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Just wrapped up a 3rd level adventure featuring a barbarian as the main player character. Orginally stated using 3.5, but upgraded to PRPG at 2nd level. I will break down things further points into Comments and Questions.
Character Generation
Comment: Backwards Compatability
First off, backwards compatability was not an issue: working out the total rage points was easy, and selected one rage power from a small list.
Question: Rage Feats
My player brought up this point: Several 3.5 Supplements offer Rage Feats (obviously not OGL). However, would it be possible to offer altered version of these feats using rage points? For example, rather than more uses of rage per day in a certain feat, you get a flat number of rage points for taking the feat.
Levelling
Comment: Reward/Balance
The player's first comment was "Man, now I want to stay as Barbarian just to get the rage points! We also found that the point/power payoff made each level meaningful. We played with the extra PRPG feats, which seemed to increase low-level survivability. EDIT: Also, the new barbarian did not play "overpowered" from other incarnations, just different.
Question: Prestige
Jason, I know you haven't started working on PrCs yet, but would you consider using rage points as a prerequisite? And how would a PrC with rage work using rage points/power progression?
Gameplay
Comment: Adventure Day
The barbarians practicality was greatly increased by the rage points. A second level barbarian was raging 3 times per day in different encounters. During one encounter at the end of the day, actually ran out of rage points fighting a Worg. The result was catastrophic: fatigued, tripped, and reduced to 1 hit point (but still defeated the worg). The experience made the player very fond of the rage points, which allowed him flexibility in his use of rage, but also increased the level of skill required in resource management. Combat changed from "I rage." to "I rage. I keep raging. I use my powerfful blow..."
In the final encounter, it was a 3rd level Bugbear Barbarian against the 3rd level Neanderthal Barbarian. The result was an equal footing between the two combatants, with the PC having backup from a Favored Soul healer. As a DM, converting the 3.5 villain took 15 seconds on the fly.
Question: Power Style
Although at 4th level the PC selected the Swift Foot power, I was wondering if there could be more feats focused on defensive abilities and mobility? I found it was too easy for the PC to fall into the "stand there and hit it" routine. Perhaps a power that allows a fort save to take half damage? Or one that allows the character to charge over rough terrain or while making direction changes? I always picture barbarians as running Stygia-bent to their foes, charging over or through obstacles...hmm, a thought occurs: "Reckless Charge" as a swift action, the barbarian may make one overrun during a charge while raging (6 points)
Overall, going in I liked the concept of rage points and powers, but did not know how it would play (if it would play FUN). Let me say, Jason, both the player and the DM had more fun with rage points than any other barbarian we had played/run. My general comment would be more varied/unique rage powers (especially at lower and higher levels).
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1) I think the barbarian and paladin both need a stack of power-related feats to help them out and offer added flexibility and character options. Feats adding points to the rage pool would be a great idea, as well as possibly slightly more powerful options to spend those rage points on.
2) I am VERY glad to hear that the rage points make for a more useful barbarian. I am converting a character in my game to it now and I think he's going to love it.
Although I liked a lot of the rage points, I don´t like the way it works now.
2+Con every level is arbitrary. What if someone has con 18 and othe character has only 14?
And what happens when a character gets a Periapt oh Health +4 at lvl 8 and another one gets only at lvl 12??? The latter will be crippled because of that?
I believe these rage points should be a fixed amount, like spell points from Unearthed Arcana.
What are your thoughts?
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Although I liked a lot of the rage points, I don´t like the way it works now.
2+Con every level is arbitrary. What if someone has con 18 and othe character has only 14?
And what happens when a character gets a Periapt oh Health +4 at lvl 8 and another one gets only at lvl 12??? The latter will be crippled because of that?
I believe these rage points should be a fixed amount, like spell points from Unearthed Arcana.
What are your thoughts?
That this is exactly the same as what happened in 3E where the length of rage was determined by your Con bonus. All rage points do is allow you to play more with your rages at higher levels, for example stopping a rage early if you win, continuing to rage if you've been unlucky with the rolls or trying out a cool rage manoeuvre.
In making Rage points retroactive like hit points and (now) skill points, there is no real loss for getting improvements (too) late.
