You give all these incidents but fail to site how rare and extreme they are. I live in Chicago and really do not see any of the hate your ranting about. The most recent incidents of violence against the gay community was attributed to a gang of Trannys flexing their muscle.
http://chicago.cbslocal.com/2011/07/05/friend-of-boystown-stabbing-victim-s ays-attack-not-isolated-incident/
The article doesn't say so but thats what the cops have leaked from last summer.
Until I see Straight only water fountains/restaurants or voting rights taken away I dont believe Homosexuals are an oppressed minority.
You know, there's a bit more to the modern world than just Chicago. Or United States.
You might also think twice before calling people "trannys", I do have a long list of derogatory terms for Christians, Americans and American Christians and I'm kind of itching to let it go. :)
I was unaware that there is a "T" word now. No joke.
I'm worried that because you have "a long list of derogatory terms for Christians, Americans, and American Christians" and your "itching to let it go" you might be a danger to your community. Thats a lot of hate.
May God bless you & may the dice Gods make all your rolls worth while.
Oh, fear not, God guides every my action. It is his serene voice that brought me here, and it is his fury that I shall unleash upon those that strayed from the path.
Until then, happy gaming :)
I have the feeling your mocking people of faith and hardly contributing to this discussion.
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
Matt is looking at this through the lens of time not the modern world. There is a reason the Left side is called Sinister in heraldry. For our world, no of course there is no comparison. It is difficult to say with certainty that Left Handed people were not discriminated against harshly in the past. I can not envision the discrimination being worse than homosexual discrimination is...
Actually, as This article points out, it still is very true in the modern world. Heck, I even found out we have an organization. Everything, from scissors to chalkboards to computers to cars is designed for a right handed person. (quick! Where's the ten-key pad on your keyboard?) Like I said, if the 'reason' for a gay couple in Sandpoint is to show the community's tollerance and diversity, then a left handed person would be the same.
|
Yes, Alice, I'm heterosexual. I'm sure that you are right- I don't notice the absence because homosexuality is not as relevant to my own life, my own experiences. I hardly know any gay folks.
Not noticing/caring about the absence of gay NPCs is not the same as objecting to the inclusion of gay NPCs.
Note
- If I were to I see two men holding hands, I would probably guess that they were gay, but there are other explanations. I've been to countries where it's not so unusual for two friends of the same sex to hold hands in public.PS-You write that some of my examples are unrelated. Examples of what? I'm not sure what you mean.
If that's your life environment/context, then I can understand why you might find it a little strange (not really a good word here... it stands out more than it should? Seems forced or possibly pushing a political point? You get my drift, I hope.) And I don't mean to imply you're objecting to their inclusion, just trying to explain why such a minor little thing might actually stick out like a sore thumb for some people reading. No harm on you, a little smile on the faces of people like me. :)
Your hand-holding example is a good one, and it's relevant to countries like the US too. It's actually not that surprising for two girls to hold hands either... at least of certain ages, or certain races (I see Asian girls clinging to each other all the time, for example.) There's still a matter of double standards here. You (general you) don't look at a girl and a guy holding hands and think "oh, they're straight"... you probably don't even think twice about it. But that's not the case for gay couples. You (general you again) don't see a couple in love holding hands, you see gay people.
As for irrelevant, I meant like sports and things like that. I don't really wonder if people are gay in a sports team or whatever because it's kind of irrelevant to the game. I'm more interested in whether they're a good player.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Getting back to the topic of how this all relates to Golarion, we have the "Burner" heresy of the church of Iomedae appearing in Liane Merciel's "Certainty." They like burning everyone one who has even a whiff of demonic taint.
Obviously this means all demonologists, demon cultists and priests, and of course tieflings get burned at the stake, but what then? Well, witches apparently make pacts with entities who sometimes may be demons, so it would seem prudent to burn all of them too and let Pharasma sort them out.
