Remaining Problematic spells

[Swordslinger]

Overall, the spell changes seem pretty good. Since other people are already talking about the spells that got nerfed (and if those nerfs went too far), I figured I'd bring up spells that I think may still be too powerful.

Here's a list of spells that I found that are still problematic and may warrant some changes still:

• Protection from Evil/Magic circle against evil: The compulsion/charm immunity is crazy powerful.
  
• Astral Projection: I don't really see the changes to this, beyond just adding two negative levels (which can be removed with restoration easily). it's still the "I can't lose" god code that it was before.
  
• Teleport: Lets face it, this one is very problematic, greater teleport as well. From scry and die to 15 minute adventuring day retreat tactics. This one is crazy.
  
• Wall of Force: Still unbreakable and doesn't grant any kind of save. As far as divide and conquer goes it's awesome
  
• Maze: Again, a total fighter hoser with no save.
  
• Otto's Dance: ditto on the no save instant kill spells.
  
• Disjunction: While the changes are kinda nice, it's still a problem to have to roll for each and every magical item you have. For a high level character, you're looking at 15+ rolls per PC, and it's an area spell. Have it just be one saving throw to avoid your items getting taken out. If you fail, all the items get disabled. On a natural 1, one item at random is permanently destroyed.
  
• Solid Fog: This one is a very powerful battlefield control spell. I'm not sure if it's nerf worthy exactly, but it should still be looked into.
  
• Death ward: I disagree with the changes. Not because the spell wasn't broken but because you fixed the wrong part of it. The immunity to death effects was pretty much fine, it's the immunity to energy drain that made death ward crazy powerful, as a great many undead rely almost entirely on energy drain as their only means of hurting foes (like spectres). Instead of being complete immunity it should instead cost you 5 hp for each negative level you'd normally obtain.
  
• Fabricate: The economy destroyer of spells.
  
• Silence: You changed this, but I don't think by enough. It's still a super mage hoser. Personally I'd get rid of the ability to bind silence to objects or creatures and make it an area spell only. The 1 round casting time is good though as it prevents it from being used as an automatic counterspell.
  

I'm sure I missed some in this list, so feel free to add some others if you think of them.

[Evil_Wizards]

There's at least a dozen threats with various spells and proposed fixes. Perhaps we can try to centralize that for ease of reading, either by quoting or by linking.

Evil-Wizards wrote:

(Lesser/Greater) Planar Binding/Ally
Possible problems:
- HD =/= CR =/= usefulness (e. g. Lantern Archon, Efreet)
- abuse of templates (summon a half-fiend-half-dragon-paragon ogre)
- body source for undead creation (animate aforementioned ogre)

Possible fixes:
- limit to CR
- only creatures from Summon Monster can be called
- make Binding a variant use of Summon Monster (calling for 24 h instead of summoning for some rounds)
- costly material component

Animate Dead / Necromancy
Possible problems:
- Limitation to HD has little relation to usefulness of Undead (e. g.: Necromancer 5 animates Pit Fiend Skeleton)
- High-level necromancers have little use for Skeletons/Zombies and no practical mean of controlling other undead

Possible fix:
- give Skeleton/Zombie template meaninful CRs, then tie limits of Animate Dead to CR
- make undead created with Create (Greater) Undead fall under the animation control limit
- limit HD of creatable undead to Caster Level for skeletons, Caster Level x 2 for zombies; remove limit of 20 HD for skeletons/zombies
- Make Animate Dead & Create Undead an Item Creation Feat, discussed here:
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/newRules/moveSimulacrumAndCloneToItemCreationCraftGolemA ndPerhapsUndead

Rope Trick
Possible problems:
- very powerful for 2nd level spell (compare to Leomund's huts)

Possible fix:
- reduce duration to 10 min./level
- move to level 4 or 5
- costly material component or focus

---

Animated Shield
Possible problems:
- screws balance between one- and two-handed weapons/two-weapon-fighting

Possible fix:
- remove item

Bag of Holding & Teleport
Possible problems:
- Bag of Holding can be used to practically increase capacity of Teleport spells (army climbs into bag, wizard takes bag, teleports, army climbs out of bag)

Possible fix:
- Creatures cannot enter Bag of Holding
- Teleport limit counts creatures inside carried equipment

[Evil_Wizards]

Stephen Klauk wrote:

Flaming Sphere: With a movement rate of 30 ft. and Reflex negates on damage, this spell is easy to outrun/outmanuever and avoid damage. It should probably move at least 50 ft. a round and have a save of Reflex half.

Helping Hand: As written, I'd rather just use the 1st level spell, Message and tell someone how to find me. The "time to locate" table should be scrapped - this is a magic spell, the hand should just magically manifest at the location of the spell's target. It would also be nice if the spell compels the target to follow the hand if they fail a Will save - but restrict the hand to directing the target along the safest route to the caster, and if the intention is to ambush/attack the target it automatically fails (no sending it to the hideout of the BBEG and forcing him to come to you).

Taken from here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/newRules/spellThatCouldUseSomeHelp

Archade has written up a proposal for a new Reincarnate here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/newRules/revisedReincarnate

SirUrza argues that Sleep and Deep Slumber should affect the creature in the centre of its effect first, instead of affecting those with the lowest HD first, here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/newRules/changeSleepDeepSlumberPlease

Stephen Klauk has updated Permanency here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/newRules/permanentSpells

Robert Brambley shows a problem with Polymorph: huge creatures get a Strength bonus by changing into smaller creatures, vice versa for tiny ones and Dexterity.

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/combatMagic/hugePolymorphLoopholeVariousPages

K proposed to make Scry being blocked by dungeons walls; the discussion can be enjoyed here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/newRules/scryAndDieSolution

Stephen Klauk suggests making Simulacrum, Clone and possibly Animate Dead/Create Undead Item creation feats here:

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizoPublishing/pathfinder/pathfinderR PG/feedback/alpha2/newRules/moveSimulacrumAndCloneToItemCreationCraftGolemA ndPerhapsUndead

[Jason C Scott]

There is a common theme in most broken rules/spells etc. They often have the words immunity, always or no save in them.

If we replace immunity to elemental damage with a high resistance bonus say 200 or so and replace other immunities with a save to negate with a large bonus to the saving throw. The simplest way to do this would be to change the definition of immunity in pathfinder.

If we look for instances with always and alter them so that they are opposed rolls with bonuses things become less broken.

A quick fix for spells with no saving throws would be to alter the definition of no-save to have it reflect a save allowed at a +10/15 or 20 to the DC. This would allow classic spells that have no saving throw and are not currently problematic to function closer to the way they were intended and mitigate some of the damage the problematic spells do.

None of these suggestions solve all of the problems we are seeing but I think they are a step in the right direction and would be somewhat easier than altering the text of all spells in the game.

Ideally we would do both, clean up the problematic spells in pathfinder and get our house in order and then alter the definitions so that other problematic spells introduced from elsewhere are less disruptive. Living in an OGL world we have to worry about what problems new materials can introduce.