions of Purity "punishes" her with a rose's bloom, both of them keeping their eyes locked on each other's, staying in constant communication even as it's unspoken.
Because if we're going to go down this road as a forum we're damn well going to be classy about it.
And that is how it's done, E.L. James.
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Laori Vaus is an excellent BDSM romantic interest.
Especially if *Mikaze mode on* you can redeem her while at it. *Mikaze mode off*
You are now imagining Vaus cheerfully bound by climbing rose "vines" while the nameless paladin of Shelyn from Champions of Purity "punishes" her with a rose's bloom, both of them keeping their eyes locked on each other's, staying in constant communication even as it's unspoken.
Because if we're going to go down this road as a forum we're damn well going to be classy about it.
And that is how it's done, E.L. James.
Just as their silent communion is about to reach it's blossoming climax, suddenly a wild pugwampi pack appears! And Selytiel (who was watching all this from behind a curtain all the time, HEART BURNING WITH JEALOUSY *except he's not sure who is he jealous about, but who cares?*) bursts onto the scene, brandishing his Zweihander and screaming (in his trademark falsetto) "ONLY ON THE BATTLEFIELD DOES TRUE LOVE BLOSSOM"!
Just as he's mid-air and ready to swing (but who is he swinging at?) there's a fade to black and some ramen advertisements. With Bill Murray.
Wat
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Laori Vaus is an excellent BDSM romantic interest.
Especially if *Mikaze mode on* you can redeem her while at it. *Mikaze mode off*
You are now imagining Vaus cheerfully bound by climbing rose "vines" while the nameless paladin of Shelyn from Champions of Purity "punishes" her with a rose's bloom, both of them keeping their eyes locked on each other's, staying in constant communication even as it's unspoken.
Because if we're going to go down this road as a forum we're damn well going to be classy about it.
And that is how it's done, E.L. James.
This is akin to an inquisitor (heretic of course) of Sheylin I thought of. He understands there's beauty in pain, and art in the style of inflicting it. He's dove into the methods of the Kuthites to bring to them the love of beauty through their 'language'.
Now if only there was a feat like dazzling display to inspire allies, instead of demoralize opponents.
(Seriously, have you ever seen an expert with a bull whip, or someone double flogging? There's a poerty in motion.)
Aside: Back in the 90's I was watching the Olympics with my (then) wife. I was facinated at watching Dominique Dawes. Whether it was the low body fat, or her dark skin, I don't know, but I could see the play of her leg muscles beneath the skin. I commented to my wife I wished the tops of the gymnasts outfits covered less, because I thought it would be neat to see the muscles of her arms and back the same way. My (ex-)wife, being somewhat repressed, hit me. It wasn't me being a pervert "Let's see nekked women" it was just a facsination with the human body in motion.
Aside: Back in the 90's I was watching the Olympics with my (then) wife. I was facinated at watching Dominique Dawes. Whether it was the low body fat, or her dark skin, I don't know, but I could see the play of her leg muscles beneath the skin. I commented to my wife I wished the tops of the gymnasts outfits covered less, because I thought it would be neat to see the muscles of her arms and back the same way. My (ex-)wife, being somewhat repressed, hit me. It wasn't me being a pervert "Let's see nekked women" it was just a facsination with the human body in motion.
Continuing the Aside Briefly: Be sure to watch the track and field, particularly the pole vaulters. The only trouble is most of those events happen so quickly and from a further camera angle compared to gymnastics.
I was similarly fascinated with some routines by the Russian gymnast Svetlana Khorkina. I guess she's only 5' 5" but that was regarded as tall for gymnast and artistry. Nevertheless, I thought her movements were particularly interesting to watch because she was a bit longer in the limbs than most of her peers. I feel much the same about watching my daughter swim. She's fairly tall among her peers and may not be the fastest on the team, but her gracefulness in the water is a joy to watch. And no, I'm not biased. Not at all.
This gets even wilder when you add in the fact that Nex has a history of creating new intelligent life. There's a race that was originally created to serve as food and now they're walking and talking and living and loving alongside human Nexians, though not necessarily as equals.
I find this comment intriguing. What is this race you're describing, and what's the source of this information? (I don't have a lot of Pathfinder books, so please forgive my ignorance.)
Yeah, magic's use to subvert consent is something that doesn't get looked at enough, considering how liberally it gets thrown around. It just seems like the declaration "Magic roofies are still roofies" comes across as more of a shock than it really should at this point.