Now who do we burn apart from witches? Those sinister southpaws? Redheads? The bard said in the 'Book of Southpark' that "Gingers have no Souls" so they must have sold them to someone and surely that red hair is a sign of the pit. Doesn't Rovugug have red hair?
Okay, now that we've burnt the lefties and gingers, who else do we burn? Homosexuals? Sounds as reasonable as anything else and even has lots of historical precedent from another reality we're not mentioning.
Obviously this laundry list has not been spelled out, nor should it be. If you've got a nice open-ended concept like "demonic taint" and a Burner to interpret what that taint might be, they're going to burn all sorts of folks and it's up to the GM to figure out what's on that list and where to draw the line between historical accuracy and the comfort of his players.
Personally I like a darker and grittier world and since the Burners are not supposed to be all that sympathetic, I don't see them suddenly having great outbursts of common sense and compassion and deciding that left-handed red-headed lesbians were perfectly AOK with Iomedae. And barring making Iomedae a left-handed red-headed lesbian--which is certainly not off the board, since I've seen nothing specifying her handedness, hair color, or sexual preference--I really don't see them not doing this.
Now, of course, if Iomedae was a left-handed red-headed lesbian, I could easily see the Burners declaring themselves the left-hand of justice, saying that red hair was a sign of one's holiness and being chosen to be a Burner like holy Iomedae, and also that lesbians (and to lesser extent male homosexuals) were Her chosen people because by definition they would not willingly rut with demons and create tieflings and other vile spawn, so the right-handed breeders who did not have hair the color of Iomedae's blessed flames are the ones who should go on the pyre.
Hell, you could even have a schism in the Burners where there are the straight right-handed non-ginger Burners and the left-handed lesbian redheaded Burners. Have someone write up a few holy texts and rousing Burner hymns to Iomedae and you're good to go.
And I should point out that if reality is any model to go by, that's exactly what would happen.
Since I am left handed I don't know if having Ragathiel be left handed would support or break that stereotype. I wonder if being dominant with the right or left hand is common with Erinyes as well. Maybe we should start a thread on what hands different creatures use.
@Kevin Andrew Murphy I think Iomeade has black hair in a piece of art. Also she is chelixan which commonly have black hair.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I thought this was a bit interesting with all the talk about handiness.
Spiral Stairs
Spiral stairs in medieval times were generally made of stone and typically wound in a clockwise direction (from the ascendor's point of view),[13] to place attacking swordsmen (who were most often right-handed) at a disadvantage . This asymmetry forces the right-handed swordsman to engage the central pike and degrade his mobility compared with the defender who is facing down the stairs. Extant 14th to 17th century examples of these stairways can be seen at Muchalls Castle, Crathes Castle and Myres Castle in Scotland. Exceptions to the rule exist, however, as may be seen in the accompanying image of the Scala of the Palazzo Contarini del Bovolo, which winds up anti-clockwise.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
I thought this was a bit interesting with all the talk about handiness.
Spiral Stairs
Spiral stairs in medieval times were generally made of stone and typically wound in a clockwise direction (from the ascendor's point of view),[13] to place attacking swordsmen (who were most often right-handed) at a disadvantage . This asymmetry forces the right-handed swordsman to engage the central pike and degrade his mobility compared with the defender who is facing down the stairs. Extant 14th to 17th century examples of these stairways can be seen at Muchalls Castle, Crathes Castle and Myres Castle in Scotland. Exceptions to the rule exist, however, as may be seen in the accompanying image of the Scala of the Palazzo Contarini del Bovolo, which winds up anti-clockwise.
That was one thing that always bothered me in the Princess Bride, the stairs they fight up are anti-clockwise. (Yes, I noticed this)
|
I have the feeling your mocking people of faith and hardly contributing to this discussion.Oh, fear not, God guides every my action. It is his serene voice that brought me here, and it is his fury that I shall unleash upon those that strayed from the path.
Until then, happy gaming :)
Quite on contrary, I am a religious person.