Actually, I had my concerns with the use of rage points and am still not sure if I like em. Though your post made me a bit more hopeful.
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Although I liked a lot of the rage points, I don´t like the way it works now.
2+Con every level is arbitrary. What if someone has con 18 and othe character has only 14?
And what happens when a character gets a Periapt oh Health +4 at lvl 8 and another one gets only at lvl 12??? The latter will be crippled because of that?
I believe these rage points should be a fixed amount, like spell points from Unearthed Arcana.
What are your thoughts?
I'd say no to fixed amounts. The influence by modifiers is a good representation of difference between individuals - in a tribe, the 18 Con barbarian stands out from his pals which average 15-16 Con, and he's considered favored by the ancestors and destined for great things.
The various abilities and their modifiers should keep a hefty weight in portraing what a character can do, why he's different from others, etc.
You rolled 3 stats over 16? Good for you, lucky.
You spent a good lot of your available points to buy a good stat value? Way to go with your concept for this character, dude.
I don't really want a clone army of quasi-identical PCs/NPCs: "he's a 5th level barbarian, he can rage only for this much time after ghe uses this power!". No, thanks. Leads to nasty metagaming. It's better to have a small amount of arbitrary uncertainity.
Won't go in the territory of magic items, as this is more related to matters of personal style of gaming, and what a DM wans to do with his/hers campaign, be it magic rich or not.
Also, I don't really like the idea that a player plans to gain a specific stat-boosting item around a given level. To me, that's is definitively in the area of influence of the DM and how he balances out resources available and the enemy power level.
Although I liked a lot of the rage points, I don´t like the way it works now.
2+Con every level is arbitrary. What if someone has con 18 and othe character has only 14?
And what happens when a character gets a Periapt oh Health +4 at lvl 8 and another one gets only at lvl 12??? The latter will be crippled because of that?
I believe these rage points should be a fixed amount, like spell points from Unearthed Arcana.
What are your thoughts?
I'd say no to fixed amounts. The influence by modifiers is a good representation of difference between individuals - in a tribe, the 18 Con barbarian stands out from his pals which average 15-16 Con, and he's considered favored by the ancestors and destined for great things.
The various abilities and their modifiers should keep a hefty weight in portraing what a character can do, why he's different from others, etc.
You rolled 3 stats over 16? Good for you, lucky.
You spent a good lot of your available points to buy a good stat value? Way to go with your concept for this character, dude.I don't really want a clone army of quasi-identical PCs/NPCs: "he's a 5th level barbarian, he can rage only for this much time after ghe uses this power!". No, thanks. Leads to nasty metagaming. It's better to have a small amount of arbitrary uncertainity.
Won't go in the territory of magic items, as this is more related to matters of personal style of gaming, and what a DM wans to do with his/hers campaign, be it magic rich or not.
Also, I don't really like the idea that a player plans to gain a specific stat-boosting item around a given level. To me, that's is definitively in the area of influence of the DM and how he balances out resources available and the enemy power level.
I´m sorry but I can´t agree.
It´s still very arbitrary.
What happens when a group starts a game at lvl 14?
The player buys all the character´s equipment, including a peripat of health +6 and all that and then he wonders:
"How many rage points I have? Do I add the bonuses to con from the periapt only now or I try to figure it out a lvl that my character would have got it if I played from the beggining?"
Too much arbitrary.
It needs to be a fixed point.
I´d like to know the thoughts of Pathfinder´s writers about this matter.
P.S.: The Druid is a nother troublemaker. The wildshape is better now, but with natural spell and an animal companion he will still be an army of his own.
Wouldn't the extra rage points from the item be retroactive? All you need to do is wear the item for 24 hours to attune yourself to it.
Wouldn't the extra rage points from the item be retroactive? All you need to do is wear the item for 24 hours to attune yourself to it.
The Pathfinder book doens´t say it´s retroactive. It would be a house rule, but I´d prefer an official stance.
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The new Barbarian is the class that's most captured my imagination. We're starting a low-level playtest soon, and one of the players is considering either a human or dwarf Barbarian.
Doing some theoretical number-crunching over the past few days, it seems like rages in which rage powers are used will be dramatically cut short, especially for those who don't go "all Con."