Sure, love potions are a standard fantasy trope. But it's a very uncomfortable one when viewed through a lens that doesn't run on protagonist-centered morality. Or adulthood. I don't know, it just feels like "love spell/potion" plots can never regain their innocence once you've looked at them from that angle.
I would have to imagine that in the big cities with lots of magic, manipulation of people via magic has to be one of the biggest problems law enforcement deals with, to the point that there is probably the equivalent of some sort of Nex "SVU" to deal with it.
As far as love potions go...anytime you are playing with people's emotions, you stand a strong chance of getting burned. There is a reason the "Love Potion gone bad" is a popular trope in magical fiction. Some one downing a bottle could easily become obsessed with the target (ala Buffy), or if the wrong people drink it you could get into some seriously messed up situations (a short story in the Dresden Files Universe explore what happens when a love spell gets cast...on a pair of siblings). I could see a ton of plot threads that could easily spin off from the misuse of a love potion
This gets even wilder when you add in the fact that Nex has a history of creating new intelligent life. There's a race that was originally created to serve as food and now they're walking and talking and living and loving alongside human Nexians, though not necessarily as equals.I find this comment intriguing. What is this race you're describing, and what's the source of this information? (I don't have a lot of Pathfinder books, so please forgive my ignorance.)
The Inner Sea Bestiary has a PC-able Plant race called the Ghoran. They were originally created/developed/etc... in Nex as a foodstuf.
It's actually a fairly recent sourcebook, so don't feel bad.
Oddly enough, I'm getting back on the topic of Homosexuality in Golarion, sort of.
I have a Changeling Paladin of Shelyn in a RotRL campaign who's kinda bi-, but is certain she's Lesbian, it's the whole 'Mom murdered Dad while they were bumpin' uglies' thing. She & another PC were sorta-flirting during the Swallowtail Festival before the Goblin's showed up & she made a comment in reference to her teacher admonishing her against 'lapses of character', which the other PC thought meant 'no fooling around' but was actually a reference to her smiting somebody before she was certain they were evil. When the other PC mentioned that a 'lapse of character' was just what some NPC's were hoping for, she flippantly replied that they would only like it if they 'followed the dark brother' as a reference to Zon Kuthon/BDSM, which got her thinking how, as a Changeling, with claws, some people might find her a really fun date. It was the first time the thought had ever occurred to her & it shocked her so much she had to go run & hide until the dry heaves stopped.
Now I really want her to meet Gein Kafog.
edit: Also, Mathew, I have seen/experienced a skilled practitioner of double flogging. You're right, it is amazing.
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Laori Vaus is an excellent BDSM romantic interest.
Especially if *Mikaze mode on* you can redeem her while at it. *Mikaze mode off*
You are now imagining Vaus cheerfully bound by climbing rose "vines" while the nameless paladin of Shelyn from Champions of Purity "punishes" her with a rose's bloom, both of them keeping their eyes locked on each other's, staying in constant communication even as it's unspoken.
Because if we're going to go down this road as a forum we're damn well going to be classy about it.
And that is how it's done, E.L. James.
I didn't even have chips in this poker match and I'm cashing mine in. Done. Fin. You cannot fight this entity. Seek other battles.
The Inner Sea Bestiary has a PC-able Plant race called the Ghoran.
Thanks.
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Louis, Matthew, Odraude: please take discussion of real-world politics and homosexuality to the off-topic forum. As I noted before, this thread is about homosexuality in Golarion.
Sorry. Went ahead and deleted my comment.
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Louis, Matthew, Odraude: please take discussion of real-world politics and homosexuality to the off-topic forum. As I noted before, this thread is about homosexuality in Golarion.
Well I *did* spoiler it...
More seriously, does intolerance of homosexuality even *exist* on Golarion? If you read the Battlestar Wiki, it states that Sam and his husband and Sister Clarice's family weren't seen as abnormal because the alternative lifestyles were never not accepted. Is Golarion similar?
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Louis, Matthew, Odraude: please take discussion of real-world politics and homosexuality to the off-topic forum. As I noted before, this thread is about homosexuality in Golarion.
I'm very sorry about that.
Back on the topic of homosexuality on Golarion:
I enjoy the way it is presented by Paizo. The characters and relationships feel organic and realistic, with there being good gay characters, morally neutral gay characters, and completely off-the-walls evil gay characters. It helps that Paizo publishing seems pretty sex-positive in general and are willing to explore and touch upon the whole spectrum of sexuality, not merely gay/straight.