Part of that however is that I loathe to project and render my religious views upon others, unless inquired.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since I am left handed I don't know if having Ragathiel be left handed would support or break that stereotype. I wonder if being dominant with the right or left hand is common with Erinyes as well. Maybe we should start a thread on what hands different creatures use.
@Kevin Andrew Murphy I think Iomedae has black hair in a piece of art. Also she is chelixan which commonly have black hair.
Lies! Heresy! I hath seen with mine own eyes the holy truth that she is a redhead, crowned with hair as red as the purifying flames!
Seriously, think about all the numerous depictions of Jesus and how he changes race depending on the ethnicity of the painter. Ditto Buddha, who originally started as Indian, not that you'd know it from most of the icons.
Also, given that Cayden Cailean's herald turned herself blue and grew extra wings once she became a demigod, Iomedae's original hair color has little bearing on her current hair color in her divine visitations.
I have the feeling your mocking people of faith and hardly contributing to this discussion.Oi, Gorb, we got a quick one here!
Thank you for that condescending remark.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
@Kevin Andrew Murphy I think Iomedae has black hair in a piece of art. Also she is chelixan which commonly have black hair.Lies! Heresy! I hath seen with mine own eyes the holy truth that she is a redhead, crowned with hair as red as the purifying flames!
Seriously, think about all the numerous depictions of Jesus and how he changes race depending on the ethnicity of the painter. Ditto Buddha, who originally started as Indian, not that you'd know it from most of the icons.
Also, given that Cayden Cailean's herald turned herself blue and grew extra wings once she became a demigod, Iomedae's original hair color has little bearing on her current hair color in her divine visitations.
Also, I hear she weighs the same as a duck, therefore she is made of wood.
{begins piling left-handed strawmen and dried ginger(s) together to start a bonfire}
I have the feeling your mocking people of faith and hardly contributing to this discussion.Oh, fear not, God guides every my action. It is his serene voice that brought me here, and it is his fury that I shall unleash upon those that strayed from the path.
Until then, happy gaming :)
Quite on contrary, I am a religious person.
Part of that however is that I loathe to project and render my religious views upon others, unless inquired.
I'm inquiring.
Thanks,Your brother in dice.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
"We tolerate redheads" and "we tolerate homosexuals" are two entirely different things, no matter how hard you try to reduce both sentences to pure logic value.
Well I would add that I happen to be a big supporter of the rights of redheaded lesbians to find peace and live a happy life. I might even build them a sanctuary at the back of my house.
"We tolerate redheads" and "we tolerate homosexuals" are two entirely different things, no matter how hard you try to reduce both sentences to pure logic value.Well I would add that I happen to be a big supporter of the rights of redheaded lesbians to find peace and live a happy life. I might even build them a sanctuary at the back of my house.
Do I have to buy my own plane ticket?
|
|
"We tolerate redheads" and "we tolerate homosexuals" are two entirely different things, no matter how hard you try to reduce both sentences to pure logic value.Well I would add that I happen to be a big supporter of the rights of redheaded lesbians to find peace and live a happy life. I might even build them a sanctuary at the back of my house.
I'm Bi... does that count?
I'm Bi... does that count?
I'm just gonna go right ahead and welcome you on in with open arms.
"We tolerate redheads" and "we tolerate homosexuals" are two entirely different things, no matter how hard you try to reduce both sentences to pure logic value.Well I would add that I happen to be a big supporter of the rights of redheaded lesbians to find peace and live a happy life. I might even build them a sanctuary at the back of my house.
You too? (except I have a flat instead of house)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
/Seconded!
Thirded. DO WANT!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
On a slightly less irreverent note, I hope my irreverence and trivialisation on the topic is not confused with anything other than my desire to point out what a trivial and unimportant issue sexuality should be, and the choice of other peoples sexual preferences has about the same impact on my life as their preference to certain colours of Chinese take-out.
It should only be of interest to me if it happens to be a game I can play too, and I feel like joining.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So, petition for more lesbian redhead couples in Paizo products?
Only if they're left-handed.
So, petition for more lesbian redhead couples in Paizo products?Only if they're left-handed.
