CMB = suggested alteration - Str Mod OR Dex Mod


Combat & Magic

Liberty's Edge

Instead of CMB being just BAB + Str Mod + Size Mod, how about making it Str Mod or Dex Mod, whichever is higher?

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16

Saurstalk wrote:
Instead of CMB being just BAB + Str Mod + Size Mod, how about making it Str Mod or Dex Mod, whichever is higher?

I would make that a feat, like Weapon Finesse. Call it "Combat Finesse," or something.


I like that a lot. Either you're too stable to be tripped or too agile. Either your grip is too good to be easily disarmed, or you're fingers are too clever. Hell, I wouldn't even bother with a feat, I'd just make it a normal rule.


There's a feat that let's you use Dex instead.

Liberty's Edge

Velderan wrote:
I like that a lot. Either you're too stable to be tripped or too agile. Either your grip is too good to be easily disarmed, or you're fingers are too clever. Hell, I wouldn't even bother with a feat, I'd just make it a normal rule.

That's my point. Other posters are saying make a feat or alternatively, there's already a feat for this. We don't need no stinking feat. Fact is, do it this way and it's yet another streamlining improvement on the game. K.I.S.S.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

What about both? Str + Dex?

The Exchange

I would think that STR+Dex would just be too much. I like the idea of keeping it a feat because you would have to take the training to use your dexterity to overcome a test of strength.


fliprushman wrote:
I like the idea of keeping it a feat because you would have to take the training to use your dexterity to overcome a test of strength.

Likewise, with the increase in the number of feats PF has gained, I believe it would spur players to "splurge" on something different for their characters.

Also, with the rational that CMB should be modified by EITHER Str or Dex, it would be just a step away from applying the same argument towards light weapon use. Thus negating the Weapon Finesse feat.

From there, where would it end?


As has been recommended elsewhere, I would roll Weapon Finesse and Agile Manuevers into one feat.


I was always the meaning of making DEX the main ability for all melee actions and not STR.
Sure STR will make you hit faster, but I really think since melee is not only about the actual swinging of the weapon but also to get into the right position and the famous and often forgotten legwork, it should be DEX.

Liberty's Edge

DracoDruid wrote:

I was always the meaning of making DEX the main ability for all melee actions and not STR.

Sure STR will make you hit faster, but I really think since melee is not only about the actual swinging of the weapon but also to get into the right position and the famous and often forgotten legwork, it should be DEX.

I don't disagree with you, but fear that may be too far a leap for Paizo and backwards compatability. However, allowing either Str or Dex to modify CMB isn't, particularly since CMB will be new to the game.


Saurstalk wrote:
However, allowing either Str or Dex to modify CMB isn't, particularly since CMB will be new to the game.

I do still stand by the idea of creating rules with exceptions, is not good for the game as a whole. In fact it confuses the matter more.

Take this "simple" rule in spelling... "I before E, except after C". Even then we have exceptions to the rule: Receive vs Reciever.

If we are going to start creating exceptions to the rule, we may as well take it as far as it will go:

Modifier_________ Action
Str or Dex = = = = = CMB
Wis or Cha = = = = = Will saves
Str or Dex = = = = = Attack Rolls
Dex or Int = = = = = Initiative
d12 vs d10 = = = = = Barbarian hp (they are very hardy)
d4 vs d6 = = = = = = Wizard hp (book learned and not hardy)
________________________________________________

Personally, keep the option to use a different stat as a feat, representing some aspect of special training you have received.

Sovereign Court

CMB - ? Jason, are there combat maneuvers that should be modified by DEX, not STR to calculate the CMB. I'm hoping we keep the simple rule of Base+STR+SZ, but a player asked me if DEX should be used in stead for dex-related combat maneuvers...?

Liberty's Edge

Pathos wrote:
Wis or Cha = = = = = Will saves

I see merit to your other points, although hps don't really fit into the mix. But this one is over my head.

Liberty's Edge

Saurstalk wrote:
Instead of CMB being just BAB + Str Mod + Size Mod, how about making it Str Mod or Dex Mod, whichever is higher?

I like this.

It shouldn't require a feat.

I think this and the effect for Weapon Finesse should be in the rules for free.

It reminds me of the two options for "Favored Class" that every race now has in Pathfinder RPG.

Remember, there is nothing more "3.x" than OPTIONS...


I think we could easily integrate DEX for CMB into Weapon Finesse.

Liberty's Edge

In 3.5, combat maneuvers (Bull Rush, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder and Trip), except for Feint, were special melee attacks or Strength checks. In most cases the melee attacks were Strength-based, unless the weapon used for the attack had Weapon Finesse applied to it (esp. Disarm and Sunder)

I would therefore be in favour of adding the following clarification to allow the use of the Dexterity modifier for some combat maneuvers:

CMB = Base attack bonus + Strength modifier + special size modifier

The Dexterity modifier can be used instead of the Strength modifier for the Disarm, Sunder and Trip combat maneuvers if the attacker has the Weapon Finesse feat for the weapon used to perform the combat maneuver.

(posted in New Rule suggestions here)

For Grapple under 3.5, Weapon Finesse could be used only for the melee touch attack to grab the target. Since Alpha 2 collapsed the Grab and Hold stages into one, I would exclude the possibility to use the Dexterity modifier for Grapple.