For example, we have a rather strong (if somewhat self-loathing) BDSM community with the Zon-Kuthon worshippers. That's a start, but as someone mentioned before, it may do to present some people who enjoy those forms of relationships as truly good people (as many in real life are) rather than as mentally damaged, dysfunctional and/or self-loathingly evil (a la Zon-Kuthon and most of his worshippers) or uninhibitedly hedonistic (a la Calistra, Lamashtu or Urgathoa and most of their worshippers).
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Louis, Matthew, Odraude: please take discussion of real-world politics and homosexuality to the off-topic forum. As I noted before, this thread is about homosexuality in Golarion.Well I *did* spoiler it...
More seriously, does intolerance of homosexuality even *exist* on Golarion? If you read the Battlestar Wiki, it states that Sam and his husband and Sister Clarice's family weren't seen as abnormal because the alternative lifestyles were never not accepted. Is Golarion similar?
I always kinda thought that prejudice was focused on more obvious otherness, like other nonhuman races, relationships with them, and so forth. Isn't homophobia a fear of the "Other" (even the Other within one's self) - despite it's name - and hence more blatant Otherness would attract more vitriol.
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I always kinda thought that prejudice was focused on more obvious otherness, like other nonhuman races, relationships with them, and so forth. Isn't homophobia a fear of the "Other" (even the Other within one's self) - despite it's name - and hence more blatant Otherness would attract more vitriol.
This.
If anything, I would imagine that a hot-topic issue on Golarion would not be homosexual relationships but rather interracial relationships.
Most Elves, for example, might consciously or subconsciously see themselves as naturally superior to other races, and many of the more traditional members of their species would be shocked and offended by one of their males engaging in a lasting, loving relationship with a human being (or any other non-elf). Some might be even more offended if an elven woman decided to find true love in the arms of non-elves as well (They're gonna seduce our women!).
The possiblities for conflict and political axe-grinding are endless.
I always kinda thought that prejudice was focused on more obvious otherness, like other nonhuman races, relationships with them, and so forth. Isn't homophobia a fear of the "Other" (even the Other within one's self) - despite it's name - and hence more blatant Otherness would attract more vitriol.Louis, Matthew, Odraude: please take discussion of real-world politics and homosexuality to the off-topic forum. As I noted before, this thread is about homosexuality in Golarion.Well I *did* spoiler it...
More seriously, does intolerance of homosexuality even *exist* on Golarion? If you read the Battlestar Wiki, it states that Sam and his husband and Sister Clarice's family weren't seen as abnormal because the alternative lifestyles were never not accepted. Is Golarion similar?
I've tended to treat it - in Taldan and Chelaxian based cultures - with a Roman sensibility, at least with regards to men. That is to say, Giving it is a sign of strength and dominance, receiving it is a sign of weakness. Homosexual practices in those cultures tend to be viewed as just something (some) men do to establish their hierarchy.
Women are expected to fraternize with each-other to a certain extent. It's unfair, but societal double-standards like that can make for good RP opportunities.
If you're nobility, of course, standard conventions for relationships don't apply to you anyway, so far as most people are concerned. So long as you do your duty and have children when its required of you, do what you want on your off hours. Just don't embarrass the family.
If you're an Adventurer - every PC ever - you exist outside society's traditional structures by virtue of your wandering, violent life at first, and later on, by virtue of your extreme power if you live to attain higher levels. Adventurers are the exception to every rule, and most people treat them as oddities for being adventurers before they think of them as oddities for their sexual behaviors (which, TBH, they're also likely to write off under the category of "Adventurer, thereby unusual to begin with.")
I always kinda thought that prejudice was focused on more obvious otherness, like other nonhuman races, relationships with them, and so forth. Isn't homophobia a fear of the "Other" (even the Other within one's self) - despite it's name - and hence more blatant Otherness would attract more vitriol.Louis, Matthew, Odraude: please take discussion of real-world politics and homosexuality to the off-topic forum. As I noted before, this thread is about homosexuality in Golarion.Well I *did* spoiler it...
More seriously, does intolerance of homosexuality even *exist* on Golarion? If you read the Battlestar Wiki, it states that Sam and his husband and Sister Clarice's family weren't seen as abnormal because the alternative lifestyles were never not accepted. Is Golarion similar?
Is homosexuality that weird when you have sapient poop-eating monsters living in your town sewer?
I have to think that alignment being real and there being actual Gods who can tell you if something is right or wrong would also make a lot of attitudes that have developed on Earth pretty much impossible. It's why I always find it bizarre that people try to compare Golarion to real life Earth history or culture. The very underpinnings of Earth and Golarion are so different that you can't can't compare the two
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What is it about the mere mention of a non-hetero attraction between two consenting adults that somehow crosses the line into being harmful to impressionable players/readers? Yeah, it's your home game, do what you want... but why are LGBT people automatically censored in it?