I prefer mine ambidextrous.
That way they can TWF.
For certain values of W. And F.
Dual-wielding!
More seriously, though, I do approve of such incidental content, whether it is a focus or not. The Great Trinity of Motivations/Needs should be fully represented. Shelter is a given, food is necessary, and when both are had companionship in whatever form fits the scene and characters in question.
|
@Kevin Andrew Murphy I think Iomedae has black hair in a piece of art. Also she is chelixan which commonly have black hair.Lies! Heresy! I hath seen with mine own eyes the holy truth that she is a redhead, crowned with hair as red as the purifying flames!
Nope. Dark hair. The only one of the 'big 20' to have hair like purifying flames is, obviously, Sarenrae.
Now, of the lesser gods, I think it would be *totally* appropriate for Milani to be a redhead, to mesh aesthetically with the rose motif and the blood. (Meh. As if that goddess needed to be more popular than she already is...)
I kinda like that Shelyn is a brunette. Sune, in the realms, was a redhead, and Aphrodite often depicted as a blonde, so a brunette goddess of beauty is a nice departure.
.
As for Golarion and sexuality, are there any gods to whom abstinence or sexual 'purity' could be seen as a big thing?
Iomedae, Pharasma and Sarenrae could be seen as goddesses associated with purity, and might have sects that believe in celibacy and sacrificing home and family for a life of service to the faith, which, seemingly inevitably, leads to a bunch of unmarried old men dogging each other and their male acolytes in the vestry. Gorum and Norgorber and Zon-Kuthon might have celibate orders for very different reasons (pleasures of the flesh, other than war, are a sign of weakness / a lover is someone who can betray you / denying yourself pleasures of the flesh adds character and is a subtle life-long self-torture appreciated by the dark lord), as well.
Iomedae, a female 'inheritor' (in the chivalric / medieval traditions she's drawn from, a role traditionally limited to first born sons) who runs around being all knightly and valorous and martial (again, traditionally male roles in the real world), suggests strongly that these roles are not generally seen as male-limited, at least in the areas where Iomedae's faith is strong. There's two ways to see this, depending on where you want to go;
A) It was always this way, and Iomedae 'inheriting' and picking up the sword and being a shining knight is nothing new under the sun. No one but a few misogynistic cranks cared at all, and *some* of her early detractors might not have been criticizing her being a woman, so much as her not being remotely appropriate to fill the shoes of Aroden (but gotten lumped in with the patriarchal sorts, and tarred by association).
B) She's seen as something of a non-traditionalist upstart by old fogeys who are wrapped up in the 'first born sons inherit' way of thinking and 'knights are men' paradigm. It's been more than a few generations, so the people who would have violently freaked out over her ascension (possibly quite a few Arodenites, not quite willing to accept the death of their god) are mostly dead now anyway, but, if the 'inheritance' was a painful and sometimes bloody process, with stodgy traditionalists invoking the notion that she was 'uppity' or 'defying the natural order' or whatever, even in the modern day, she might be seen as a goddess who broke with convention, and therefore one to whom non-traditional couples might flock.
If Iomedae is (or at least, was) seen as taking on / 'inheriting' a traditionally male role, other gender non-conformists (female soldiers, male midwives, same-sex couples, whatever) could find her a symbolically powerful 'patron,' and her fledgling faith may have found it politically useful to accept these gender non-conformists, since, in the earliest years of the 'inheritance,' they needed all the support they could get...
|
|
A) It was always this way, and Iomedae 'inheriting' and picking up the sword and being a shining knight is nothing new under the sun. No one but a few misogynistic cranks cared at all, and *some* of her early detractors might not have been criticizing her being a woman, so much as her not being remotely appropriate to fill the shoes of Aroden (but gotten lumped in with the patriarchal sorts, and tarred by association).