DracoDruid wrote:

I was always the meaning of making DEX the main ability for all melee actions and not STR.

Sure STR will make you hit faster, but I really think since melee is not only about the actual swinging of the weapon but also to get into the right position and the famous and often forgotten legwork, it should be DEX.

I would like to see Dexteirty become the the attack ability myself. Strength as the attack bonus has never sat well with me, even with how attack rolls are defined in D&D/D20. I know many would not care for it, but personally I wouldnt mind the average of the Str Bonus and the Dex Bonus being the melee attack bonus and average of Dexteirty and Wisdom (in the aspect of awareness). With two feats for melee, Weapon Finesse for light weapons that changed it entirely to Dexterity and Brutal Fighter that changed it entirely to Strength for heavier weapons. Same as I like the idea of Strength as the basic damage bonus but would like to see an optional feat that instead added Intelligence.

-Weylin Stormcrowe

Liberty's Edge

DracoDruid wrote:

[...]

I was always the meaning of making DEX the main ability for all melee actions and not STR.
[...]
Weylin Stormcrowe 798 wrote:

[...]

I would like to see Dexteirty become the the attack ability myself.
[...]

May I suggest a new thread? The quoted suggestions make Dexterity the base ability for hitting things up close, hitting things from a distance and avoiding being hit from up close and from a distance. This implies a thorough redesign of how combat works and takes us away from the discussion on the CMB.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Skjaldbakka wrote:
As has been recommended elsewhere, I would roll Weapon Finesse and Agile Manuevers into one feat.

I don't like the idea of rolling them into one feat. Agile Manuevers and Weapon Finese are far from the same types of combat. Your ability to do fancy swiping with a rapier doesn't mean you're good at bullrushing someone. Agile Maneuvers makes sense.

Liberty's Edge

I just read up Agile Maneuvers on page 50:

You have learned to use your quickness in place of brute force when performing combat maneuvers.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your combat maneuver bonus (see the Combat chapter) instead of your Strength bonus.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your combat maneuver bonus.

After feeling silly for missing this, I must say I haven't changed my mind on the usage of Dex in combat. I don't see how it's possible to Bull Rush, Overrun or Grapple a target using Dexterity.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Locworks wrote:
After feeling silly for missing this, I must say I haven't changed my mind on the usage of Dex in combat. I don't see how it's possible to Bull Rush, Overrun or Grapple a target using Dexterity.

Sure it does, if Jackie Chan were to Bull Rush someone, do you think he'd do it like Arnold would, or do you think he'd do it acrobatically? The point is, Agile Maneuver lets the acrobats use that to their advantage.. I do not however believe Weapon Finese and Agile Maneuver should be combined.

Liberty's Edge

I just think that some maneuvers are inherently Strength-based and that no amount of training would allow the attacker to use his or her agility to perform them effectively. Grappling or bull rushing acrobatically is not something I find workable. A light dexterous fighter (Jackie) is more likely to be good at disarming, feinting, or tripping his opponents, while his heavy counterpart (Arnold) would turn his bulk and strength to squeezing the life out of the opposition or to trampling them.

Melee attack rolls which use the Dexterity modifier (Weapon Finesse) can only be performed by specific weapons (light weapons, rapier, whip, spiked chain and natural weapons). For heavier weapons, Dexterity is not an option. I'd simply extend that same limitation for the calculation of an offensive CMB.

Allowing Dexterity to be used for all maneuvers would mechanically be similar to allowing Weapon Finesse for all kinds of weapons.

See new rule here


Locworks wrote:

I just read up Agile Maneuvers on page 50:

You have learned to use your quickness in place of brute force when performing combat maneuvers.
Benefit: You add your Dexterity bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your combat maneuver bonus (see the Combat chapter) instead of your Strength bonus.
Normal: You add your Strength bonus to your base attack bonus and size bonus when determining your combat maneuver bonus.

After feeling silly for missing this, I must say I haven't changed my mind on the usage of Dex in combat. I don't see how it's possible to Bull Rush, Overrun or Grapple a target using Dexterity.

Easy to see Bull Rush, Overrun and Grapple being Dexterity based. All of those readily cover techniques from Ba Gua, Xing Yi and Taichi Kuan. And those rely on Dexterity over Strength. After seeing a 60 year old man strike someone and send them rolling back ten feet it becomes very easy to see Dex used instad of Strength. Where you hit is often as important as how hard you hit.

-Weylin Stormcrowe


Locworks wrote:
Melee attack rolls which use the Dexterity modifier (Weapon Finesse) can only be performed by specific weapons (light weapons, rapier, whip, spiked chain and natural weapons). For heavier weapons, Dexterity is not an option. I'd simply extend that same limitation for the calculation of an offensive CMB.

Personally I'm in favor of making certain maneuvers "finessable" (like the weapons are) and making Weapon Finesse apply your Dex mod instead of Str for those manevuers (both offensively and defensively).

Then again, I'm also in favour of making maneuvers more like weapons in general, so you'd have feats like Maneuver Proficiency (XXXX) etc, instead of all the Improved XXXX feats. And (logically) things like Maneuver Focus, Maneuver Specialisation, etc. So maybe I'm just a crackpot...

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