I believe it's to do with our very existence being objectionable, a regrettable fact that they prefer not to be reminded of in their fun time reading. Of course calling it an agenda is a way to stigmatize and vilify: We act from carefully-considered principles; They have the agenda.
There are certainly things I don't want in my fun time reading, but I can't say that I always want it purged of, say, homophobes. A setting where nobody ever objects to LGBT people is very nearly as bizarre and impossible to relate to (if in a more positive way) than one where LGBT people simply don't exist. It's nice for an occasional break, of course.
But really I think Paizo did a great job way back in the original Sandpoint write-up. There's a closeted gay couple that everyone in town knows about and nobody cares except one guy that has an E in his abbreviated alignment. It strains my credulity a lot that a somewhat isolated small town (like the one I live in) is that broad-minded, but I'm willing to spot that as Sandpoint is meant to endear itself to the players and it comes from a world that does not have the same obsessive sexual hangups that ours has so often suffered.
Exactly, I don't need sexuality mucking up my D&D or Pathfinder fun. It's not supposed to be part of the game. I must say that I am extremely disturbed about this little tidbit about Sandpoint. They make the one guy that isn't okay with the homosexual couple evil? That truly is bigoted. Yes, let's villify everyone that has moral objections to homosexuality. That sort of thing definitely has no place in Pathfinder.
I always kinda thought that prejudice was focused on more obvious otherness, like other nonhuman races, relationships with them, and so forth. Isn't homophobia a fear of the "Other" (even the Other within one's self) - despite it's name - and hence more blatant Otherness would attract more vitriol.Louis, Matthew, Odraude: please take discussion of real-world politics and homosexuality to the off-topic forum. As I noted before, this thread is about homosexuality in Golarion.Well I *did* spoiler it...
More seriously, does intolerance of homosexuality even *exist* on Golarion? If you read the Battlestar Wiki, it states that Sam and his husband and Sister Clarice's family weren't seen as abnormal because the alternative lifestyles were never not accepted. Is Golarion similar?
Is homosexuality that weird when you have sapient poop-eating monsters living in your town sewer?
I have to think that alignment being real and there being actual Gods who can tell you if something is right or wrong would also make a lot of attitudes that have developed on Earth pretty much impossible. It's why I always find it bizarre that people try to compare Golarion to real life Earth history or culture. The very underpinnings of Earth and Golarion are so different that you can't can't compare the two
I think it's the fact that even with more pronounced gods, you'll still have the basic human (elf/dwarf/gnome/etc) nature of hating things that are different. The gods in Golarion really only tell you what is wrong in broad strokes. It's why you have the issues with the Sarenrae church being at odds with each other.
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Exactly, I don't need sexuality mucking up my D&D or Pathfinder fun. It's not supposed to be part of the game. I must say that I am extremely disturbed about this little tidbit about Sandpoint. They make the one guy that isn't okay with the homosexual couple evil? That truly is bigoted. Yes, let's villify everyone that has moral objections to homosexuality. That sort of thing definitely has no place in Pathfinder.
How many times do you have to be told, if you don't like it, just change that for your game?
Sexuality is as part of the game as anything else. If you have a problem with ALL forms of sexuality (e.g., depicting the love of the mayor and her husband, telling your PCs they can't hit on the pretty bard in the tavern...) that is one thing, but if you just have a problem with homosexuality, then there's a simple fix.
If you want homophobia to be more rampant in your game world, that's also an option, but I hope you don't have any gay players, because I know for a fact that it would drive me away from the game to face it with as much regularity as I do IRL.
Exactly, I don't need sexuality mucking up my D&D or Pathfinder fun. It's not supposed to be part of the game. I must say that I am extremely disturbed about this little tidbit about Sandpoint. They make the one guy that isn't okay with the homosexual couple evil? That truly is bigoted. Yes, let's villify everyone that has moral objections to homosexuality. That sort of thing definitely has no place in Pathfinder.What is it about the mere mention of a non-hetero attraction between two consenting adults that somehow crosses the line into being harmful to impressionable players/readers? Yeah, it's your home game, do what you want... but why are LGBT people automatically censored in it?
I believe it's to do with our very existence being objectionable, a regrettable fact that they prefer not to be reminded of in their fun time reading. Of course calling it an agenda is a way to stigmatize and vilify: We act from carefully-considered principles; They have the agenda.