B) She's seen as something of a non-traditionalist upstart by old fogeys who are wrapped up in the 'first born sons inherit' way of thinking and 'knights are men' paradigm. It's been more than a few generations, so the people who would have violently freaked out over her ascension (possibly quite a few Arodenites, not quite willing to accept the death of their god) are mostly dead now anyway, but, if the 'inheritance' was a painful and sometimes bloody process, with stodgy traditionalists invoking the notion that she was 'uppity' or 'defying the natural order' or whatever, even in the modern day, she might be seen as a goddess who broke with convention, and therefore one to whom non-traditional couples might flock.
Wonder how many of her faithful might still see her as a subordinate figure to Aroden even now, though it would certainly be less than back when she first took his place.
I really like this notion of her being something of a rule-abiding rebel, at least against some cultures' standards, and being a generally well-respected figure that would draw all sorts of people on the outs with society for whatever reason. Sure she makes waves in some places, but she's still part of the establishment, generally.
|
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I really like this notion of her being something of a rule-abiding rebel, at least against some cultures' standards, and being a generally well-respected figure that would draw all sorts of people on the outs with society for whatever reason. Sure she makes waves in some places, but she's still part of the establishment, generally.
"Meet the new boss. Surprisingly not that much like the old boss..."
The Asmodean faith has been described as male-dominated. It might be intriguing if that was a recent thing, relatively speaking, a reaction to the more 'sisters are doing it for themselves' rise of Iomedae as a rival. When Aroden was in charge, Asmodeus and he had a rivalry, but possibly a comfortable sort of rivalry. A 'good old boys' sort of thing.
Now that Iomedae is the shiny new thing, Asmodeus has pushed back against her rise in many ways, and one of those ways is to attack her right to 'inherit' because she's a woman, leading to a rise in misogyny among his clergy (who have never needed much of an excuse to be oppressive to *anyone,* just so we're clear...).
Asmodeus himself may care not a fig for the gender of a worshippers, or a rival, but will happily exploit the 'concerns' of those who do, and fan the flames of their gender-limiting views, so long as it suits his purposes.
If any of his more 'patriarchy-now!' minded clergy commune with him to ask 'What's up with all these uppity women in charge of Korvosa and House Thrune?' Asmodeus can smile a toothy smile and 'explain' that these 'powerful women' are, of course, subordinate to him, and, symbolically speaking, wedded to him, making their facade of power merely an extension of his own. But, he'll caution the inquisitive misogynist-priest, it's best if we don't tell them that. I like to indulge my faithful wives. If you piss off my slave-queen-wife Abrogail by spouting impolitic 'women should be subservient' commentary to her face, and she orders your grisly execution, it will be your own fault, and I won't lift a finger to stop it. Oppress all the low-born women you like, but hands off the ones I've favored...
That was one thing that always bothered me in the Princess Bride, the stairs they fight up are anti-clockwise. (Yes, I noticed this)
The palace could have been a church at one point, churches were sometimes built the other way to show their peaceful intent.
Now I'm left wondering if Sarenrae's hair can be blown out...
And what color is Arshea's hair.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Is sex really something that goes down in alot of campaigns?
Yes, yes it is. It is the most common denominator between all cultures and all people. If you're interested in religion like I am, one of the first commands given to humans by the creator in Jewish and Christian belief was to have sex and enjoy each other; and while different cultures, different times, and different religions have had their own spin on it, taboos on it, or opinions on it, it remains the central most powerful aspect of humanity. It is literally everywhere. So we could all be fairly mature about it, or we could panic and try to hide it away, but that never solves anything.
I commented to my younger brother recently that it astounds me the level of violence displayed in all forms of media, but Janet Jackson's boob is seen on tv, or a homosexual couple kisses at Disney World and people suddenly feel like they need to start something. Doesn't that sound just a little off to you?
I mean, I thought it added a lot of character both Sabina and Ilosea when I was first reading through my copy of CotCT, and I thought that was pretty cool. It also explained the loyalty in an interesting fashion.
Not counting Paizo products, I've had quite a few NPCs and even PCs that have had some downright strange circumstances in their relationships or families.