My thought at the moment is that rage points should increase at a fixed rate, but that Constitution at the time a rage begins would determine its base length--with rage points expended to extend it. That'd take care of some of the "messy math" noted just above, and still ensure that the toughest Barbarians (i.e. highest Con) stand out.
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I´m sorry but I can´t agree.
It´s still very arbitrary.
What happens when a group starts a game at lvl 14?
The player buys all the character´s equipment, including a peripat of health +6 and all that and then he wonders:
"How many rage points I have? Do I add the bonuses to con from the periapt only now or I try to figure it out a lvl that my character would have got it if I played from the beggining?"
Too much arbitrary.
It needs to be a fixed point.
I´d like to know the thoughts of Pathfinder´s writers about this matter.
P.S.: The Druid is a nother troublemaker. The wildshape is better now, but with natural spell and an animal companion he will still be an army of his own.
Again, the player can buy the +6 score boosting item only if I, as the DM (example) allow it so.
Then it is only fair that the individual responsible to decide at which level the character gained the aforementioned item is the same DM.A good compromise is calculated on item cost, and relative availability of money on the standard character gold table.
So, if the +6 magic item ranges in the 36k gold, the character could have bought/obtained it at 9th level.
I´m sorry but I can´t agree.
It´s still very arbitrary.
What happens when a group starts a game at lvl 14?
The player buys all the character´s equipment, including a peripat of health +6 and all that and then he wonders:
"How many rage points I have? Do I add the bonuses to con from the periapt only now or I try to figure it out a lvl that my character would have got it if I played from the beggining?"
Too much arbitrary.
It needs to be a fixed point.
I´d like to know the thoughts of Pathfinder´s writers about this matter.
P.S.: The Druid is a nother troublemaker. The wildshape is better now, but with natural spell and an animal companion he will still be an army of his own.
Again, the player can buy the +6 score boosting item only if I, as the DM (example) allow it so.
Then it is only fair that the individual responsible to decide at which level the character gained the aforementioned item is the same DM.A good compromise is calculated on item cost, and relative availability of money on the standard character gold table.
So, if the +6 magic item ranges in the 36k gold, the character could have bought/obtained it at 9th level.
Yes, but you´re talking about your game and not everybody´s game.
What I mean is that it may works to you doing all those decisions of when his character will get an item or when he won it or something similar. But not everyone´s like that.
You have to keep in your mind that the game changes from group to group and an universal rule to rage point would make it easier for all.
Firstly I'd like to comment that I like how rage points are calculated now and I don't really see the problem. The paladin's lay on hands is a factor of his charisma, so is the cleric's channel energy. If you made it fixed then the barbarian wouldn't be as con focused and would only have to worry about strength thereby becoming SAD. However, I would like to see an official stance on retroactive rage points, I too would houserule them in and it makes sense with all the other retroactive points we have already.
Secondly, I would like to ask the OP what rage powers were used, how often and what did you (and the player) think of the cost for each?
According to page 116, Ability bonuses that last longer than 24 hrs actually increase the relevant score. Just as Ability Drain is considered to actually reduce the relevant score.
On page 8 under Rage, "Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase a barbarian's total number of rage points.
There for since a Belt of Mighty Constitution worn by a barbarian after 24hrs is no longer considered a temporary bonus it increases his total number of rage points. Just placing stat points in Constitution will raise a barbarians total number of rage points. Constitution was already retroactive when it came to hit points, so the fact that such increases and descreases would also affect Rage Points is no stretch of the rules.
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Yes, but you´re talking about your game and not everybody´s game.
What I mean is that it may works to you doing all those decisions of when his character will get an item or when he won it or something similar. But not everyone´s like that.
You have to keep in your mind that the game changes from group to group and an universal rule to rage point would make it easier for all.
Obviously it is something that fits more my own personal tastes.
I could say the same for the fixed amount proposal, that could make calculating rage points easier but at the same time flatten out a lot of individuality and potential differencies (and thus characterization) for both PCs and NPCs.
To me the potential loss of variety implied in ruling out the ability modifier while gaining a simpler but not flexible enough system, does not compete with writing a couple of more lines to clarify retroactive bonuses and doing some more math when creating higher level characters.
