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Something I came upon when playtesting:
The wizard, with his 0 level cantrip at will ability removed the need for Knock Spell, Open Lock skill, and picks, etc.
Since acid ignores hardness, there was no lock, door, chest, potcullis, wall, etc that he couldn't just "eat" through with his acid. Sure it's only d3 dmg, but most of those locks or bars would have about 10 hit points - and by ignoring hardness, it was just a simple task.
No more beating and banging and chopping down doors - attracting beasties or alerting the residents of a keep; it was just too quiet and too easy. And locks? difficult? good quality? no problem!
I see this as a VERY abuseable issue - and many WILL exploit it.
This prompted me to look at other aspects of the magic system: the Elemental blooded Sorcerer, the Conjuration school Acid Dart ability, the Evocation school energy ray all have the same (and more powerful) type ability.
The Abyssal Acidic touch states that it only affects "living targets" but these others does not make such an addendum.
I said, "I can see there needs to be a change - this will too easily be abused. Portcullises, good locks, chests w/ locks etc are part of the diffuclty factor of an adventure/dungeon etc. Whats the point of the DM having these barriers - needing a key, needing a rogue's lockpicks with maximized potential etc in order to overcome these obstacles?"
the wizard player said, "I've never seen a barrier, door or lock or whatever that a group of players couldn't come up with a way to get through it. This is just quicker and not as much noise."
I said, "Well that noise is part of what makes the barrier the challenge. And yes adventuring groups can get crafty and use Dimension Door, Passwall, Knock spell - not with an at will 0 level spell! And if YOU CAN get through every barrier without needing the acid, then you've just proven that we don't need to allow acid to do this...."
Finally I concluded that "Well, in the world we live in, computer/internet crimes are so rampant, we designed ways to prevent it - hackers make viruses, we make anti-viruses....etc.. In a world where this kind of capability is so ramapant, banks are easily broken into, prisoners are freed thanks to their 1st level wizard friends of the guild, kings treasuries are being raided, vault doors are being eaten through etc etc....it wouldn't take long for specialized blacksmiths to be sent to special metalurgy colleges and funded to create "acid-resistant steel" The new rage in Golarion! Now with this newly designed alloy product, your vault doors, your protcullises to your keeps, your chests, and locks and doors will once again be safe from these upstart wizardlings and their acidid touches! And now no structures are built without it!
I can tell the player wasn't too thrilled at the notion of the acid-resistant steel being implemented; but I feel that this may be a drastic step that will need to be taken in many campaigns.
Robert
Good catch on the "loophole". If Jason wants to keep the abilities as they stand now, I see him amending the destrictions so they affect only living creatures.
I guess I'd suggest that acid splash only work on enemies or living creatures, although if you realy have aproblem, just tell the players they can't do that. It's a simple solution. Players can break the rules; just don't let them.
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I guess I'd suggest that acid splash only work on enemies or living creatures, although if you realy have aproblem, just tell the players they can't do that. It's a simple solution. Players can break the rules; just don't let them.
True - but arbitrary rules just irk players that you're trying to be punitive. But creatively coming up with a solution (like acid resistant steel being the find of the century) is something you can get away with.
Regardless, just making it work against living creatures is the best way to make it not be abused.
Robert
Wait, doesn't hardness apply to even acid attacks? From the D&D FAQ:
Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks.
Hardness applies to all attacks against an object. The only thing acid (also sonic and force) do differently is that their damage isn't halved (or quartered) before applying hardness. So you'd still need to do more than 5 damage before you could eat through anything wooden.
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Wait, doesn't hardness apply to even acid attacks? From the D&D FAQ:
Hardness applies to acid and sonic attacks.Hardness applies to all attacks against an object. The only thing acid (also sonic and force) do differently is that their damage isn't halved (or quartered) before applying hardness. So you'd still need to do more than 5 damage before you could eat through anything wooden.
Maybe I need to read more about that FAQ.
That being said - one of the at will abilities still does 1d6 + 1pt / 2 levels - very capable of overcoming that 5 hardness.
Robert
Maybe I need to read more about that FAQ.
That being said - one of the at will abilities still does 1d6 + 1pt / 2 levels - very capable of overcoming that 5 hardness.
Well, as I understand it, the FAQ just clarifies the somewhat ambiguous wording in the PHB.
Acid and sonic attacks deal damage to most objects just as they do to creatures; roll damage and apply it normally after a successful hit. Electricity and fire attacks deal half damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 2 before applying the hardness. Cold attacks deal one-quarter damage to most objects; divide the damage dealt by 4 before applying the hardness.
The FAQ clarifies that "apply it normally" still means to subtract the hardness.
But yeah, if you're doing 1d6 + 1pt / 2 levels it's not that hard to eat through wood. Stone, with hardness 8 and iron/steel with hardness 10 is a little more resilient, but I could see how the ability could cause trouble.
I'd prefer having acid normally ignoring hardness, but with these "at-will" types I'd state it works only on "organic material". This would include i.e. zombies, although they are not living. Makes more sense to me.
Especially with the Aberrant bloodline, since most oozes (I know, not aberrations, but still foreign forms) have acids that only affect some things.
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I'd prefer having acid normally ignoring hardness, but with these "at-will" types I'd state it works only on "organic material". This would include i.e. zombies, although they are not living. Makes more sense to me.
I do too.
What about golems? or Elementals? They're not organic. How would you adjudicat that?
Robert
I do too.
What about golems? or Elementals? They're not organic. How would you adjudicat that?
Robert
Flesh Golems are not organic?