There are certainly things I don't want in my fun time reading, but I can't say that I always want it purged of, say, homophobes. A setting where nobody ever objects to LGBT people is very nearly as bizarre and impossible to relate to (if in a more positive way) than one where LGBT people simply don't exist. It's nice for an occasional break, of course.
But really I think Paizo did a great job way back in the original Sandpoint write-up. There's a closeted gay couple that everyone in town knows about and nobody cares except one guy that has an E in his abbreviated alignment. It strains my credulity a lot that a somewhat isolated small town (like the one I live in) is that broad-minded, but I'm willing to spot that as Sandpoint is meant to endear itself to the players and it comes from a world that does not have the same obsessive sexual hangups that ours has so often suffered.
There's a difference between sexuality and having a couple on the screen. You can have heterosexual and homosexual couples in a book, film, or RPG product without going into sex.
Also, you are incorrect to why the guy is evil. I found two NPCs in my anniversary copy of Rise of the Runelords (Aliver Podiker and Jubrayl Vhiski) that are listed as evil and the real reason they are regarded as evil is because they work with the Sczarni. They are the local thieves's guild and are real bad guys. One of the evil character actively sells poison to them while the other is the leader of the local chapter. So that is why they are evil. Unless I'm forgetting someone.
...I don't need sexuality mucking up my D&D or Pathfinder fun. It's not supposed to be part of the game. I must say that I am extremely disturbed about this little tidbit about Sandpoint. They make the one guy that isn't okay with the homosexual couple evil? That truly is bigoted. Yes, let's villify everyone that has moral objections to homosexuality. That sort of thing definitely has no place in Pathfinder.Ahem (emphasis mine):
I think various Paizo employees have made it clear, both in this thread and elsewhere, that Paizo actively supports inclusiveness, and that it has no intention of ceasing to portray same-sex relationships or LGBTQ characters in our content, so I see no point in continuing to complain about it here....
So I'll repeat it for the third time:
You are welcome to change whatever you don't like about modules, PFS scenarios, etc. in your personal games. You're welcome to say whatever you like about same-sex relationships and the people who are in them -- elsewhere.
But don't bring it here.
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Exactly, I don't need sexuality mucking up my D&D or Pathfinder fun. It's not supposed to be part of the game. I must say that I am extremely disturbed about this little tidbit about Sandpoint. They make the one guy that isn't okay with the homosexual couple evil? That truly is bigoted. Yes, let's villify everyone that has moral objections to homosexuality. That sort of thing definitely has no place in Pathfinder.
So wait. You don't think sexuality belongs in Pathfinder. And to illustrate how much you think it doesn't belong, you explain that you are "extremely disturbed" by a remarkably subtle implication of a homosexual couple in Sandpoint and how the one guy who hates their relationship is evil - bearing in mind that he could be evil for entirely unrelated reasons, though frankly I have no problem with the label for the sake of his bigotry alone - but the fact that Sandpoint houses an actual brothel that is actually named The Pixie's Kitten doesn't even bear a mention?
I mean, come on.
You don't care about sexuality in your D&D game - at least, not at the level of explicitness seen in Pathfinder. Overt mentions of heterosexuality or even simply non-homosexual sexuality don't bug you in the slightest. You just don't like seeing any mention of homosexuality, because it bothers you. It grates at your closely-held, religiously-motivated, decades-ingrained belief system. That's all. "I don't want any sexuality in my D&D game!" is just a bullcrap smokescreen (made incredibly, stupidly obvious by your crusade against vague, implicit homosexuality while avoiding any mention whatsoever of explicit heterosexuality) for your bigotry.
Just admit it! You hate homosexuality and don't want to see it in your reading material. Why dress it up? Embrace your beliefs! If you're really as committed to them as you probably tell yourself you are, you owe it to yourself to go the distance! Don't sugar-coat your beliefs!
What NPC is it in Sandpoint that doesn't like the couple? I can't find it anywhere in my Anniversary Edition.
Which raises an interesting question: if I were creating an NPC who was a brutally-racist individual, I would probably consider tacking an "E" onto his alignment simply as a reflection of how he chooses to treat others. I've never even considered what sort of alignment I would give a raging homophobe, but now that I've given it some thought I'm inclined to treat it the same way. After all, what cause would I have to treat the homophobe any differently than the racist?
So should all highly homophobic NPCs receive an Evil alignment in Golarion? Or would the ones with some redeeming qualities just earn a Neutral label?