In other words, losing some arbitrary factors could ease up some stuff, but losing all of them is no good thing either, as it encourages what I see as potentially bad metagaming (again, the quasi-automatic assumptions on character abilites/powers based just on their level).
To the OP, sorry for the threadjack.
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According to page 116, Ability bonuses that last longer than 24 hrs actually increase the relevant score. Just as Ability Drain is considered to actually reduce the relevant score.
On page 8 under Rage, "Temporary increases to Constitution, such as those gained from rage and spells like bear's endurance, do not increase a barbarian's total number of rage points.
There for since a Belt of Mighty Constitution worn by a barbarian after 24hrs is no longer considered a temporary bonus it increases his total number of rage points. Just placing stat points in Constitution will raise a barbarians total number of rage points. Constitution was already retroactive when it came to hit points, so the fact that such increases and descreases would also affect Rage Points is no stretch of the rules.
Not only is it not a stretch of the rules, it's directly addressed under the Ability Bonuses section of the Glossary chapter:
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than one day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.
Emphasis mine. Just like you get bonus skill points retroactively, you get everything else retroactively too, including additional rage points. (It even looks like increases to Intelligence grant you additional languages known, which is interesting.) It does not matter in the slightest what level you gained the rage points, you calculate them as if you had had your current Constitution score the entire time.
Not only is it not a stretch of the rules, it's directly addressed under the Ability Bonuses section of the Glossary chapter:
Ability bonuses with a duration greater than one day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses.Emphasis mine. Just like you get bonus skill points retroactively, you get everything else retroactively too, including additional rage points. (It even looks like increases to Intelligence grant you additional languages known, which is interesting.) It does not matter in the slightest what level you gained the rage points, you calculate them as if you had had your current Constitution score the entire time.
If you go striaght by the rules, this is true. However, for example, with increasd languages, it is a DM's right to rule that does not happen if it makes no sense.
I agree, though, they are gained retroactively, like skill points.
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I´m sorry but I can´t agree.
It´s still very arbitrary.
What happens when a group starts a game at lvl 14?
The player buys all the character´s equipment, including a peripat of health +6 and all that and then he...
Uh, how is that any different from the rogue's player investing in Weapon Finesse and maxing out his DEX with items and stat bumps -- especially now that he can Sneak Attack almost every creature in the game? In 3E, whenever given the chance to create high-level characters, the players in my group have maxed out a single stat with bumps and items -- usually to try out a ludicrously single-minded and abusive character concept that they would never try to build up from level 1.
And just as I don't like the idea of fixed HPs at every level, I'd like to see CON bonus affecting the barbarian's Rage Points. All the spellcasters get their bonus ranks based on their "prime" ability score, so why wouldn't the barbarian benefit the same way? I like the idea of bonus Rage Points derived from CON, and I'd personally hate to see every same level barbarian being equally
In 3E, the barbarian was far less dependant on CON, which in my experience translated into everyone maxing out STR. Which, in turn, also usually meant picking half-orc for your race. If we're going to see as many dwarf barbarians as half-orcs from now on, I think it's a good development.
Let's also remember that if a player doesn't want to invest in an ability score that's relevant to his character's class features, it's his choice. You can always create a fighter with STR 10 and INT 18, if you want to. If you want to create an elven barbarian with STR 18 and CON 6, well, you *should* feel less effective while raging. And let's not forget that every race gets +2 to ability scores now, which results is slightly higher ability scores than in 3E.
I am worried about the backwards compatability. We have a few PRCs that are made for the barbarian class, and with this new point system this makes a need to convert or at least a side bar to handle the new system.
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I thought I should comment from my playtest experience working with the Rage Points.
First: The flat points per level would simplify things, but it would also make things uninteresting. The +Con rule gives meshes well with other class abilities. Overall, flat points would have saved perhaps 5 seconds at the table when I converted the NPC villain.
Second: My group never brought up the retroactive issue (we assumed they were), but it is a very good one. I think Jason could fix this easily with one line of text.Personally it was easier to figure out as retroactive (especially for building high-level NPCs).
Third: Combat was indeed shorter when using powers. But only when using the more impactful/costly powers, and only at very low levels. By third level the amount of rage points reaches a comfort zone. And overall, it was balanced by the option to rage much longer or more often than a standard 3.X Barbarian.