*Sorry, couldn't help myself*
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I'd prefer having acid normally ignoring hardness, but with these "at-will" types I'd state it works only on "organic material". This would include i.e. zombies, although they are not living. Makes more sense to me.I do too.
What about golems? or Elementals? They're not organic. How would you adjudicat that?
Well, the original one said "Living creature". Is a golem living? Or an elemental? Good question. A golem isn't living, Warforged is for that.
Alternatively it could be "any non-object", though it doesn't make much sense when you acid touch burns an iron golem, but you can't get through hewn stone.
If it allows SR, the golem doesn't care anyhow. And an earth elemental could technically be considered organic...in a very long stretch of the term.
For a cantrip, let it be "only works on flesh, no effect on stone, wood, or metal, or any creature composed of those substances". Not like ray of frost works on skeletons. Or disrupt undead on anything that isn't undead.
World versimiltude will rear here. If this is the supremely best way to get through doors, you will start finding new, acid immune doorways, or just a lack of doorways in general. Which changes the way listen checks work. It might even change the culture of the creature that built the dungeon, since a lack of doors implies a lack of privacy. Social creatures might start living in larger communal groups, or they might go the other way and splinter further apart out of a need for privacy. The cost of locks will drop, as they are less in demand as they are less effective. Metal, with its highest hardness, becomes the material of choice for doors and walls. Metal weapons then become more expensive, same for armor.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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ok, on the 1d6+ 1/2 levels vs hardness 5.
1st level avg 3.5 points
2nd level avg 4.5 points
4th level avg 5.5 points
6th level avg 6.5 points
If your sorcerer is trying to acid his way through the door he's going to need to be 4th level to start to have any consistant impact (and still fails to hurt the door half the time) and by then should be using knock.
Plus you're talking on average 20 rounds to break through the wooden door, with (logically) perception checks on the other side of the door every time it's hit. (I'd make the DC 20-damamge dealt)
"Ah hah! it's taken me 2 mintues but I've eaten through the door!"
"Yes, and in those two minutes the 5 hobgoblins have readied actions to shoot the first person they see through the hole. What's your flat footed AC, Acid-Boy?"
I don't think that this is very important. Spending several minutes melting through a door seems less effective than just a quick smash. I would imagine that it would be much more likely for you to be caught trying to melt through the door one shot at a time than just quickly breaking it.
Beating the acid damage is just as easy as getting a better door. It doesn't have to be acid proof, it just needs a extra few points of hardness to aid against everyother type of direct attack on the door.
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Personally, I'd say just keep the rule the way it is - hardness applies normally to acid and sonic damage, just as it does in 3.5. As for the at will splash power, that's kind of the point of the power. If you're willing to melt through all your problems, sprining every trap along the way and drawing perpetual attention to yourself as you do so, then feel free.
not just doors - locks on chests too. I'm concerned the lockpicking skill will no longer be needed.
Robert
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I would point out that just because you melt a lock doesn't mean you've opened it. Locksmiths use acid to open locks, but have to apply it just right or else they end up breaking the mechanism that unlocks the lock. Then you have to smash the chest to get at the stuff inside (hope the loot's not too fragile).Personally, I'd say just keep the rule the way it is - hardness applies normally to acid and sonic damage, just as it does in 3.5. As for the at will splash power, that's kind of the point of the power. If you're willing to melt through all your problems, sprining every trap along the way and drawing perpetual attention to yourself as you do so, then feel free.not just doors - locks on chests too. I'm concerned the lockpicking skill will no longer be needed.
I'm not trying to be difficult - just playing devils advocate here - because players are going to push the issue - so why do I need to melt the lock? why not the hinge? or the lid?
Wouldn't it simply be easier to avoid all of the possible loopholes if the ability descriptions simply said - 'cannot be used in this way' (however it needs to be worded)
And I'm only concerned about those 1st level - can use it at will as often as they want - abilties...
Robert
I'm not trying to be difficult - just playing devils advocate here - because players are going to push the issue - so why do I need to melt the lock? why not the hinge? or the lid?
Wouldn't it simply be easier to avoid all of the possible loopholes if the ability descriptions simply said - 'cannot be used in this way' (however it needs to be worded)
And I'm only concerned about those 1st level - can use it at will as often as they want - abilties...
Robert
Can't the players just use a dagger just as well on those hinges as well then?
At first level I'm not sure which at will abilities would be able to melt through any hinges.
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I don't think this is a gamebreaker. The damage is minimal, and is less effective than smashing the objects open in the first place. Also, casting a spell is easily audible:
To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice.
I would imagine that hearing someone talking in a strong voice would be a base DC 0 Perception check for anyone within 10 feet. It's not as low as striking the door might be (DC -10), but still very easily overheard.
As for the spell-like ability that causes direct damage (mentioned above), it's true that it has no Verbal component, so it can't be overheard that way, but I imagine that the actual impact of the attack on the object might be audible, perhaps a DC 5 or 10 Perception check. At the same time, the damage is not nearly as much as a Fighter or Barbarian could do.
At 4th level, the Evoker blasts for 1d6+2 points of damage. At the same time, a Fighter could easily strike a door with a greataxe for 1d12+12 damage (avg 18.5) using Power Attack. He'll make much quicker work out of the door, and although he might draw more attention, at least he can get the job done in less than a minute.
For all these reasons, I don't see this as being much of a concern for people in the world. Not only are Wizards not so ubiquitous as to influence the need for acid-proof doors, they also are generally no more effective at breaking down doors with their unlimited cantrips as a warrior with a good club might be.