For example, my PCs once met a wizard and his wife, only to later find that his wife was actually his familiar who was shapechanged through some basic magic, because being two sentient intelligent beings who spent a lot of time together, and innately had a bond, fell in love.
Another example would be a player character of mine. She was a psychic warrior with two mothers. One was a blacksmith and the other was a less than nice pirate-wizard who took a liking to the blacksmith while she was in port, and while their relationship was probably too complicated (and possibly a little darker) than would be appropriate for the board, the player character was the result of a union involving an alter self spell.
Where those situations or subjects the main focus of the campaign? Not at all. But they did add a certain interest to the NPCs, and to the PCs who interacted with them, or gave the PCs something interesting to talk about in their backstories.
The commentary about two-mothered adventurers, coupled with the 'at least it's with another human' commentary a few back, makes me intrigued about non-anthropocentric (maybe that's not the right word) takes on such concepts. Some elves (and certainly several servitors of Calistria) might not have qualms with trying out the intimate capacities of peers, be they dwarven, gnomish, kitsune, or faun; that might be seen as being the greater cause for societal disapproval than simply kissing another lad or lass on the lips with a heaping helping of tongue.
But would it be treated as something akin to arson, murder, and jaywalking if the extra-racial interactions are seen as mere eccentricities, while having extra-racial actions with the same gender is where people collectively lose their minds and/or draw the line? And as much as xenophilia is treated as a mental condition among humans in many cultures, how much of that is seen as a failing in other races?
It need not be an explicit thing - the most g-rated version of all time falls into the whole Creature from the Black Lagoon territory, if not the trope of Mars Needs Women. A centaur who is exceedingly flirtatious towards bipedal women would probably be seen as a pervert among his own kind - Ariel was most certainly a deviant among merfolk kind for her interest in a human. There's likely potential for fairy-tale level tragedy and magic where someone of the Other seeks to become akin to that which has smitten them...but at the same time, there's the potential problem of VERY unfortunate implications involving change for a 'loved one' that could be construed as simple infatuation.
My sense of sexual ethics never advanced past the 10th century. A man who ****s another man is manly, a man who lets himself be ****ed by another man deserves it, and I'm not going to say a single solitary word about it to either of them while they're wearing steel.
I don't consciously include gay characters in my games because I barely even mention sex in my games, and when it's relevant to the plot, the heterosexual variety will almost always suffice. Pretty much the only way a gay NPC is going to exist in a game I'm running is if a module calls attention to it-- as in some of Paizo's modules-- or if one of my PCs starts making overtures to a same-sex NPC. As far as I'm concerned, as long as they're willing to respect my aversion to overly sexual themes in roleplaying, they can queer it up all over the place and it won't bother me.
Such a little thing to do, to accommodate a player.
And as long as Paizo remembers that the estimated incidence of non-heterosexuality in humanity is south of 5%-- and thus doesn't stuff their setting to the rafters with the whole spectrum of GLBTOMGWTFBBQ-- I don't have the slightest problem with lesbian queens and lavender paladins.
_And as long as Paizo remembers that the estimated incidence of non-heterosexuality in humanity is south of 5%-- and thus doesn't stuff their setting to the rafters with the whole spectrum of GLBTOMGWTFBBQ-- I don't have the slightest problem with lesbian queens and lavender paladins._
I'm quite sure that the number of outed NPCs are so far waaaaaaaay below that 5%.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just so. In my opinion, it occurs often enough to give the feeling of living in a real world while not so often that we wonder if there's something peculiar in the water. It's inclusive without trying to be "edgy". And I like that.
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
<snippage good writing on beast on human action>
I vaugely remember Keith Baker saying that Eberron dragons look at dragons mating with humans/elves/whatever as akin to beastiality, and it's strongly frowned on.
(I often wondered if instead of the Rage of Dragons, if the Realms had the Rutting of Dragons where they had the compulsion to jump anything with a pulse.)
I know I've taken KB's thoughts on the matter and played with the trope a bit.
Saphire Sage
Alset the Blue